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Free will is an illusion and the biggest con ever.

24

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    At the moment, nobody knows.
    No.

    What is it about the unknown/unknowable and us humans.
    It scares the **** out of us.

    Because we like to think we are in control of our actions and we control our destiny.

    When in fact its not true at all, humans are afraid to accept this.

    Nature has lived in perfect harmony for billions of years.

    Only since humans has it really lost its way.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭Autonomous Cowherd


    I was discussing this topic of free will versus destiny with someone recently. As OP says it is possibly one of the earliest questions and relates very closely to the question ''Who Am I?''. Am I a self-determining material package on a possibly limited journey through time and space, or am I something far more unknowable? People object to religion being brought into the debate because people's understanding of religion is as a political institution rather than as a system of philosophy that seeks to comprehend some of the underlying patterns in an apparently vast cosmos, and our relation to these. Do we for example create our realities as Advaita (nothing exists except for Consciousness) suggests and as Quantum physics (by observation we affect matter/produce actions) suggests?
    At the moment, and it is simple a random thought in this moment by me (whoever I am), I think both exist. Both Freewill and Destiny. They flicker in and out. An oscillating reality. Will may exist on more mundane levels, shall I eat cake or not, shall I study or not. But in a bigger grander picture I see an absence of Will, beyond the One Will. the greater reality behind all things that both philosophy and quantum sciences are seeking to describe.

    For the most part I sit back and enjoy the ride. Even the next heart beat is beyond my control. If I breathe out will I breathe back in again. I cannot know or control that. How can I say I exercise will when even such fundamentals are beyond me...hence destiny. But I can choose Consciousness as I breathe....hence freewill.


  • Registered Users Posts: 909 ✭✭✭auldgranny


    This is the kinda stuff I hear lads spouting in the pub on a quiet Wednesday. Life is life. Stop analysing it and just enjoy living it.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 30 Snowpavlova


    I was discussing this topic of free will versus destiny with someone recently. As OP says it is possibly one of the earliest questions and relates very closely to the question ''Who Am I?''. Am I a self-determining material package on a possibly limited journey through time and space, or am I something far more unknowable? People object to religion being brought into the debate because people's understanding of religion is as a political institution rather than as a system of philosophy that seeks to comprehend some of the underlying patterns in an apparently vast cosmos, and our relation to these. Do we for example create our realities as Advaita (nothing exists except for Consciousness) suggests and as Quantum physics (by observation we affect matter/produce actions) suggests?
    At the moment, and it is simple a random thought in this moment by me (whoever I am), I think both exist. Both Freewill and Destiny. They flicker in and out. An oscillating reality. Will may exist on more mundane levels, shall I eat cake or not, shall I study or not. But in a bigger grander picture I see an absence of Will, beyond the One Will. the greater reality behind all things that both philosophy and quantum sciences are seeking to describe.

    For the most part I sit back and enjoy the ride. Even the next heart beat is beyond my control. If I breathe out will I breathe back in again. I cannot know or control that. How can I say I exercise will when even such fundamentals are beyond me...hence destiny. But I can choose Consciousness as I breathe....hence freewill.

    The actual thought processes you are having right now we're always going to happen just this way.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭Autonomous Cowherd


    The actual thought processes you are having right now we're always going to happen just this way.

    Well I'' think'' (ooops apologies auldgranny) that thought processes are affected by whether we surrender to flow or not. Actually if we surrender wholly to flow thought processes are said to stop. Obviously mine have not :D Like I said, both exist, will and not will.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,808 ✭✭✭take everything


    bnt wrote: »
    I think "free will" is a bit like "spirits" in that it gets invoked to "explain" things for which we don't currently have an explanation. But just because something is currently unexplained, it doesn't mean that it's unexplainable in principle. Religions seem to me to be driven by a need for explanations of the unexplained at all costs, when it would be better to say "we don't know yet" and leave it at that.

    We have all these interactions between ourselves and our environments (human or otherwise), going on all the time, building up knowledge and experience over the decades. So my conclusion is that we don't act randomly, or with "free will" that defies nature, just that our thought processes are extremely complex. All those inputs and influences (past and present) go in to every thought you have, thought you don't know it.

    The last bit of your post (that we don't know it) is an interesting point of discussion in itself.
    Not knowing ourselves completely (as in not knowing every single thing that makes us do or not do something) is, some may argue, a good thing.
    Imagine knowing yourself completely (in the literal sense). First, I'm not actually sure this is possible (a computer scientist might be able to shed light on this- can a machine know its own complexity or does it need a more resourceful machine to know it) but also imagine a world like that. Christ. Maybe not knowing some stuff is what makes life liveable.

    Edit: actually I'm off to the philosophy forum with this stuff. :p


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    I recall having a similar discussion with my best friend many moons ago. She went on to study philosophy. I believe she now works with balloons in Australia somewhere. Believe me, she would find this introduction to her hilarious.
    I also don't believe we have free will.
    It's like expecting a molecule of water to know where it's going to end up when it is exposed to heat at a certain degree in a set container.
    Which begs the question, why do the lotto balls not always end up in the same place and get picked out in the same sequence everytime, when they are released into the drum in the same time/ space sequence every time?
    I think my physics teacher finally concluded that I was in fact thick, when I couldn't understand her response to that one lol.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    In conclusion, there are too many variables for us to know or predict how we are going to react in any given scenario. So we have to play along and mull it over. Otherwise we'd just sit there waiting for life to happen. And probably die from starvation trying to decide whether to eat that piece of cake or not.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭Autonomous Cowherd


    NipNip wrote: »
    In conclusion, there are too many variables for us to know or predict how we are going to react in any given scenario. So we have to play along and mull it over. Otherwise we'd just sit there waiting for life to happen. And probably die from starvation trying to decide whether to eat that piece of cake or not.

    Well actually that puts some context on things. What if we are multi level beings? We have an instinctive part that is going to get us food, (reproductive)sex, sleep, survival, regardless of whether we ''choose'' it or not because this is our native instinct (animal level). Then we have a mental level that will have and dismiss thoughts (like about freewill or destiny) according again to our nature, relative to whether we are analytical, dreamers, artists, and so on. We choose pleasures here at this level, good sex, good fod, love, art and so on. And then on another level we are infinite energy and consciousness and at this level free will is not an issue because it is mundane and irrelevant. There is no differentiation at that level between the individual and All.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    Well actually that puts some context on things. What if we are multi level beings? We have an instinctive part that is going to get us food, (reproductive)sex, sleep, survival, regardless of whether we ''choose'' it or not because this is our native instinct (animal level). Then we have a mental level that will have and dismiss thoughts (like about freewill or destiny) according again to our nature, relative to whether we are analytical, dreamers, artists, and so on. We choose pleasures here at this level, good sex, good fod, love, art and so on. And then on another level we are infinite energy and consciousness and at this level free will is not an issue because it is mundane and irrelevant. There is no differentiation at that level between the individual and All.

    I agree with the first two levels. Not so sure about the third level!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭Autonomous Cowherd


    NipNip wrote: »
    I agree with the first two levels. Not so sure about the third level!

    :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,779 ✭✭✭Spunge


    Nice response to a thought provoking topic!

    Well yokes can provide some provoking thoughts :pac:


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 30 Snowpavlova


    NipNip wrote: »
    I recall having a similar discussion with my best friend many moons ago. She went on to study philosophy. I believe she now works with balloons in Australia somewhere. Believe me, she would find this introduction to her hilarious.
    I also don't believe we have free will.
    It's like expecting a molecule of water to know where it's going to end up when it is exposed to heat at a certain degree in a set container.
    Which begs the question, why do the lotto balls not always end up in the same place and get picked out in the same sequence everytime, when they are released into the drum in the same time/ space sequence every time?
    I think my physics teacher finally concluded that I was in fact thick, when I couldn't understand her response to that one lol.

    The lotto balls don't end up in the same position every time because the conditions are different every time. The air molecules inside the drum are bouncing around differently, the balls are slightly different atomically etc etc.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    The lotto balls don't end up in the same position every time because the conditions are different every time. The air molecules inside the drum are bouncing around differently, the balls are slightly different atomically etc etc.
    So if I knew enough about the air conditions etc at the time, and had listened intently at physics class, I could predict what balls would come out?
    Like life, just 42 balls and already too many variables :(


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    NipNip wrote: »
    So if I knew enough about the air conditions etc at the time, and had listened intently at physics class, I could predict what balls would come out?
    Like life, just 42 balls and already too many variables :(

    My argument at the time was that the speed of the balls being released into the drum should be enough to make the variances in conditions negligible. This is the point she gave up on me haha! Same teacher argued that physics was useful in playing golf. What a load of balls! ;)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Geez lads. bit early for shrooms innit?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭Reg'stoy


    The actual thought processes you are having right now we're always going to happen just this way.
    Nice response to a thought provoking topic!

    He had no choice but to post his comment according to you jack, therefore you can't rebuke him for it.

    If as ye both claim, all this is simply us following some script, then there is no point to the thread.

    Neuroscience shows us that the brain and mind are one in the same and the majority of 'decisions' made are done by the unconscious portion of our brains. The majority of the time the unconscious is acting upon experiences learned.
    To say we are simply devoid of any randomness in our daily lives goes against the chaos theory and as for the non existence of 'time' entropy for me shows the passage of time. A cup falls and breaks, the universe is moving forward to a state of ultimate disorder.

    I will chose to go out based on a number of random factors, weather, money even my choice of clothing is based on random events. The keys I hit to type this sentence is based on me trying to articulate my ideas, the level of my education or lack of limits my vocabulary and so changes the keys I've used.

    Granted the number of decisions choices etc that we make and assume are done consciously are few but to say that the unconscious is somehow preordained is over simplifying our world and the experiences both learned and genetically inherited.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,808 ✭✭✭take everything


    NipNip wrote: »
    My argument at the time was that the speed of the balls being released into the drum should be enough to make the variances in conditions negligible. This is the point she gave up on me haha! Same teacher argued that physics was useful in playing golf. What a load of balls! ;)

    You might think that and before chaos theory this is how people thought about physics generally.
    Have a look at chaos theory (where small variations in initial conditions lead to huge variability in outcomes in complex systems like the lotto balls).
    It's very interesting and a small bit depressing how it's yet another (kinda prosaic) limitation on our knowing everything.
    Prosaic in the sense it's deterministic but even then our knowledge is limited by something as mundane as measurement accuracy being compounded through the complexity of a system.
    /goes off pondering the unknowability and/or incalculability of it all


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 30 Snowpavlova


    Reg'stoy wrote: »
    He had no choice but to post his comment according to you jack, therefore you can't rebuke him for it.

    If as ye both claim, all this is simply us following some script, then there is no point to the thread.

    Neuroscience shows us that the brain and mind are one in the same and the majority of 'decisions' made are done by the unconscious portion of our brains. The majority of the time the unconscious is acting upon experiences learned.
    To say we are simply devoid of any randomness in our daily lives goes against the chaos theory and as for the non existence of 'time' entropy for me shows the passage of time. A cup falls and breaks, the universe is moving forward to a state of ultimate disorder.

    I will chose to go out based on a number of random factors, weather, money even my choice of clothing is based on random events. The keys I hit to type this sentence is based on me trying to articulate my ideas, the level of my education or lack of limits my vocabulary and so changes the keys I've used.

    Granted the number of decisions choices etc that we make and assume are done consciously are few but to say that the unconscious is somehow preordained is over simplifying our world and the experiences both learned and genetically inherited.

    Nothing is really random, for example the only reason you don't know which side of dice will land upwards facing is that you don't understand the conditions and interactions well enough.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,808 ✭✭✭take everything


    Reg'stoy wrote: »
    He had no choice but to post his comment according to you jack, therefore you can't rebuke him for it.

    If as ye both claim, all this is simply us following some script, then there is no point to the thread.

    Neuroscience shows us that the brain and mind are one in the same and the majority of 'decisions' made are done by the unconscious portion of our brains. The majority of the time the unconscious is acting upon experiences learned.
    To say we are simply devoid of any randomness in our daily lives goes against the chaos theory and as for the non existence of 'time' entropy for me shows the passage of time. A cup falls and breaks, the universe is moving forward to a state of ultimate disorder.

    I will chose to go out based on a number of random factors, weather, money even my choice of clothing is based on random events. The keys I hit to type this sentence is based on me trying to articulate my ideas, the level of my education or lack of limits my vocabulary and so changes the keys I've used.

    Granted the number of decisions choices etc that we make and assume are done consciously are few but to say that the unconscious is somehow preordained is over simplifying our world and the experiences both learned and genetically inherited.

    You're conflating many things there.
    Causality, chaos theory etc.
    All that matters is causality (cause leading to effect).
    Chaos theory does not violate cause and effect.
    Randomness doesn't either AFAIK but either way it certainly wouldn't confer agency.
    There is no magic involved in how we do stuff.
    Yes this is exactly how this thread would have gone tbh.
    Doesn't mean we should be nihilistic about things.
    This is where the psychological implications of knowing this are important


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    Nothing is really random, for example the only reason you don't know which side of dice will land upwards facing is that you don't understand the conduits and interactions well enough.

    Yes... or, just because something is incredibly complex doesn't mean there's not a defined outcome.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,928 ✭✭✭Hotfail.com


    It's something that was always going to happen, make of that what you will.

    But only one thing can ever happen? But I could have chosen to do something else if I wanted to.

    Is the argument here really that because you can only choose to do one thing at a specific time that it's impossible you could ever have chosen to do otherwise?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,426 ✭✭✭ressem


    Newton had his view of a clockwork universe but it's not really true.

    Supercomputers are needed just to make better estimates at modelling a lump of decaying radioactive metal.

    A stray cosmic particle emitted thousands of years ago from another part of the galaxy and striking a vulnerable piece of electronics can incentivise me to travel a hundred KM tomorrow.

    The path of that ray is influenced by so many factors, turbulences and unsolvable mathematical equations that it really is unknowable.

    And that's trivial to thousands of years of accumulated interactions of 800 billion neurons with 7000 interconnections multiplied by billions of people and how any of their behaviour can be altered by a drop of rain or a noticed shadow and any of the collisions that have happened in the past.

    If you are exposed, even by one of these happenstances, to something that your brain retains, like a lesson in self control then it can have cause you to choose a different option than you would previously.
    Others can observe your likelihood to choose this option and make a guesstimate about whether you will choose this option in future and change their own actions due to more or less trust in you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Sky King


    Anyone else read the title as 'free Wifi?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 30 Snowpavlova


    But only one thing can ever happen? But I could have chosen to do something else if I wanted to.

    Is the argument here really that because you can only choose to do one thing at a specific time that it's impossible you could ever have chosen to do otherwise?

    You vouldn't really have chosen to do anything different, you were always going to make the choices that you make.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    She may well have referred to chaos theory in response. I block out a lot of the brain fry involved in physics lol. Way too random yet apparently predictable!!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 30 Snowpavlova


    ressem wrote: »
    Newton had his view of a clockwork universe but it's not really true.

    Supercomputers are needed just to make better estimates at modelling a lump of decaying radioactive metal.

    A stray cosmic particle emitted thousands of years ago from another part of the galaxy and striking a vulnerable piece of electronics can incentivise me to travel a hundred KM tomorrow.

    The path of that ray is influenced by so many factors, turbulences and unsolvable mathematical equations that it really is unknowable.

    And that's trivial to thousands of years of accumulated interactions of 800 billion neurons with 7000 interconnections multiplied by billions of people and how any of their behaviour can be altered by a drop of rain or a noticed shadow and any of the collisions that have happened in the past.

    If you are exposed, even by one of these happenstances, to something that your brain retains, like a lesson in self control then it can have cause you to choose a different option than you would previously.
    Others can observe your likelihood to choose this option and make a guesstimate about whether you will choose this option in future and change their own actions due to more or less trust in you.

    You're missing the point, no one is saying that we can ever know what will happen as it's far too complex, but what will happen is predetermined nevertheless.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    Much akin to philosophy in many ways!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭takamichinoku


    The first time I took psychedelics, my biggest concern was that I was going to suddenly find talk like this amazing.

    The second time I took psychedelics, my biggest concern was that the guy who spent the whole first time ****eing on about this kind of thing would launch into it again.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,928 ✭✭✭Hotfail.com


    You're missing the point, no one is saying that we can ever know what will happen as it's far too complex, but what will happen is predetermined nevertheless.

    Is there any proof of this? Like I said, only one thing can ever happen at a specific point in time.. So you can easily say it's all predetermined because of that, but is there actually any proof that I couldn't have made a different decision?


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    Actually, I learned enough about physics to know that a reference to chaos theory really is an arrogant human way of referring to the myriad of inter-related perfectly law abiding interactions. Nothing chaotic about it. Apart from to our tiny brains in assuming to somehow begin to understand it lol.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 192 ✭✭debit2credit


    That decision was a product of interact of molecules in your head, unless you have the ability to periodically change the laws of physics you were always going to make that decision.

    Please explain why the decision was a product of (I.e. caused) by the interaction of the molecules? Please note I don't deny that 'molecules' interact in the brain when decisions are made.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    We track the behaviour of one atom and think we've made some sort of quantum leap. All it takes is a breeze to **** up our analysis.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    Please explain why the decision was a product of (I.e. caused) by the interaction of the molecules? Please note I don't deny that 'molecules' interact in the brain when decisions are made.

    I could tell you, but a brain cell would die per milli second


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 192 ✭✭debit2credit


    Spot on!

    I think it gives me peace of mind knowing whatever happens was always gonna happen, just sit back and enjoy the ride!!

    Why? Do you believe that you have no moral responsibility because you have no free will?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    Is there any proof of this? Like I said, only one thing can ever happen at a specific point in time.. So you can easily say it's all predetermined because of that, but is there actually any proof that I couldn't have made a different decision?

    You need to break this down in your brain to very simple terms. I don't have my laptop so am one finger typing, otherwise I would try to explain


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 192 ✭✭debit2credit


    NipNip wrote: »
    I could tell you, but a brain cell would die per milli second

    Are you predetermined to give sarky replies? :pac:


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 30 Snowpavlova


    Please explain why the decision was a product of (I.e. caused) by the interaction of the molecules? Please note I don't deny that 'molecules' interact in the brain when decisions are made.

    What do you think causes your thought processes to take place? Does it just occur independent of any rational cause and effect?

    When you are thinking about a decision you have to make the atoms in your brain are interacting in the only way they can and come to a conclusion. Evolution has allowed your brain to be built in such a complex way that it feels like you have free will.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    Are you predetermined to give sarky replies? :pac:

    It would appear to be so!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 192 ✭✭debit2credit


    What do you think causes your thought processes to take place? Does it just occur independent of an rational cause and effect?

    I'm open minded. I'm no brain scientist or philosopher but I would like to know why you believe what you do. Does correlation in brain scans prove causation?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    Is there any proof of this? Like I said, only one thing can ever happen at a specific point in time.. So you can easily say it's all predetermined because of that, but is there actually any proof that I couldn't have made a different decision?

    We talk about hindsight. If you look back through decisions you made at any one time in the past, remove the benefit of hindsight, if you are analytical and honest enough, you will find that your decision was inevitable :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Johngoose


    I think that to a degree d.n.a. has a strong influence on how a person's life takes course.I know we all live in an increasingly politically correct society...But let's face it a person's physical appearance,personality and intelligence have a huge impact on how their life pans out,however cruel it might sound.I don't agree however that we are like robots when it comes to murdering or booking a holiday,I think there is free will in a lot of personal decisions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    Is there any proof of this? Like I said, only one thing can ever happen at a specific point in time.. So you can easily say it's all predetermined because of that, but is there actually any proof that I couldn't have made a different decision?

    Not really either way. Everything except consciousness is predetermined from the Big Bang though. So probably consciousness is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    From birth we are subject to the controlling factor of our DNA. We ARE our DNA and we cannot change that programming, it's literally who we are.

    I just felt a great disturbance, as of hundreds of thousands of geneticists crying out in pain as their palms connected with their faces hard enough to shatter bone.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,296 ✭✭✭Geomy


    Sarky wrote: »
    I just felt a great disturbance, as of hundreds of thousands of geneticists crying out in pain as their palms connected with their faces hard enough to shatter bone.

    Well Sarky, are you a Jedi Master now ?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,314 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    So we are nothing more than robotic machines subject to laws and programming at every level of existence.
    Can I blame said programming for the **** I did in your attic?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    Sarky wrote: »
    I just felt a great disturbance, as of hundreds of thousands of geneticists crying out in pain as their palms connected with their faces hard enough to shatter bone.

    Plenty of scientists think free will is an illusion.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    What I know is that there are so many myriads of interactions possible, we will never begin to be able to predict outcomes. FFs we can't predict the lotto balls. 42 balls. Ffs


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    I do however believe that all things follow immutable laws of physics:)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 192 ✭✭debit2credit


    When you are thinking about a decision you have to make the atoms in your brain are interacting in the only way they can and come to a conclusion.

    What about decisions I don't have to make? Why do I have freedom not to make decisions if everything is predetermined.
    Evolution has allowed your brain to be built in such a complex way that it feels like you have free will.

    I don't deny that evolution is the reason for the complexity of the human brain. But why does that make free will an illusion?


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