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Free will is an illusion and the biggest con ever.

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    #32
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,409 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    If I murder someone am I responsible then?or if I save someone from drowning it's nothing to be proud of?


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    #33
    Ted_YNWA
    Registered Users Posts: 71,799 ✭✭✭✭Ted_YNWA


    If I murdered someone, I can claim that my DNA made me do it.

    Would be laughed out of every courthouse in the land with that defence.

    Judge would send me on numerous mental health studies.


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    #34
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    bboybaboy19 wrote: »
    And at the bottom of a career ladder

    "If I was meant to get my dream job then it'd just happen. I'm predisposed to work this hard and my bosses are predisposed to give me the promotion, there's literally nothing I can do"

    Certainly not the case here sir!


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    #35
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    Ted_YNWA wrote: »
    If I murdered someone, I can claim that my DNA made me do it.

    Would be laughed out of every courthouse in the land with that defence.

    Judge would send me on numerous mental health studies.

    Not really, ever heard of pleading insanity or schizo?


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    #36
    bboybaboy19
    Closed Accounts Posts: 260 ✭✭bboybaboy19


    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    Not really, ever heard of pleading insanity or schizo?

    Not even remotely the same thing.


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    #37
    Ted_YNWA
    Registered Users Posts: 71,799 ✭✭✭✭Ted_YNWA


    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    Not really, ever heard of pleading insanity or schizo?

    From your OP.
    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    How can the soul (holy spirit) that animates the human body be responsible for the bodies programmed actions?

    So my soul being within my human form will still be punished for what I was preprogrammed to do?


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    #38
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    Ted_YNWA wrote: »
    From your OP.



    So my soul being within my human form will still be punished for what I was preprogrammed to do?

    Exactly.

    Its a scary thought at first.


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    #39
    Spunge
    Registered Users Posts: 2,779 ✭✭✭Spunge


    Did someone drop a few yokes last night ?


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    #40
    Ted_YNWA
    Registered Users Posts: 71,799 ✭✭✭✭Ted_YNWA


    Spunge wrote: »
    Did someone drop a few yokes last night ?

    Or was watching Minority Report.


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    #41
    Snowpavlova
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 30 ✭Snowpavlova


    kneemos wrote: »
    If I murder someone am I responsible then?or if I save someone from drowning it's nothing to be proud of?

    It's something that was always going to happen, make of that what you will.


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    #42
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Snowpavlova wrote: »
    Of course it's predestined, the universe is a big mix of interacting particles. There was only ever one way they were going to interact. The unives is ultimately a much more complicated row of Dominos.

    Quantum uncertainty very much disagrees


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    #43
    Ted_YNWA
    Registered Users Posts: 71,799 ✭✭✭✭Ted_YNWA


    Snowpavlova wrote: »
    It's something that was always going to happen, make of that what you will.

    Who controls this giant script that we are all part of & can I get a copy?


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    #44
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    Spunge wrote: »
    Did someone drop a few yokes last night ?

    Nice response to a thought provoking topic!


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    #45
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    xupe 6048 essy wrote: »
    Time is just an illusion, There is no 'past' or 'present', there is no 'now'

    There just IS

    When was the light from distant suns emitted so?


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    #46
    Snowpavlova
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 30 ✭Snowpavlova


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Quantum uncertainty very much disagrees

    I don't think it does at all, We just don't understand the cause and effects well enough.


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    #47
    bboybaboy19
    Closed Accounts Posts: 260 ✭✭bboybaboy19


    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    Nice response to a thought provoking topic!

    It's a stoner thought and has no real merit tbh


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    #48
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    bboybaboy19 wrote: »
    It's a stoner thought and has no real merit tbh

    Well google it and see if it is just a stoner thought.

    Its one of the oldest debates ever.


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    #49
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Snowpavlova wrote: »
    I don't think it does at all, We just don't understand the cause and effects well enough.

    Make sure to tell Mr Hawking et el


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    #50
    take everything
    Registered Users Posts: 9,800 ✭✭✭take everything


    Ted_YNWA wrote: »
    Who controls this giant script that we are all part of & can I get a copy?

    At the moment, nobody knows.
    No.

    What is it about the unknown/unknowable and us humans.
    It scares the **** out of us.


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    #51
    bnt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,959 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    I think "free will" is a bit like "spirits" in that it gets invoked to "explain" things for which we don't currently have an explanation. But just because something is currently unexplained, it doesn't mean that it's unexplainable in principle. Religions seem to me to be driven by a need for explanations of the unexplained at all costs, when it would be better to say "we don't know yet" and leave it at that.

    We have all these interactions between ourselves and our environments (human or otherwise), going on all the time, building up knowledge and experience over the decades. So my conclusion is that we don't act randomly, or with "free will" that defies nature, just that our thought processes are extremely complex. All those inputs and influences (past and present) go in to every thought you have, thought you don't know it.

    From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a bitch’.

    — Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Astronaut



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    #52
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    take everything wrote: »
    At the moment, nobody knows.
    No.

    What is it about the unknown/unknowable and us humans.
    It scares the **** out of us.

    Because we like to think we are in control of our actions and we control our destiny.

    When in fact its not true at all, humans are afraid to accept this.

    Nature has lived in perfect harmony for billions of years.

    Only since humans has it really lost its way.


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    #53
    Autonomous Cowherd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭Autonomous Cowherd


    I was discussing this topic of free will versus destiny with someone recently. As OP says it is possibly one of the earliest questions and relates very closely to the question ''Who Am I?''. Am I a self-determining material package on a possibly limited journey through time and space, or am I something far more unknowable? People object to religion being brought into the debate because people's understanding of religion is as a political institution rather than as a system of philosophy that seeks to comprehend some of the underlying patterns in an apparently vast cosmos, and our relation to these. Do we for example create our realities as Advaita (nothing exists except for Consciousness) suggests and as Quantum physics (by observation we affect matter/produce actions) suggests?
    At the moment, and it is simple a random thought in this moment by me (whoever I am), I think both exist. Both Freewill and Destiny. They flicker in and out. An oscillating reality. Will may exist on more mundane levels, shall I eat cake or not, shall I study or not. But in a bigger grander picture I see an absence of Will, beyond the One Will. the greater reality behind all things that both philosophy and quantum sciences are seeking to describe.

    For the most part I sit back and enjoy the ride. Even the next heart beat is beyond my control. If I breathe out will I breathe back in again. I cannot know or control that. How can I say I exercise will when even such fundamentals are beyond me...hence destiny. But I can choose Consciousness as I breathe....hence freewill.


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    #54
    auldgranny
    Registered Users Posts: 909 ✭✭✭auldgranny


    This is the kinda stuff I hear lads spouting in the pub on a quiet Wednesday. Life is life. Stop analysing it and just enjoy living it.


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    #55
    Snowpavlova
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 30 ✭Snowpavlova


    Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »
    I was discussing this topic of free will versus destiny with someone recently. As OP says it is possibly one of the earliest questions and relates very closely to the question ''Who Am I?''. Am I a self-determining material package on a possibly limited journey through time and space, or am I something far more unknowable? People object to religion being brought into the debate because people's understanding of religion is as a political institution rather than as a system of philosophy that seeks to comprehend some of the underlying patterns in an apparently vast cosmos, and our relation to these. Do we for example create our realities as Advaita (nothing exists except for Consciousness) suggests and as Quantum physics (by observation we affect matter/produce actions) suggests?
    At the moment, and it is simple a random thought in this moment by me (whoever I am), I think both exist. Both Freewill and Destiny. They flicker in and out. An oscillating reality. Will may exist on more mundane levels, shall I eat cake or not, shall I study or not. But in a bigger grander picture I see an absence of Will, beyond the One Will. the greater reality behind all things that both philosophy and quantum sciences are seeking to describe.

    For the most part I sit back and enjoy the ride. Even the next heart beat is beyond my control. If I breathe out will I breathe back in again. I cannot know or control that. How can I say I exercise will when even such fundamentals are beyond me...hence destiny. But I can choose Consciousness as I breathe....hence freewill.

    The actual thought processes you are having right now we're always going to happen just this way.


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    #56
    Autonomous Cowherd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭Autonomous Cowherd


    Snowpavlova wrote: »
    The actual thought processes you are having right now we're always going to happen just this way.

    Well I'' think'' (ooops apologies auldgranny) that thought processes are affected by whether we surrender to flow or not. Actually if we surrender wholly to flow thought processes are said to stop. Obviously mine have not :D Like I said, both exist, will and not will.


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    #57
    take everything
    Registered Users Posts: 9,800 ✭✭✭take everything


    bnt wrote: »
    I think "free will" is a bit like "spirits" in that it gets invoked to "explain" things for which we don't currently have an explanation. But just because something is currently unexplained, it doesn't mean that it's unexplainable in principle. Religions seem to me to be driven by a need for explanations of the unexplained at all costs, when it would be better to say "we don't know yet" and leave it at that.

    We have all these interactions between ourselves and our environments (human or otherwise), going on all the time, building up knowledge and experience over the decades. So my conclusion is that we don't act randomly, or with "free will" that defies nature, just that our thought processes are extremely complex. All those inputs and influences (past and present) go in to every thought you have, thought you don't know it.

    The last bit of your post (that we don't know it) is an interesting point of discussion in itself.
    Not knowing ourselves completely (as in not knowing every single thing that makes us do or not do something) is, some may argue, a good thing.
    Imagine knowing yourself completely (in the literal sense). First, I'm not actually sure this is possible (a computer scientist might be able to shed light on this- can a machine know its own complexity or does it need a more resourceful machine to know it) but also imagine a world like that. Christ. Maybe not knowing some stuff is what makes life liveable.

    Edit: actually I'm off to the philosophy forum with this stuff. :p


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    #58
    NipNip
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    I recall having a similar discussion with my best friend many moons ago. She went on to study philosophy. I believe she now works with balloons in Australia somewhere. Believe me, she would find this introduction to her hilarious.
    I also don't believe we have free will.
    It's like expecting a molecule of water to know where it's going to end up when it is exposed to heat at a certain degree in a set container.
    Which begs the question, why do the lotto balls not always end up in the same place and get picked out in the same sequence everytime, when they are released into the drum in the same time/ space sequence every time?
    I think my physics teacher finally concluded that I was in fact thick, when I couldn't understand her response to that one lol.


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    #59
    NipNip
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    In conclusion, there are too many variables for us to know or predict how we are going to react in any given scenario. So we have to play along and mull it over. Otherwise we'd just sit there waiting for life to happen. And probably die from starvation trying to decide whether to eat that piece of cake or not.


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    #60
    Autonomous Cowherd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭Autonomous Cowherd


    NipNip wrote: »
    In conclusion, there are too many variables for us to know or predict how we are going to react in any given scenario. So we have to play along and mull it over. Otherwise we'd just sit there waiting for life to happen. And probably die from starvation trying to decide whether to eat that piece of cake or not.

    Well actually that puts some context on things. What if we are multi level beings? We have an instinctive part that is going to get us food, (reproductive)sex, sleep, survival, regardless of whether we ''choose'' it or not because this is our native instinct (animal level). Then we have a mental level that will have and dismiss thoughts (like about freewill or destiny) according again to our nature, relative to whether we are analytical, dreamers, artists, and so on. We choose pleasures here at this level, good sex, good fod, love, art and so on. And then on another level we are infinite energy and consciousness and at this level free will is not an issue because it is mundane and irrelevant. There is no differentiation at that level between the individual and All.


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    #61
    NipNip
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »
    Well actually that puts some context on things. What if we are multi level beings? We have an instinctive part that is going to get us food, (reproductive)sex, sleep, survival, regardless of whether we ''choose'' it or not because this is our native instinct (animal level). Then we have a mental level that will have and dismiss thoughts (like about freewill or destiny) according again to our nature, relative to whether we are analytical, dreamers, artists, and so on. We choose pleasures here at this level, good sex, good fod, love, art and so on. And then on another level we are infinite energy and consciousness and at this level free will is not an issue because it is mundane and irrelevant. There is no differentiation at that level between the individual and All.

    I agree with the first two levels. Not so sure about the third level!


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