Free will is an illusion and the biggest con ever.

.jacksparrow. · 09-08-2014 6:43am #1

From birth we are subject to the controlling factor of our DNA. We ARE our DNA and we cannot change that programming, it's literally who we are.

So we are nothing more than robotic machines subject to laws and programming at every level of existence.

Our personalities are simply creations of a simulated and "known" programmed reality.

How can the soul (holy spirit) that animates the human body be responsible for the bodies programmed actions?

bboybaboy19 · 09-08-2014 6:47am

People that believe this are always lazy mother****ers.

smcgiff · 09-08-2014 6:47am

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

From birth we are subject to the controlling factor of our DNA. We ARE our DNA and we cannot change that programming, it's literally who we are.

So we are nothing more than robotic machines subject to laws and programming at every level of existence.

Our personalities are simply creations of a simulated and "known" programmed reality.

How can the soul (holy spirit) that animates the human body be responsible for the bodies programmed actions?

The concept of free will is complicated enough without bringing religion into it.

Ted_YNWA · 09-08-2014 6:49am

So my DNA is responsible for the holiday I went on last month.

Wasn't a conscience decision by me?

.jacksparrow. · 09-08-2014 6:52am

Ted_YNWA wrote: »

So my DNA is responsible for the holiday I went on last month.

Wasn't a conscience decision by me?

Yes a decision you were always gonna make, it wasn't a choice, because it happened it could never happen any other way.

Why does someone choose to murder while others don't?

It's in their brain make up, nothing they could ever do was gonna stop them committing this act.

Chancer3001 · 09-08-2014 6:53am

If you see somebody drop their wallet, give it back, ignore it or try get it yourself.

That's fee will. Not your DNA.

xupe 6048 essy · 09-08-2014 6:53am

Time is just an illusion, There is no 'past' or 'present', there is no 'now'

There just IS

.jacksparrow. · 09-08-2014 6:54am

Chancer3001 wrote: »

If you see somebody drop their wallet, give it back, ignore it or try get it yourself.

That's fee will. Not your DNA.

While others would not hand it back.

Why?

Chancer3001 · 09-08-2014 6:54am

Cos they made a decision.

That's what free will means.

Chancer3001 · 09-08-2014 6:55am

xupe 6048 essy wrote: »

Time is just an illusion, There is no 'past' or 'present', there is no 'now'

There just IS

If you're being serious, I wholeheartedly agree. I've argued this point many times before. I don't believe time exists

somuj · 09-08-2014 6:58am

Chancer3001 wrote: »

If you're being serious, I wholeheartedly agree. I've argued this point many times before. I don't believe time exists

I too have argued this. Only a human concept.

Ted_YNWA · 09-08-2014 6:58am

Identical twins share the same DNA, how come the do not do the exact same things in life?

Chancer3001 · 09-08-2014 7:01am

Also, you can't break thoughts into DNA.

That's like saying DOGS ARE JUST AN ILLUSION - THEYRE JUST LUMPS OF ATOMS

Fee will just means fee to choose what we want. Of course we can. And of course our brain and mind choose that. THATS WHAT IT IS!!

.jacksparrow. · 09-08-2014 7:04am

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Cos they made a decision.

That's what free will means.

And why would there be two different outcomes?

Upbringing?
Past experience?

A scumbag who was dragges up wouldn't
hand it back.

A respectable person who had a good upbringing would.

That's not free will, that's a pretty determined action.

smcgiff · 09-08-2014 7:05am

Ted_YNWA wrote: »

Identical twins share the same DNA, how come the do not do the exact same things in life?

It's obviously more than DNA - there are environmental factors which each will encounter differently. The question boils down to whether the environment is also predestined. There's a case for it being so.

take everything · 09-08-2014 7:05am

Obviously there's no such thing as free will (as in some kind of agency outside of the constraints of causality in the physical world).
So yeah in that sense free will is ridiculous.

Unless you believe causality can be violated by some special brand of human hubris.

smcgiff · 09-08-2014 7:11am

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Fee will just means fee to choose what we want. Of course we can. And of course our brain and mind choose that. THATS WHAT IT IS!!

Think of a decision you made recently. Why did you make the decision you did? It was probably the result of dozens if not hundreds of different factors that existed at that particular moment.

If you could go back to that particular moment what makes you think you would have chosen a different action than the one you did take?

Snowpavlova · 09-08-2014 7:11am

smcgiff wrote: »

It's obviously more than DNA - there are environmental factors which each will encounter differently. The question boils down to whether the environment is also predestined. There's a case for it being so.

Of course it's predestined, the universe is a big mix of interacting particles. There was only ever one way they were going to interact. The unives is ultimately a much more complicated row of Dominos.

Ted_YNWA · 09-08-2014 7:11am

Snowpavlova wrote: »

That decision was a product of interact of molecules in your head, unless you have the ability to periodically change the laws of physics you were always going to make that decision.

Even if I did not have the means to do it?

DNA does have an impact on life, as does life experiences.

This Nature v Nurture debate has been going on for years, will never be a 100% clear answer to it.

Edit: you have a new recruit to your philosophy here Jack, someone has just joined & continuing your teachings.

smcgiff · 09-08-2014 7:15am

Snowpavlova wrote: »

Of course it's predestined, the universe is a big mix of interacting particles. There was only ever one way they were going to interact. The unives is ultimately a much more complicated row of Dominos.

To play devil's advocate - the effects of quantum physics may be an altering agent.

.jacksparrow. · 09-08-2014 7:16am

Snowpavlova wrote: »

That decision was a product of interact of molecules in your head, unless you have the ability to periodically change the laws of physics you were always going to make that decision.

Spot on!

I think it gives me peace of mind knowing whatever happens was always gonna happen, just sit back and enjoy the ride!!

smcgiff · 09-08-2014 7:18am

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Spot on!

I think it gives me peace of mind knowing whatever happens was always gonna happen, just sit back and enjoy the ride!!

Poor misunderstood Hitler and Bertie Ahern

bboybaboy19 · 09-08-2014 7:19am

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Spot on!

I think it gives me peace of mind knowing whatever happens was always gonna happen, just sit back and enjoy the ride!!

See, lazy mother****er.

auldgranny · 09-08-2014 7:19am

Lad's it's eight on a Saturday morning. It's too early for this kind of thread. I am going back to sleep. Keep the arguing down.

Quazzie · 09-08-2014 7:20am

So if we could discover the difference in DNA between those who would murder, and those who wouldn't. Then we could just do a quick test at birth and lock up people from birth since it's in their DNA. That'd be handy. Well done OP.

Snowpavlova · 09-08-2014 7:22am

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Spot on!

I think it gives me peace of mind knowing whatever happens was always gonna happen, just sit back and enjoy the ride!!

It's best to not to "sit back" though, take responsibilty for your life, the initial conditions of your brain have been set so you can do this.

I was always going to give you this advice. From the moment I was born a count down clock was ticking for the moment I gave you this advice.

Snowpavlova · 09-08-2014 7:23am

Quazzie wrote: »

So if we could discover the difference in DNA between those who would murder, and those who wouldn't. Then we could just do a quick test at birth and lock up people from birth since it's in their DNA. That'd be handy. Well done OP.

No it's far more complicated than just looking at DNA, You'd have to know how every molecule in the universe would interact.

take everything · 09-08-2014 7:24am

smcgiff wrote: »

To play devil's advocate - the effects of quantum physics may be an altering agent.

Quantum effects don't imbue someone with agency.
They're still bound by causality (which is what matters).

And those effects would be random anyway (even less an argument for agency, no?)

Plates · 09-08-2014 7:24am

bboybaboy19 wrote: »

People that believe this are always lazy mother****ers.

And probably a little chubby round the middle.

"It's not my fault, my DNA predisposes me to be overweight and my lack of free will prevents me from saying no to an extra slice of cake and can of coke".

bboybaboy19 · 09-08-2014 7:26am

Plates wrote: »

And probably a little chubby round the middle.

"It's not my fault, my DNA predisposes me to be overweight and my lack of free will prevents me from saying no to an extra slice of cake and can of coke".

And at the bottom of a career ladder

"If I was meant to get my dream job then it'd just happen. I'm predisposed to work this hard and my bosses are predisposed to give me the promotion, there's literally nothing I can do"

Lou.m · 09-08-2014 7:28am

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

From birth we are subject to the controlling factor of our DNA. We ARE our DNA and we cannot change that programming, it's literally who we are.

So we are nothing more than robotic machines subject to laws and programming at every level of existence.

Our personalities are simply creations of a simulated and "known" programmed reality.

How can the soul (holy spirit) that animates the human body be responsible for the bodies programmed actions?

Who or what made you write this post? Your DNA?

So some people are born assholes and I just happened to be born nice?:p

kneemos · 09-08-2014 7:30am

If I murder someone am I responsible then?or if I save someone from drowning it's nothing to be proud of?

Ted_YNWA · 09-08-2014 7:31am

If I murdered someone, I can claim that my DNA made me do it.

Would be laughed out of every courthouse in the land with that defence.

Judge would send me on numerous mental health studies.

.jacksparrow. · 09-08-2014 7:35am

bboybaboy19 wrote: »

And at the bottom of a career ladder

"If I was meant to get my dream job then it'd just happen. I'm predisposed to work this hard and my bosses are predisposed to give me the promotion, there's literally nothing I can do"

Certainly not the case here sir!

.jacksparrow. · 09-08-2014 7:36am

Ted_YNWA wrote: »

If I murdered someone, I can claim that my DNA made me do it.

Would be laughed out of every courthouse in the land with that defence.

Judge would send me on numerous mental health studies.

Not really, ever heard of pleading insanity or schizo?

bboybaboy19 · 09-08-2014 7:38am

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Not really, ever heard of pleading insanity or schizo?

Not even remotely the same thing.

Ted_YNWA · 09-08-2014 7:38am

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Not really, ever heard of pleading insanity or schizo?

From your OP.

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

How can the soul (holy spirit) that animates the human body be responsible for the bodies programmed actions?

So my soul being within my human form will still be punished for what I was preprogrammed to do?

.jacksparrow. · 09-08-2014 7:39am

Ted_YNWA wrote: »

From your OP.

So my soul being within my human form will still be punished for what I was preprogrammed to do?

Exactly.

Its a scary thought at first.

Spunge · 09-08-2014 7:42am

Did someone drop a few yokes last night ?

Ted_YNWA · 09-08-2014 7:45am

Spunge wrote: »

Did someone drop a few yokes last night ?

Or was watching Minority Report.

Snowpavlova · 09-08-2014 7:46am

kneemos wrote: »

If I murder someone am I responsible then?or if I save someone from drowning it's nothing to be proud of?

It's something that was always going to happen, make of that what you will.

LeinsterDub · 09-08-2014 7:49am

Snowpavlova wrote: »

Of course it's predestined, the universe is a big mix of interacting particles. There was only ever one way they were going to interact. The unives is ultimately a much more complicated row of Dominos.

Quantum uncertainty very much disagrees

Ted_YNWA · 09-08-2014 7:50am

Snowpavlova wrote: »

It's something that was always going to happen, make of that what you will.

Who controls this giant script that we are all part of & can I get a copy?

.jacksparrow. · 09-08-2014 7:50am

Spunge wrote: »

Did someone drop a few yokes last night ?

Nice response to a thought provoking topic!

LeinsterDub · 09-08-2014 7:50am

xupe 6048 essy wrote: »

Time is just an illusion, There is no 'past' or 'present', there is no 'now'

There just IS

When was the light from distant suns emitted so?

Snowpavlova · 09-08-2014 7:50am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Quantum uncertainty very much disagrees

I don't think it does at all, We just don't understand the cause and effects well enough.

bboybaboy19 · 09-08-2014 8:01am

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Nice response to a thought provoking topic!

It's a stoner thought and has no real merit tbh

.jacksparrow. · 09-08-2014 8:03am

bboybaboy19 wrote: »

It's a stoner thought and has no real merit tbh

Well google it and see if it is just a stoner thought.

Its one of the oldest debates ever.

LeinsterDub · 09-08-2014 8:07am

Snowpavlova wrote: »

I don't think it does at all, We just don't understand the cause and effects well enough.

Make sure to tell Mr Hawking et el

take everything · 09-08-2014 8:08am

Ted_YNWA wrote: »

Who controls this giant script that we are all part of & can I get a copy?

At the moment, nobody knows.
No.

What is it about the unknown/unknowable and us humans.
It scares the **** out of us.

bnt · 09-08-2014 8:14am

I think "free will" is a bit like "spirits" in that it gets invoked to "explain" things for which we don't currently have an explanation. But just because something is currently unexplained, it doesn't mean that it's unexplainable in principle. Religions seem to me to be driven by a need for explanations of the unexplained at all costs, when it would be better to say "we don't know yet" and leave it at that.

We have all these interactions between ourselves and our environments (human or otherwise), going on all the time, building up knowledge and experience over the decades. So my conclusion is that we don't act randomly, or with "free will" that defies nature, just that our thought processes are extremely complex. All those inputs and influences (past and present) go in to every thought you have, thought you don't know it.

Free will is an illusion and the biggest con ever.

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