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Free will is an illusion and the biggest con ever.

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    #92
    NipNip
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    Hotfail.com wrote: »
    Is there any proof of this? Like I said, only one thing can ever happen at a specific point in time.. So you can easily say it's all predetermined because of that, but is there actually any proof that I couldn't have made a different decision?

    We talk about hindsight. If you look back through decisions you made at any one time in the past, remove the benefit of hindsight, if you are analytical and honest enough, you will find that your decision was inevitable :)


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    #93
    Johngoose
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Johngoose


    I think that to a degree d.n.a. has a strong influence on how a person's life takes course.I know we all live in an increasingly politically correct society...But let's face it a person's physical appearance,personality and intelligence have a huge impact on how their life pans out,however cruel it might sound.I don't agree however that we are like robots when it comes to murdering or booking a holiday,I think there is free will in a lot of personal decisions.


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    #94
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    Hotfail.com wrote: »
    Is there any proof of this? Like I said, only one thing can ever happen at a specific point in time.. So you can easily say it's all predetermined because of that, but is there actually any proof that I couldn't have made a different decision?

    Not really either way. Everything except consciousness is predetermined from the Big Bang though. So probably consciousness is.


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    #95
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    From birth we are subject to the controlling factor of our DNA. We ARE our DNA and we cannot change that programming, it's literally who we are.

    I just felt a great disturbance, as of hundreds of thousands of geneticists crying out in pain as their palms connected with their faces hard enough to shatter bone.


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    #96
    Geomy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,296 ✭✭✭Geomy


    Sarky wrote: »
    I just felt a great disturbance, as of hundreds of thousands of geneticists crying out in pain as their palms connected with their faces hard enough to shatter bone.

    Well Sarky, are you a Jedi Master now ?


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    #97
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    So we are nothing more than robotic machines subject to laws and programming at every level of existence.
    Can I blame said programming for the **** I did in your attic?


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    #98
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    Sarky wrote: »
    I just felt a great disturbance, as of hundreds of thousands of geneticists crying out in pain as their palms connected with their faces hard enough to shatter bone.

    Plenty of scientists think free will is an illusion.


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    #99
    NipNip
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    What I know is that there are so many myriads of interactions possible, we will never begin to be able to predict outcomes. FFs we can't predict the lotto balls. 42 balls. Ffs


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    #100
    NipNip
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    I do however believe that all things follow immutable laws of physics:)


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    #101
    debit2credit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 192 ✭✭debit2credit


    Snowpavlova wrote: »
    When you are thinking about a decision you have to make the atoms in your brain are interacting in the only way they can and come to a conclusion.

    What about decisions I don't have to make? Why do I have freedom not to make decisions if everything is predetermined.
    Snowpavlova wrote: »
    Evolution has allowed your brain to be built in such a complex way that it feels like you have free will.

    I don't deny that evolution is the reason for the complexity of the human brain. But why does that make free will an illusion?


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    #102
    ressem
    Registered Users Posts: 2,426 ✭✭✭ressem


    Snowpavlova wrote: »
    You're missing the point, no one is saying that we can ever know what will happen as it's far too complex, but what will happen is predetermined nevertheless.

    No I'm not missing the point. The OP is about free will.
    Predetermination involves having a model (mental, physical, mathematical, historical etc) that will match reality up to the desired point;
    other than the item or decision itself. (the pre- bit of predetermination)

    I'm saying that it is not possible to model the universe and the interactions and collisions between everything else.
    That even creating a model of the galaxy with all information as it exists today and playing it forwards would start to quickly diverge from the universe's version.
    It's probably not possible to model a bit of 'empty vacuum', when you see what happens in Casimir effect experiments.

    There are things that can be predicted with 99.99999..%. certainty. I think that there will always be turbulence that causes the predictions to stray from 100%.


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    #103
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    NipNip wrote: »
    Actually, I learned enough about physics to know that a reference to chaos theory really is an arrogant human way of referring to the myriad of inter-related perfectly law abiding interactions. Nothing chaotic about it. Apart from to our tiny brains in assuming to somehow begin to understand it lol.

    It's not really called chaos theory in the field. And chaotic systems are clearly "understandable" and can be modelled and the outcomes predicted. .


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    #104
    Snowpavlova
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 30 ✭Snowpavlova


    debit2credit wrote: »
    What about decisions I don't have to make? Why do I have freedom not to make decisions if everything is predetermined.



    I don't deny that evolution is the reason for the complexity of the human brain. But why does that make free will an illusion?

    You feel like you can make water decisions you want, and you can make the decisions you want, but they are still predetermined by the laws of physics.


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    #105
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    ressem wrote: »
    No I'm not missing the point. The OP is about free will.
    Predetermination involves having a model (mental, physical, mathematical, historical etc) that will match reality up to the desired point;
    other than the item or decision itself. (the pre- bit of predetermination)

    I'm saying that it is not possible to model the universe and the interactions and collisions between everything else.
    That even creating a model of the galaxy with all information as it exists today and playing it forwards would start to quickly diverge from the universe's version.
    It's probably not possible to model a bit of 'empty vacuum', when you see what happens in Casimir effect experiments.

    There are things that can be predicted with 99.99999..%. certainty. I think that there will always be turbulence that causes the predictions to stray from 100%.

    You've just missed the point in a more verbose fashion. A planets orbit is subject to the laws of physics regardless of whether it "knows" those laws. Either those laws lead to a determined conclusion or they don't. In classical physics they do.


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    #106
    gugleguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,959 ✭✭✭gugleguy


    jack, lay off using that wooden circular disc ouwijie board thingie you're always at to make serious decisions in the movies. It's useless. Burn it. Now.


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    #107
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    Everybody should move away from the "humans can't model the universe" argument. Of course not. But the universe would follow those laws even if we weren't there.

    The question is whether those laws apply to humans. I guess most people would think lower animals have no choice - an ant or a bee react to stimulus. Why not us?


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    #108
    NipNip
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    It's not really called chaos theory in the field. And chaotic systems are clearly "understandable" and can be modelled and the outcomes predicted. .

    Of one atom in a vacuum or have ye progressed to 20 atoms exposed to a summer breeze?


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    #109
    Snowpavlova
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 30 ✭Snowpavlova


    ressem wrote: »
    No I'm not missing the point. The OP is about free will.
    Predetermination involves having a model (mental, physical, mathematical, historical etc) that will match reality up to the desired point;
    other than the item or decision itself. (the pre- bit of predetermination)

    I'm saying that it is not possible to model the universe and the interactions and collisions between everything else.
    That even creating a model of the galaxy with all information as it exists today and playing it forwards would start to quickly diverge from the universe's version.
    It's probably not possible to model a bit of 'empty vacuum', when you see what happens in Casimir effect experiments.

    There are things that can be predicted with 99.99999..%. certainty. I think that there will always be turbulence that causes the predictions to stray from 100%.

    Now I know you're missing the point.

    It's predetermined regardless of it being too complex to model. It's too complex to model the results of the lotto, there's still on one way the balls are going to roll out for each draw.


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    #110
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    Plenty of scientists think free will is an illusion.

    They might well be right. It's got buggerall to do with DNA though. One look at identical twins is enough to make that OP claim fall apart. Oh, and gene therapy. We can and do control our DNA. It moulds us slightly but it's mostly insignificant in determining who we are.


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    #111
    ressem
    Registered Users Posts: 2,426 ✭✭✭ressem


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    You've just missed the point in a more verbose fashion. A planets orbit is subject to the laws of physics regardless of whether it "knows" those laws. Either those laws lead to a determined conclusion or they don't. In classical physics they do.

    Other way around. Physics is the study of the universe.

    The laws of physics are our model of how the universe works based on history, experiment, mathematics.
    If the planet is in a complex orbit we might end up repeatedly changing and modifying the laws as we observe deviations in an aspiration to achieve a notional perfect description.

    We're arguing as to whether the notional perfection description can exist.
    I'm suggesting that it's a fiction.


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    #112
    NipNip
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    Sarky wrote: »
    They might well be right. It's got buggerall to do with DNA though. One look at identical twins is enough to make that OP claim fall apart.

    No it's not! Twin one is fed at 10pm by mammy. Twin two is fed at 10pm by daddy. Twin one is being held, burped and fed at a different angle to twin two. Because mammy has had no sleep and daddy has. Mammy spots a spider on the wall and leaps to her feet. Almost dropping twin 1 in the process. Daddy calmly puts twin 2 into the cot while he deals with spider, mum and twin one.


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    #113
    NipNip
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    NipNip wrote: »
    No it's not! Twin one is fed at 10pm by mammy. Twin two is fed at 10pm by daddy. Twin one is being held, burped and fed at a different angle to twin two. Because mammy has had no sleep and daddy has. Mammy spots a spider on the wall and leaps to her feet. Almost dropping twin 1 in the process. Daddy calmly puts twin 2 into the cot while he deals with spider, mum and twin one.

    Identical twins with vastly different experiences of the same event


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    #114
    ressem
    Registered Users Posts: 2,426 ✭✭✭ressem


    Snowpavlova wrote: »
    Now I know you're missing the point.

    It's predetermined regardless of it being too complex to model. It's too complex to model the results of the lotto, there's still on one way the balls are going to roll out for each draw.

    It's not too complex. It would cost more than the prize.

    If you built an intricately detailed computer model of the chamber, the release mechanism and each of the balls in their exact starting orientation, their elasticity, room humidity, temperature lighting, surface contamination such as fingerprint oils you could probably improve your chances of 3-5 numbers, but perfectly predicting the collisions and turbulence is an unsolved maths problem.
    You can get close with a lot of work and energy.

    I suggest that it is not 'solved' / determined until it has occurred.


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    #115
    debit2credit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 192 ✭✭debit2credit


    Snowpavlova wrote: »
    You feel like you can make water decisions you want, and you can make the decisions you want, but they are still predetermined by the laws of physics.

    I think you are taking a leap of faith here.

    Particles interact according to the laws of physics. 'Molecules' in the brain interact when a decision is made. It doesn't follow that physics shows that decisions are predetermined.


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    #116
    Young Blood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 393 ✭✭Young Blood


    Morality is an important factor in the concept of 'Free Will'; there are some people who adhere to it on certain levels and others who don't.

    I remember Donal McIntyre once saying after been interviewed about his life as an investigative journalist whether he came to any conclusions. He said that the personality of the criminals who make it to the top are very like CEO's of companies.

    I thought that was an interesting observation since it says a lot about leadership and 'dna'. imo I think leaders are born and to an equal extent 'servants' are born.

    There is a simple explanation of why people make the decissions they do and why they don't.

    I think History is a good study of the topic.


    .


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    #117
    NipNip
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 656 ✭✭✭NipNip


    I just know that an inevitable outcome of this thread is that someone is going to pm me the lotto numbers


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    #118
    irishleeds
    Registered Users Posts: 27 ✭irishleeds


    Death is a man made concept...


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    #119
    wretcheddomain
    Registered Users Posts: 3,094 ✭✭✭wretcheddomain


    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    From birth we are subject to the controlling factor of our DNA. We ARE our DNA and we cannot change that programming, it's literally who we are.

    So we are nothing more than robotic machines subject to laws and programming at every level of existence.

    Our personalities are simply creations of a simulated and "known" programmed reality.

    How can the soul (holy spirit) that animates the human body be responsible for the bodies programmed actions?

    So your DNA has programmed you to say at a future date that you would question its programming.

    Determinism is synonymous with philosophical bullsh1t. How can I disprove determinism? Well, look at radioactive decay; there's a process right there that has no determined path of decay. Look at quantum mechanics, uncertainty built into the fabric of matter itself. If there's uncertainty at the fundamental level, then there's no reason to assume determinism at the macro level.

    Problem solved; don't know what took the philosophers and theologians so long.


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    #120
    Young Blood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 393 ✭✭Young Blood


    irishleeds wrote: »
    Death is a man made concept...

    The survival of the species is whats important and not the individuals. SO you can draw your own conclusions from that.


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    #121
    debit2credit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 192 ✭✭debit2credit


    Young Blood wrote: »
    The survival of the species is whats important and not the individuals. SO you can draw your own conclusions from that.

    Important to whom? Are you implying natural selection is a conscious process now....

    I think each individual is important. Oh wait I forgot I was preprogrammed to think that thankfully :pac:


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