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Free will is an illusion and the biggest con ever.

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    #62
    Autonomous Cowherd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭Autonomous Cowherd


    NipNip wrote: »
    I agree with the first two levels. Not so sure about the third level!

    :D


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    #63
    Spunge
    Registered Users Posts: 2,779 ✭✭✭Spunge


    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    Nice response to a thought provoking topic!

    Well yokes can provide some provoking thoughts :pac:


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    #64
    Snowpavlova
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 30 ✭Snowpavlova


    NipNip wrote: »
    I recall having a similar discussion with my best friend many moons ago. She went on to study philosophy. I believe she now works with balloons in Australia somewhere. Believe me, she would find this introduction to her hilarious.
    I also don't believe we have free will.
    It's like expecting a molecule of water to know where it's going to end up when it is exposed to heat at a certain degree in a set container.
    Which begs the question, why do the lotto balls not always end up in the same place and get picked out in the same sequence everytime, when they are released into the drum in the same time/ space sequence every time?
    I think my physics teacher finally concluded that I was in fact thick, when I couldn't understand her response to that one lol.

    The lotto balls don't end up in the same position every time because the conditions are different every time. The air molecules inside the drum are bouncing around differently, the balls are slightly different atomically etc etc.


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    #65
    NipNip
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    Snowpavlova wrote: »
    The lotto balls don't end up in the same position every time because the conditions are different every time. The air molecules inside the drum are bouncing around differently, the balls are slightly different atomically etc etc.
    So if I knew enough about the air conditions etc at the time, and had listened intently at physics class, I could predict what balls would come out?
    Like life, just 42 balls and already too many variables :(


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    #66
    NipNip
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    NipNip wrote: »
    So if I knew enough about the air conditions etc at the time, and had listened intently at physics class, I could predict what balls would come out?
    Like life, just 42 balls and already too many variables :(

    My argument at the time was that the speed of the balls being released into the drum should be enough to make the variances in conditions negligible. This is the point she gave up on me haha! Same teacher argued that physics was useful in playing golf. What a load of balls! ;)


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    #67
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Geez lads. bit early for shrooms innit?


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    #68
    Reg'stoy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭Reg'stoy


    Snowpavlova wrote: »
    The actual thought processes you are having right now we're always going to happen just this way.
    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    Nice response to a thought provoking topic!

    He had no choice but to post his comment according to you jack, therefore you can't rebuke him for it.

    If as ye both claim, all this is simply us following some script, then there is no point to the thread.

    Neuroscience shows us that the brain and mind are one in the same and the majority of 'decisions' made are done by the unconscious portion of our brains. The majority of the time the unconscious is acting upon experiences learned.
    To say we are simply devoid of any randomness in our daily lives goes against the chaos theory and as for the non existence of 'time' entropy for me shows the passage of time. A cup falls and breaks, the universe is moving forward to a state of ultimate disorder.

    I will chose to go out based on a number of random factors, weather, money even my choice of clothing is based on random events. The keys I hit to type this sentence is based on me trying to articulate my ideas, the level of my education or lack of limits my vocabulary and so changes the keys I've used.

    Granted the number of decisions choices etc that we make and assume are done consciously are few but to say that the unconscious is somehow preordained is over simplifying our world and the experiences both learned and genetically inherited.


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    #69
    take everything
    Registered Users Posts: 9,804 ✭✭✭take everything


    NipNip wrote: »
    My argument at the time was that the speed of the balls being released into the drum should be enough to make the variances in conditions negligible. This is the point she gave up on me haha! Same teacher argued that physics was useful in playing golf. What a load of balls! ;)

    You might think that and before chaos theory this is how people thought about physics generally.
    Have a look at chaos theory (where small variations in initial conditions lead to huge variability in outcomes in complex systems like the lotto balls).
    It's very interesting and a small bit depressing how it's yet another (kinda prosaic) limitation on our knowing everything.
    Prosaic in the sense it's deterministic but even then our knowledge is limited by something as mundane as measurement accuracy being compounded through the complexity of a system.
    /goes off pondering the unknowability and/or incalculability of it all


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    #70
    Snowpavlova
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 30 ✭Snowpavlova


    Reg'stoy wrote: »
    He had no choice but to post his comment according to you jack, therefore you can't rebuke him for it.

    If as ye both claim, all this is simply us following some script, then there is no point to the thread.

    Neuroscience shows us that the brain and mind are one in the same and the majority of 'decisions' made are done by the unconscious portion of our brains. The majority of the time the unconscious is acting upon experiences learned.
    To say we are simply devoid of any randomness in our daily lives goes against the chaos theory and as for the non existence of 'time' entropy for me shows the passage of time. A cup falls and breaks, the universe is moving forward to a state of ultimate disorder.

    I will chose to go out based on a number of random factors, weather, money even my choice of clothing is based on random events. The keys I hit to type this sentence is based on me trying to articulate my ideas, the level of my education or lack of limits my vocabulary and so changes the keys I've used.

    Granted the number of decisions choices etc that we make and assume are done consciously are few but to say that the unconscious is somehow preordained is over simplifying our world and the experiences both learned and genetically inherited.

    Nothing is really random, for example the only reason you don't know which side of dice will land upwards facing is that you don't understand the conditions and interactions well enough.


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    #71
    take everything
    Registered Users Posts: 9,804 ✭✭✭take everything


    Reg'stoy wrote: »
    He had no choice but to post his comment according to you jack, therefore you can't rebuke him for it.

    If as ye both claim, all this is simply us following some script, then there is no point to the thread.

    Neuroscience shows us that the brain and mind are one in the same and the majority of 'decisions' made are done by the unconscious portion of our brains. The majority of the time the unconscious is acting upon experiences learned.
    To say we are simply devoid of any randomness in our daily lives goes against the chaos theory and as for the non existence of 'time' entropy for me shows the passage of time. A cup falls and breaks, the universe is moving forward to a state of ultimate disorder.

    I will chose to go out based on a number of random factors, weather, money even my choice of clothing is based on random events. The keys I hit to type this sentence is based on me trying to articulate my ideas, the level of my education or lack of limits my vocabulary and so changes the keys I've used.

    Granted the number of decisions choices etc that we make and assume are done consciously are few but to say that the unconscious is somehow preordained is over simplifying our world and the experiences both learned and genetically inherited.

    You're conflating many things there.
    Causality, chaos theory etc.
    All that matters is causality (cause leading to effect).
    Chaos theory does not violate cause and effect.
    Randomness doesn't either AFAIK but either way it certainly wouldn't confer agency.
    There is no magic involved in how we do stuff.
    Yes this is exactly how this thread would have gone tbh.
    Doesn't mean we should be nihilistic about things.
    This is where the psychological implications of knowing this are important


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    #72
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    Snowpavlova wrote: »
    Nothing is really random, for example the only reason you don't know which side of dice will land upwards facing is that you don't understand the conduits and interactions well enough.

    Yes... or, just because something is incredibly complex doesn't mean there's not a defined outcome.


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    #73
    Hotfail.com
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,928 ✭✭✭Hotfail.com


    Snowpavlova wrote: »
    It's something that was always going to happen, make of that what you will.

    But only one thing can ever happen? But I could have chosen to do something else if I wanted to.

    Is the argument here really that because you can only choose to do one thing at a specific time that it's impossible you could ever have chosen to do otherwise?


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    #74
    ressem
    Registered Users Posts: 2,426 ✭✭✭ressem


    Newton had his view of a clockwork universe but it's not really true.

    Supercomputers are needed just to make better estimates at modelling a lump of decaying radioactive metal.

    A stray cosmic particle emitted thousands of years ago from another part of the galaxy and striking a vulnerable piece of electronics can incentivise me to travel a hundred KM tomorrow.

    The path of that ray is influenced by so many factors, turbulences and unsolvable mathematical equations that it really is unknowable.

    And that's trivial to thousands of years of accumulated interactions of 800 billion neurons with 7000 interconnections multiplied by billions of people and how any of their behaviour can be altered by a drop of rain or a noticed shadow and any of the collisions that have happened in the past.

    If you are exposed, even by one of these happenstances, to something that your brain retains, like a lesson in self control then it can have cause you to choose a different option than you would previously.
    Others can observe your likelihood to choose this option and make a guesstimate about whether you will choose this option in future and change their own actions due to more or less trust in you.


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    #75
    Sky King
    Registered Users Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Sky King


    Anyone else read the title as 'free Wifi?


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    #76
    Snowpavlova
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 30 ✭Snowpavlova


    Hotfail.com wrote: »
    But only one thing can ever happen? But I could have chosen to do something else if I wanted to.

    Is the argument here really that because you can only choose to do one thing at a specific time that it's impossible you could ever have chosen to do otherwise?

    You vouldn't really have chosen to do anything different, you were always going to make the choices that you make.


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    #77
    NipNip
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    She may well have referred to chaos theory in response. I block out a lot of the brain fry involved in physics lol. Way too random yet apparently predictable!!


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    #78
    Snowpavlova
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 30 ✭Snowpavlova


    ressem wrote: »
    Newton had his view of a clockwork universe but it's not really true.

    Supercomputers are needed just to make better estimates at modelling a lump of decaying radioactive metal.

    A stray cosmic particle emitted thousands of years ago from another part of the galaxy and striking a vulnerable piece of electronics can incentivise me to travel a hundred KM tomorrow.

    The path of that ray is influenced by so many factors, turbulences and unsolvable mathematical equations that it really is unknowable.

    And that's trivial to thousands of years of accumulated interactions of 800 billion neurons with 7000 interconnections multiplied by billions of people and how any of their behaviour can be altered by a drop of rain or a noticed shadow and any of the collisions that have happened in the past.

    If you are exposed, even by one of these happenstances, to something that your brain retains, like a lesson in self control then it can have cause you to choose a different option than you would previously.
    Others can observe your likelihood to choose this option and make a guesstimate about whether you will choose this option in future and change their own actions due to more or less trust in you.

    You're missing the point, no one is saying that we can ever know what will happen as it's far too complex, but what will happen is predetermined nevertheless.


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    #79
    NipNip
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    Much akin to philosophy in many ways!


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    #80
    takamichinoku
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭takamichinoku


    The first time I took psychedelics, my biggest concern was that I was going to suddenly find talk like this amazing.

    The second time I took psychedelics, my biggest concern was that the guy who spent the whole first time ****eing on about this kind of thing would launch into it again.


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    #81
    Hotfail.com
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,928 ✭✭✭Hotfail.com


    Snowpavlova wrote: »
    You're missing the point, no one is saying that we can ever know what will happen as it's far too complex, but what will happen is predetermined nevertheless.

    Is there any proof of this? Like I said, only one thing can ever happen at a specific point in time.. So you can easily say it's all predetermined because of that, but is there actually any proof that I couldn't have made a different decision?


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    #82
    NipNip
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    Actually, I learned enough about physics to know that a reference to chaos theory really is an arrogant human way of referring to the myriad of inter-related perfectly law abiding interactions. Nothing chaotic about it. Apart from to our tiny brains in assuming to somehow begin to understand it lol.


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    #83
    debit2credit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 192 ✭✭debit2credit


    Snowpavlova wrote: »
    That decision was a product of interact of molecules in your head, unless you have the ability to periodically change the laws of physics you were always going to make that decision.

    Please explain why the decision was a product of (I.e. caused) by the interaction of the molecules? Please note I don't deny that 'molecules' interact in the brain when decisions are made.


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    #84
    NipNip
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    We track the behaviour of one atom and think we've made some sort of quantum leap. All it takes is a breeze to **** up our analysis.


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    #85
    NipNip
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    debit2credit wrote: »
    Please explain why the decision was a product of (I.e. caused) by the interaction of the molecules? Please note I don't deny that 'molecules' interact in the brain when decisions are made.

    I could tell you, but a brain cell would die per milli second


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    #86
    debit2credit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 192 ✭✭debit2credit


    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    Spot on!

    I think it gives me peace of mind knowing whatever happens was always gonna happen, just sit back and enjoy the ride!!

    Why? Do you believe that you have no moral responsibility because you have no free will?


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    #87
    NipNip
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    Hotfail.com wrote: »
    Is there any proof of this? Like I said, only one thing can ever happen at a specific point in time.. So you can easily say it's all predetermined because of that, but is there actually any proof that I couldn't have made a different decision?

    You need to break this down in your brain to very simple terms. I don't have my laptop so am one finger typing, otherwise I would try to explain


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    #88
    debit2credit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 192 ✭✭debit2credit


    NipNip wrote: »
    I could tell you, but a brain cell would die per milli second

    Are you predetermined to give sarky replies? :pac:


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    #89
    Snowpavlova
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 30 ✭Snowpavlova


    debit2credit wrote: »
    Please explain why the decision was a product of (I.e. caused) by the interaction of the molecules? Please note I don't deny that 'molecules' interact in the brain when decisions are made.

    What do you think causes your thought processes to take place? Does it just occur independent of any rational cause and effect?

    When you are thinking about a decision you have to make the atoms in your brain are interacting in the only way they can and come to a conclusion. Evolution has allowed your brain to be built in such a complex way that it feels like you have free will.


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    #90
    NipNip
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    debit2credit wrote: »
    Are you predetermined to give sarky replies? :pac:

    It would appear to be so!


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    #91
    debit2credit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 192 ✭✭debit2credit


    Snowpavlova wrote: »
    What do you think causes your thought processes to take place? Does it just occur independent of an rational cause and effect?

    I'm open minded. I'm no brain scientist or philosopher but I would like to know why you believe what you do. Does correlation in brain scans prove causation?


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