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Free will is an illusion and the biggest con ever.

  • 09-08-2014 6:43am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭


    From birth we are subject to the controlling factor of our DNA. We ARE our DNA and we cannot change that programming, it's literally who we are.

    So we are nothing more than robotic machines subject to laws and programming at every level of existence.

    Our personalities are simply creations of a simulated and "known" programmed reality.

    How can the soul (holy spirit) that animates the human body be responsible for the bodies programmed actions?


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 260 ✭✭bboybaboy19


    People that believe this are always lazy mother****ers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    From birth we are subject to the controlling factor of our DNA. We ARE our DNA and we cannot change that programming, it's literally who we are.

    So we are nothing more than robotic machines subject to laws and programming at every level of existence.

    Our personalities are simply creations of a simulated and "known" programmed reality.

    How can the soul (holy spirit) that animates the human body be responsible for the bodies programmed actions?

    The concept of free will is complicated enough without bringing religion into it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,802 ✭✭✭✭Ted_YNWA


    So my DNA is responsible for the holiday I went on last month.

    Wasn't a conscience decision by me?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    Ted_YNWA wrote: »
    So my DNA is responsible for the holiday I went on last month.

    Wasn't a conscience decision by me?

    Yes a decision you were always gonna make, it wasn't a choice, because it happened it could never happen any other way.

    Why does someone choose to murder while others don't?

    It's in their brain make up, nothing they could ever do was gonna stop them committing this act.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,480 ✭✭✭Chancer3001


    If you see somebody drop their wallet, give it back, ignore it or try get it yourself.

    That's fee will. Not your DNA.


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  • Site Banned Posts: 6 xupe 6048 essy


    Time is just an illusion, There is no 'past' or 'present', there is no 'now'

    There just IS


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    If you see somebody drop their wallet, give it back, ignore it or try get it yourself.

    That's fee will. Not your DNA.

    While others would not hand it back.

    Why?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,480 ✭✭✭Chancer3001


    Cos they made a decision.

    That's what free will means.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,480 ✭✭✭Chancer3001


    Time is just an illusion, There is no 'past' or 'present', there is no 'now'

    There just IS

    If you're being serious, I wholeheartedly agree. I've argued this point many times before. I don't believe time exists


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 883 ✭✭✭somuj


    If you're being serious, I wholeheartedly agree. I've argued this point many times before. I don't believe time exists

    I too have argued this. Only a human concept.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,802 ✭✭✭✭Ted_YNWA


    Identical twins share the same DNA, how come the do not do the exact same things in life?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,480 ✭✭✭Chancer3001


    Also, you can't break thoughts into DNA.

    That's like saying DOGS ARE JUST AN ILLUSION - THEYRE JUST LUMPS OF ATOMS

    Fee will just means fee to choose what we want. Of course we can. And of course our brain and mind choose that. THATS WHAT IT IS!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    Cos they made a decision.

    That's what free will means.

    And why would there be two different outcomes?

    Upbringing?
    Past experience?

    A scumbag who was dragges up wouldn't
    hand it back.

    A respectable person who had a good upbringing would.

    That's not free will, that's a pretty determined action.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    Ted_YNWA wrote: »
    Identical twins share the same DNA, how come the do not do the exact same things in life?

    It's obviously more than DNA - there are environmental factors which each will encounter differently. The question boils down to whether the environment is also predestined. There's a case for it being so.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,810 ✭✭✭take everything


    Obviously there's no such thing as free will (as in some kind of agency outside of the constraints of causality in the physical world).
    So yeah in that sense free will is ridiculous.

    Unless you believe causality can be violated by some special brand of human hubris.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    Fee will just means fee to choose what we want. Of course we can. And of course our brain and mind choose that. THATS WHAT IT IS!!


    Think of a decision you made recently. Why did you make the decision you did? It was probably the result of dozens if not hundreds of different factors that existed at that particular moment.

    If you could go back to that particular moment what makes you think you would have chosen a different action than the one you did take?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 30 Snowpavlova


    smcgiff wrote: »
    It's obviously more than DNA - there are environmental factors which each will encounter differently. The question boils down to whether the environment is also predestined. There's a case for it being so.

    Of course it's predestined, the universe is a big mix of interacting particles. There was only ever one way they were going to interact. The unives is ultimately a much more complicated row of Dominos.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,802 ✭✭✭✭Ted_YNWA


    That decision was a product of interact of molecules in your head, unless you have the ability to periodically change the laws of physics you were always going to make that decision.

    Even if I did not have the means to do it?


    DNA does have an impact on life, as does life experiences.

    This Nature v Nurture debate has been going on for years, will never be a 100% clear answer to it.


    Edit: you have a new recruit to your philosophy here Jack, someone has just joined & continuing your teachings.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    Of course it's predestined, the universe is a big mix of interacting particles. There was only ever one way they were going to interact. The unives is ultimately a much more complicated row of Dominos.

    To play devil's advocate - the effects of quantum physics may be an altering agent.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    That decision was a product of interact of molecules in your head, unless you have the ability to periodically change the laws of physics you were always going to make that decision.

    Spot on!

    I think it gives me peace of mind knowing whatever happens was always gonna happen, just sit back and enjoy the ride!!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    Spot on!

    I think it gives me peace of mind knowing whatever happens was always gonna happen, just sit back and enjoy the ride!!


    Poor misunderstood Hitler and Bertie Ahern ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 260 ✭✭bboybaboy19


    Spot on!

    I think it gives me peace of mind knowing whatever happens was always gonna happen, just sit back and enjoy the ride!!

    See, lazy mother****er.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 909 ✭✭✭auldgranny


    Lad's it's eight on a Saturday morning. It's too early for this kind of thread. I am going back to sleep. Keep the arguing down.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,311 ✭✭✭✭Quazzie


    So if we could discover the difference in DNA between those who would murder, and those who wouldn't. Then we could just do a quick test at birth and lock up people from birth since it's in their DNA. That'd be handy. Well done OP.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 30 Snowpavlova


    Spot on!

    I think it gives me peace of mind knowing whatever happens was always gonna happen, just sit back and enjoy the ride!!

    It's best to not to "sit back" though, take responsibilty for your life, the initial conditions of your brain have been set so you can do this.

    I was always going to give you this advice. From the moment I was born a count down clock was ticking for the moment I gave you this advice. :D


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 30 Snowpavlova


    Quazzie wrote: »
    So if we could discover the difference in DNA between those who would murder, and those who wouldn't. Then we could just do a quick test at birth and lock up people from birth since it's in their DNA. That'd be handy. Well done OP.

    No it's far more complicated than just looking at DNA, You'd have to know how every molecule in the universe would interact.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,810 ✭✭✭take everything


    smcgiff wrote: »
    To play devil's advocate - the effects of quantum physics may be an altering agent.

    Quantum effects don't imbue someone with agency.
    They're still bound by causality (which is what matters).

    And those effects would be random anyway (even less an argument for agency, no?)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 925 ✭✭✭Plates


    People that believe this are always lazy mother****ers.

    And probably a little chubby round the middle.

    "It's not my fault, my DNA predisposes me to be overweight and my lack of free will prevents me from saying no to an extra slice of cake and can of coke".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 260 ✭✭bboybaboy19


    Plates wrote: »
    And probably a little chubby round the middle.

    "It's not my fault, my DNA predisposes me to be overweight and my lack of free will prevents me from saying no to an extra slice of cake and can of coke".

    And at the bottom of a career ladder

    "If I was meant to get my dream job then it'd just happen. I'm predisposed to work this hard and my bosses are predisposed to give me the promotion, there's literally nothing I can do"


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,532 ✭✭✭Lou.m


    From birth we are subject to the controlling factor of our DNA. We ARE our DNA and we cannot change that programming, it's literally who we are.

    So we are nothing more than robotic machines subject to laws and programming at every level of existence.

    Our personalities are simply creations of a simulated and "known" programmed reality.

    How can the soul (holy spirit) that animates the human body be responsible for the bodies programmed actions?

    Who or what made you write this post? Your DNA?

    So some people are born assholes and I just happened to be born nice?:p


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,592 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    If I murder someone am I responsible then?or if I save someone from drowning it's nothing to be proud of?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,802 ✭✭✭✭Ted_YNWA


    If I murdered someone, I can claim that my DNA made me do it.

    Would be laughed out of every courthouse in the land with that defence.

    Judge would send me on numerous mental health studies.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    And at the bottom of a career ladder

    "If I was meant to get my dream job then it'd just happen. I'm predisposed to work this hard and my bosses are predisposed to give me the promotion, there's literally nothing I can do"

    Certainly not the case here sir!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    Ted_YNWA wrote: »
    If I murdered someone, I can claim that my DNA made me do it.

    Would be laughed out of every courthouse in the land with that defence.

    Judge would send me on numerous mental health studies.

    Not really, ever heard of pleading insanity or schizo?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 260 ✭✭bboybaboy19


    Not really, ever heard of pleading insanity or schizo?

    Not even remotely the same thing.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,802 ✭✭✭✭Ted_YNWA


    Not really, ever heard of pleading insanity or schizo?

    From your OP.
    How can the soul (holy spirit) that animates the human body be responsible for the bodies programmed actions?

    So my soul being within my human form will still be punished for what I was preprogrammed to do?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    Ted_YNWA wrote: »
    From your OP.



    So my soul being within my human form will still be punished for what I was preprogrammed to do?

    Exactly.

    Its a scary thought at first.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,779 ✭✭✭Spunge


    Did someone drop a few yokes last night ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,802 ✭✭✭✭Ted_YNWA


    Spunge wrote: »
    Did someone drop a few yokes last night ?

    Or was watching Minority Report.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 30 Snowpavlova


    kneemos wrote: »
    If I murder someone am I responsible then?or if I save someone from drowning it's nothing to be proud of?

    It's something that was always going to happen, make of that what you will.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Of course it's predestined, the universe is a big mix of interacting particles. There was only ever one way they were going to interact. The unives is ultimately a much more complicated row of Dominos.

    Quantum uncertainty very much disagrees


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,802 ✭✭✭✭Ted_YNWA


    It's something that was always going to happen, make of that what you will.

    Who controls this giant script that we are all part of & can I get a copy?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    Spunge wrote: »
    Did someone drop a few yokes last night ?

    Nice response to a thought provoking topic!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Time is just an illusion, There is no 'past' or 'present', there is no 'now'

    There just IS

    When was the light from distant suns emitted so?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 30 Snowpavlova


    Quantum uncertainty very much disagrees

    I don't think it does at all, We just don't understand the cause and effects well enough.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 260 ✭✭bboybaboy19


    Nice response to a thought provoking topic!

    It's a stoner thought and has no real merit tbh


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    It's a stoner thought and has no real merit tbh

    Well google it and see if it is just a stoner thought.

    Its one of the oldest debates ever.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    I don't think it does at all, We just don't understand the cause and effects well enough.

    Make sure to tell Mr Hawking et el


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,810 ✭✭✭take everything


    Ted_YNWA wrote: »
    Who controls this giant script that we are all part of & can I get a copy?

    At the moment, nobody knows.
    No.

    What is it about the unknown/unknowable and us humans.
    It scares the **** out of us.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,076 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    I think "free will" is a bit like "spirits" in that it gets invoked to "explain" things for which we don't currently have an explanation. But just because something is currently unexplained, it doesn't mean that it's unexplainable in principle. Religions seem to me to be driven by a need for explanations of the unexplained at all costs, when it would be better to say "we don't know yet" and leave it at that.

    We have all these interactions between ourselves and our environments (human or otherwise), going on all the time, building up knowledge and experience over the decades. So my conclusion is that we don't act randomly, or with "free will" that defies nature, just that our thought processes are extremely complex. All those inputs and influences (past and present) go in to every thought you have, thought you don't know it.

    You are the type of what the age is searching for, and what it is afraid it has found. I am so glad that you have never done anything, never carved a statue, or painted a picture, or produced anything outside of yourself! Life has been your art. You have set yourself to music. Your days are your sonnets.

    ―Oscar Wilde predicting Social Media, in The Picture of Dorian Gray



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