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E2.50 pints should be outlawed, says FG TD

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    #272
    Beano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭Beano


    The_Captain wrote: »
    If the feet in the door are anything to go by, Dubs are happier with €2.50 pints of generic beer than €5.40 Heineken

    there is nothing generic about the beer that wetherspoons are selling for 2.50


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    #273
    keeponhurling
    Registered Users Posts: 5,149 ✭✭✭keeponhurling


    The_Captain wrote: »
    If the feet in the door are anything to go by, Dubs are happier with €2.50 pints of generic beer than €5.40 Heineken

    Something like Starpromen is no more generic than Heineken or Guinness.

    Both are mass produced in their own origin countries.

    Wetherspoons are not selling only "craft beers", or even trying to pretend they are.


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    #274
    keeponhurling
    Registered Users Posts: 5,149 ✭✭✭keeponhurling


    There's actuaslly huge potential for expansion for Wehterspoons in Ireland.

    They're focussing on Dublin and Cork, but they would do well in the towns as well, the likes of Ennis, Navan, Castlebar etc.


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    #275
    Highflyer13
    Closed Accounts Posts: 954 ✭✭✭Highflyer13


    keeponhurling wrote: »
    There's actuaslly huge potential for expansion for Wehterspoons in Ireland.

    They're focussing on Dublin and Cork, but they would do well in the towns as well, the likes of Ennis, Navan, Castlebar etc.

    They would do well in every town across Ireland. The more I think of it, I can see why the Vintners are so worried. F**k em, it will be their own undoing.


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    #276
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users Posts: 13,983 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    One thing that surprises me about the Witherspoon's in Dun Laoghaire is that its pretty busy during the day and through the night every day of the week. Outside of Friday/Saturday nearly every other pub in the area is close to empty and that's not exactly a new thing since opening. Their business model of low prices high volume is working extremely well. And the free publicity provided by TD's is helping them greatly. Worst thing the other publicans could have done was to try put public pressure out there.

    Personally I would easily head to Witherspoon's for a pint or two and some food to catch up with a friend. I would not consider any other location at the moment. Its a no brainer for me.


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    #277
    Menas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,318 ✭✭✭✭Menas


    Highflyer13 wrote: »
    They would do well in every town across Ireland. The more I think of it, I can see why the Vintners are so worried. F**k em, it will be their own undoing.

    Absolutely.
    Isnt it great to see a chain of bars that sells a great range of beers at great prices in a nice setting with no TVs or music etc?
    And isnt it great that they may just force the incumbent vintners to look at their own business model and maybe realise that they need to up their game?
    Its feckin fantastic!


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    #278
    Richard Hillman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    keeponhurling wrote: »
    Something like Starpromen is no more generic than Heineken or Guinness.

    Both are mass produced in their own origin countries.

    Wetherspoons are not selling only "craft beers", or even trying to pretend they are.

    Have you even been there yet? I was there a couple of weeks ago and had 4 different pints of beers that I had never drunk before or even heard of 3 of them. There is nothing generic about it as an Irish outlet.


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    #279
    Highflyer13
    Closed Accounts Posts: 954 ✭✭✭Highflyer13


    Dave147 wrote: »
    So if we pay ~ €200 for a keg of Heineken, and manage to get 88 pints out of the keg, which we won't. So the pint is costing us €2.27 to buy, and you expect us to sell it on for €2.50? Are you ****ing mad? We charge €4.20 and cannot possibly sell it any cheaper.

    Ye lads need to get organised and come together as a Co-Op type group to increase your buying power if you want to compete in the future otherwise Wetherspoons will quickly take over.


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    #280
    The_Captain
    Registered Users Posts: 1,376 ✭✭✭The_Captain


    Beano wrote: »
    there is nothing generic about the beer that wetherspoons are selling for 2.50


    I mean generic as in off-brand, not implying it's poor quality


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    #281
    Beano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭Beano


    The_Captain wrote: »
    I mean generic as in off-brand, not implying it's poor quality

    that is not what generic means.


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    #282
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,237 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Dave147 wrote: »
    So if we pay ~ €200 for a keg of Heineken, and manage to get 88 pints out of the keg, which we won't. So the pint is costing us €2.27 to buy, and you expect us to sell it on for €2.50? Are you ****ing mad? We charge €4.20 and cannot possibly sell it any cheaper.

    This comes down to Diageo riding you on the initial price and you and the rest of the vitner trade happy to be ridden for the same narrow range of overpriced swill. There are many other lagers out there in this world.

    I don't mean you ill will, but I certainly would welcome Diageo taking a battering as they nearly eradicated the notion of alchohol choice in this country.


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    #283
    Menas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,318 ✭✭✭✭Menas


    Dave147 wrote: »
    So if we pay ~ €200 for a keg of Heineken, and manage to get 88 pints out of the keg, which we won't. So the pint is costing us €2.27 to buy, and you expect us to sell it on for €2.50? Are you ****ing mad? We charge €4.20 and cannot possibly sell it any cheaper.

    What strikes me as madness is that they are making you pay more for your beer than I can buy the same beer in Tesco for. Or from any off licence for that matter.

    I know that a pint of beer from a keg is nicer than from a can, but not that different.


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    #284
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,600 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Trigger Happy wrote: »
    What strikes me as madness is that they are making you pay more for your beer than I can buy the same beer in Tesco for. Or from any off licence for that matter.

    I know that a pint of beer from a keg is nicer than from a can, but not that different.

    To be fair there is a service there as well that you do not get in Tesco or elsewhere including the cleaning of the bar, a place to stay indoors and socialise that the ultimate responsibility to maintain does not fall at your feet, as well as the cleaning of the glasses and a number of other factors.

    I certainly will always expect to pay more in a Pub than an off license, just not as much as some Publicans would like me too.


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    #285
    Menas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,318 ✭✭✭✭Menas


    CramCycle wrote: »
    To be fair there is a service there as well that you do not get in Tesco or elsewhere including the cleaning of the bar, a place to stay indoors and socialise that the ultimate responsibility to maintain does not fall at your feet, as well as the cleaning of the glasses and a number of other factors.

    I certainly will always expect to pay more in a Pub than an off license, just not as much as some Publicans would like me too.

    I am talking about his quoted cost price of €2.27 per pint. That is what he pays the brewery independant of tax, vat, costs, profit.


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    #286
    matrim
    Registered Users Posts: 7,517 ✭✭✭matrim


    CramCycle wrote: »
    To be fair there is a service there as well that you do not get in Tesco or elsewhere including the cleaning of the bar, a place to stay indoors and socialise that the ultimate responsibility to maintain does not fall at your feet, as well as the cleaning of the glasses and a number of other factors.

    I certainly will always expect to pay more in a Pub than an off license, just not as much as some Publicans would like me too.

    I think he means that Heineken are charging the publican 2.27 per pint in a keg but you can pick up a 500ml can of Heineken in Tesco for about 1.50


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    #287
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,600 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Trigger Happy wrote: »
    I am talking about his quoted cost price of €2.27 per pint. That is what he pays the brewery independant of tax, vat, costs, profit.

    Sorry, that's not the way it reads to me, I thought what you pay for it and what he charged you. It reminds me of a local down in Cavan my Dad went into about 3 years ago. He would probably only stop in there 3 times a year.

    He called in before Christmas and the publican put up a large whiskey to him but my Dad said, ah now, sure I don't drink here that often. The publican replied it's OK, he bought it all from Tesco for the Christmas drinks. He was getting it for about a tenner cheaper per bottle than his suppliers were providing it.

    What struck me though was that he said that he wasn't allowed buy it from Tesco, only from a selected few suppliers. Never thought about it myself when I worked in a bar but do the VFI or some legal case also restrict who publicans can buy from? Yet another anti competition BS stunt if its the case.


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    #288
    Beano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭Beano


    I cant see how any bar is paying €200 for a keg of heineken. I can buy a single keg here http://www.partykegs.ie/beers.html for €225. surely they can manage a better discount than 11% off the retail price of keg?


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    #289
    Menas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,318 ✭✭✭✭Menas


    CramCycle wrote: »
    Sorry, that's not the way it reads to me, I thought what you pay for it and what he charged you. It reminds me of a local down in Cavan my Dad went into about 3 years ago. He would probably only stop in there 3 times a year.

    He called in before Christmas and the publican put up a large whiskey to him but my Dad said, ah now, sure I don't drink here that often. The publican replied it's OK, he bought it all from Tesco for the Christmas drinks. He was getting it for about a tenner cheaper per bottle than his suppliers were providing it.

    What struck me though was that he said that he wasn't allowed buy it from Tesco, only from a selected few suppliers. Never thought about it myself when I worked in a bar but do the VFI or some legal case also restrict who publicans can buy from? Yet another anti competition BS stunt if its the case.

    It is nuts all right and shows how dysfunctional the industry is. And this all goes to show that imposing minimum pricing in the industry just adds more lunacy to an already lunatic situation.


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    #290
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,190 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Dave147 wrote: »
    So if we pay ~ €200 for a keg of Heineken, and manage to get 88 pints out of the keg, which we won't. So the pint is costing us €2.27 to buy, and you expect us to sell it on for €2.50? Are you ****ing mad? We charge €4.20 and cannot possibly sell it any cheaper.


    You suggest that a pub pays 200 euro ex VAT for a 50 L keg of Heineken?

    Can you confirm, please.

    Sees high to me. That's 2.27 euro ex VAT per pint


    NB: I suspect you are including VAT, which is the wrong way to do it. VAT is added after the pub GP is added.


    This link provides a breakdown of the price of a 3.60stg pint of 4% bitter in England:

    http://ale.gd/blog/2014/05/who-gets-how-much-of-your-beer/

    It is delivered to pub for 1.04stg per pint, or at 78p exchange rate, that means 1.33 euro.

    So a fairly standards 4% bitter is 1.33 euro to a pub in Cambridge, while a pub in Irl pays 2.27 for Heineken, as per your data.

    If that's true, then brewers are making massive profits in Ireland.


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    #291
    The_Captain
    Registered Users Posts: 1,376 ✭✭✭The_Captain


    Beano wrote: »
    that is not what generic means.

    Are you seriously going to argue the semantics of this with me?


    Generic drug: similar, cheaper alternative to a branded product


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    #292
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,920 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Yeah, that's how JDW came to be publicly traded in London.

    I mean in terms of seeding the Irish operation using existing UK capital. Im fully aware the UK business started from nothing.


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    #293
    Dog of Tears
    Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭Dog of Tears


    The Vintners seem to be running scared of Weatherspoons and have obviously lobbied a couple of TD's to push for their curtailment under the laughable guise of 'public health concerns'.

    Personally I'm disgusted that the Govt are not encouraging new players into the market to offer hard-pressed consumers more choice.

    I've spent a lot of time working in Belfast and the presence of Weatherspoons does not necessarily mean the demise of other establishments.
    Filthy McNasty's is about 30yards from Weatherspoons and sell drink at probably twice the price and is still very popular most evenings - it's a different experience.
    IMO, while Weatherspoons is a grand place to grab a cheap bite and pint, it's not the kind of pub I would be meeting up with mates to catch up and obviously it's not the place to go and watch a match or something.


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    #294
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,190 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    keeponhurling wrote: »
    There's actuaslly huge potential for expansion for Wehterspoons in Ireland.

    They're focussing on Dublin and Cork, but they would do well in the towns as well, the likes of Ennis, Navan, Castlebar etc.


    They are advertising for sites/locations in towns above 20,000 pop.


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    #295
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,920 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Trigger Happy wrote: »
    Absolutely.
    Isnt it great to see a chain of bars that sells a great range of beers at great prices in a nice setting with no TVs or music etc?
    And isnt it great that they may just force the incumbent vintners to look at their own business model and maybe realise that they need to up their game?
    Its feckin fantastic!

    I agree, and the food wouldnt kill you either.

    If they would just turn the glaring lights down a bit and ban kids after 7pm.


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    #296
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,190 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Padraig Mor wrote: »
    Yet Wetherspoon's in Dublin were buying their Heineken etc from Heineken Ireland (not the UK) - so with a grand total of one pub (i.e. feck all buying power), were still able to massively undercut other publicans!

    Other Dublin pubs asked Heineken Irl were they giving JD WS a special price.

    Heineken Irl said no, they weren't.


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    #297
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    The_Captain wrote: »
    Are you seriously going to argue the semantics of this with me?


    Generic drug: similar, cheaper alternative to a branded product

    I will! All of the beers Wetherspoons sells are also branded products therefore not generic by your own definition

    Just accept you were wrong in how you described wetherspoons offering's and get over it


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    #298
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,190 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    2 pubs.

    And really its 2 + 1000. Heineken Ireland and Heineken UK are not so unrelated that the lads in Amsterdam wouldnt have a cold sweat at the prospect of a Stg£60 million drop in revenue for the brand as a whole.

    JDW are only undercutting the Irish pubs so massively by taking losses. They have to be. Its a model well used by the likes of Ryanair. The UK businesses supplements the Irish operation for a few years until it has perhaps 20 or 30 premises in strategic locations, where it can start to edge up the prices to profitable levels, yet still less than those of sole trading local pub, and so they retain the custom and market share.

    In 5 years time you'll be in a JDW paying €4.00 for a pint of lager while up the street the locals will be back to €5.00 to try and keep a slice of the action and with their regulars they will do.

    As the saying goes, to make a small fortune, start off with a big one.

    JD WS are not making losses.

    They are able to charge lower prices because of:
    • scale in overheads (insurance, etc)
    • cheap debt financing
    • buying power and discounts in food and non-alcoholic drinks, e.g. cola/water/tea/coffee, etc
    • product mix - e.g. lower margins on beer combined with higher margins on food

    large pubs, means lower overhead cost per sq ft
    large volumes
    sales mix during the day, e.g snacks - lunch - dinners, not just depending on evening trade


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    #299
    Skrynesaver
    Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭Skrynesaver


    Cienciano wrote: »
    The vintners were against McDowells cafe bar idea. Completely shot down. They were also against the smoking ban and were against any drop in the drink driving limit :rolleyes:
    It's no wonder people don't like them.

    You know it's funny, a few times over the years a thread on AH would pop up about what you want in a pub. some of the most common things are no tv, better selection of beer and lower prices. It's almost like the most successful chain of pubs in the UK are actually giving the people what they want instead of what the LVA do and tell us what we should want.

    Odd that, my local (out in the sticks) has a few in every evening, stout 4.20, lager 4.40 no telly good chat, there's a rolling conversation all evening. They were one of the first to serve Behans when it came out but have been disappointingly slow to follow up with newer independents but otherwise, cracking shop.


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    #300
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,190 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Cuddlesworth wrote: »
    One thing that surprises me about the Witherspoon's in Dun Laoghaire is that its pretty busy during the day and through the night every day of the week. Outside of Friday/Saturday nearly every other pub in the area is close to empty and that's not exactly a new thing since opening. Their business model of low prices high volume is working extremely well. And the free publicity provided by TD's is helping them greatly. Worst thing the other publicans could have done was to try put public pressure out there.

    Personally I would easily head to Witherspoon's for a pint or two and some food to catch up with a friend. I would not consider any other location at the moment. Its a no brainer for me.

    And this formula is exactly why they will do well.


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    #301
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,190 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    CramCycle wrote: »

    He called in before Christmas and the publican put up a large whiskey to him but my Dad said, ah now, sure I don't drink here that often. The publican replied it's OK, he bought it all from Tesco for the Christmas drinks. He was getting it for about a tenner cheaper per bottle than his suppliers were providing it.

    What struck me though was that he said that he wasn't allowed buy it from Tesco, only from a selected few suppliers. Never thought about it myself when I worked in a bar but do the VFI or some legal case also restrict who publicans can buy from? Yet another anti competition BS stunt if its the case.

    A pub is perfectly free to buy spirits from any supermarket for re-sale.


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