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Does racism automatically make someone a bad person?

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    #182
    Feathers
    Registered Users Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭Feathers


    raah! wrote: »
    You do understand why you are taking the action, because your parents or the government told you to.

    Yeah, but you don't understand the reason that they've asked you to. You're complying because you think they know best, not because you've thought through the consequences of what they've asked you to do.

    Just like some people who went with the status quo in generations gone by, in relation to racism.

    But both you with your parents & them with an authority figure were acting ignorantly, as you had no exposure to cursing & they had no exposure to black people.
    raah! wrote: »
    And there are easier examples. Saying "hurting people is bad because my parents told me it was", is ignorant, if you have received this from your parents. You miss the point if you go back steps, Because I can just declare the first point given to you by your parents or society as something about which you are ignorant.

    Not really sure what you mean here…
    raah! wrote: »
    Feathers wrote: »
    Nobody would judge someone for having an irrational fear, but banning all Irish people from the shop is treating them indiscriminately as one group, which presumably is done through ignorance or immorality.
    What presumably? I said she didn't want any of them because she was afraid of them all. She is indiscriminately afraid of them.

    This again contradicts the terms of the example. She has an irrational fear of irish people. It's not because she doesn't know not all irish people are drunkards, she is afraid of all irish people because many of them are drunkards.

    I'm saying that presumably that's why she's banning all Irish people; she has no other reasons. A minute ago, you said she was afraid of drunks & she was banning all Irish people, "just in case". See:
    raah! wrote: »
    If you think there is no true negative generalisation about groups of people then how about "alot of irish people like to drink, I'm terrified of drunkards, therefore, just in case, I don't let irish people in my shop".
    raah! wrote: »
    I'm saying a woman with a fear of drunks, not wanting drunks in her shop, is not necessarily a bad person. It's unfortunate that she is afraid of irish people, but her being afraid of them does not make her bad.

    Now you're changing your example round.


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    #183
    solas111
    Registered Users Posts: 399 ✭✭solas111


    The following incident occurred last week. I was not a witness so I am relying on the accounts of third parties but I have no reason to believe that they are not telling the truth.

    A group of travellers/itinerants pulled into the car park of supermarket in a small town and parked their vans there. Some of the children ran amok in the shop and the management had to shut the doors and turn away paying customers. The travellers were asked to move but refused to do so. The shop remained closed until a court order could be obtained that allowed the Gardai to move them on.

    Business people along the route that the convoy then took had been fore warned and they shut off access to their car parks. However, the travellers did gain entry to the parking area of one shop. They were told that the car park was for the use of shop customers only and not a public parking area and they moved on.

    There are several definitions of ‘race’ and they do not all relate to skin colour. For example, The Free Dictionary by Farlex has the following as one definition: “Humans considered as a group”.

    Therefore, in dealing with the travellers in the way that they did, are these business people racists? Were they wrong to take action that they believed to be necessary in order to protect their livelihoods? Are they bad people?

    Just to be clear – I am not suggesting that all travellers are bad people or better or worse than anyone else. Neither am I raising the question of halting sites etc. or any related matters. My questions relate only to the manner in which people dealt with this group and whether or not these business people would be considered racists or bad people.


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    #184
    Feathers
    Registered Users Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭Feathers


    solas111 wrote: »
    The following incident occurred last week. I was not a witness so I am relying on the accounts of third parties but I have no reason to believe that they are not telling the truth.

    A group of travellers/itinerants pulled into the car park of supermarket in a small town and parked their vans there. Some of the children ran amok in the shop and the management had to shut the doors and turn away paying customers. The travellers were asked to move but refused to do so. The shop remained closed until a court order could be obtained that allowed the Gardai to move them on.

    Business people along the route that the convoy then took had been fore warned and they shut off access to their car parks. However, the travellers did gain entry to the parking area of one shop. They were told that the car park was for the use of shop customers only and not a public parking area and they moved on.

    There are several definitions of ‘race’ and they do not all relate to skin colour. For example, The Free Dictionary by Farlex has the following as one definition: “Humans considered as a group”.

    Therefore, in dealing with the travellers in the way that they did, are these business people racists? Were they wrong to take action that they believed to be necessary in order to protect their livelihoods? Are they bad people?

    Just to be clear – I am not suggesting that all travellers are bad people or better or worse than anyone else. Neither am I raising the question of halting sites etc. or any related matters. My questions relate only to the manner in which people dealt with this group and whether or not these business people would be considered racists or bad people.

    Did the subsequent businesses refuse them access because they were travellers, or because they'd trashed a previous shop?


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    #185
    raah!
    Registered Users Posts: 2,629 ✭✭✭raah!


    Feathers wrote: »
    Yeah, but you don't understand the reason that they've asked you to. You're complying because you think they know best, not because you've thought through the consequences of what they've asked you to do.

    Just like some people who went with the status quo in generations gone by, in relation to racism.

    But both you with your parents & them with an authority figure were acting ignorantly, as you had no exposure to cursing & they had no exposure to black people.



    Not really sure what you mean here…
    If you don't understand this second part then you don't understand the first part and that's why your response doesn't address the point I was making with both of those pieces of text.

    I'm saying that presumably that's why she's banning all Irish people; she has no other reasons. A minute ago, you said she was afraid of drunks & she was banning all Irish people, "just in case". See:





    Now you're changing your example round.
    And again you don't understand. Those t hings were explicitly connected in what I said. She is afraid of drunkards, she has heard that there are alot of irish drunkards, so therefore, because she is afraid of drunkards, and thinks that it's likely that an irish person will be a drunkard, she is afraid of irish people because they are likely drunkards.


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    #186
    Feathers
    Registered Users Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭Feathers


    raah! wrote: »
    And again you don't understand. Those t hings were explicitly connected in what I said. She is afraid of drunkards, she has heard that there are alot of irish drunkards, so therefore, because she is afraid of drunkards, and thinks that it's likely that an irish person will be a drunkard, she is afraid of irish people because they are likely drunkards.

    So again, just to be clear, she's barring all Irish people "to be on the safe side" but you're saying it's not from ignorance (I.e. she knows not all Irish people are drunks) and it's not from bigotry, but a third option.

    But If an eloquent, well dressed, sober Irishman walks up to the shop & she's not prejudiced against him, what other reason is there to assume he's drunk?


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    #187
    Mint Aero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,570 ✭✭✭Mint Aero


    Therefore, in dealing with the travellers in the way that they did, are these business people racists? Were they wrong to take action that they believed to be necessary in order to protect their livelihoods? Are they bad people?

    Yes, they're both racist and bad people. They should've designated no less than 8 parking spaces for caravans. Preferably, rezoning their entire parking lot so that travellers get preferential spaces over differently abled people.

    Furthermore, the businesses should've provided skips, water facilities and electricity to their new halting sites. Honestly makes my blood boil when I hear of businesses not facilitating our lands native and noble people.


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    #188
    raah!
    Registered Users Posts: 2,629 ✭✭✭raah!


    Feathers wrote: »
    So again, just to be clear, she's barring all Irish people "to be on the safe side" but you're saying it's not from ignorance (I.e. she knows not all Irish people are drunks) and it's not from bigotry, but a third option.

    But If an eloquent, well dressed, sober Irishman walks up to the shop & she's not prejudiced against him, what other reason is there to assume he's drunk?
    Everything you are asking and every criticism of the example you've made has been addressed more than once in my posts. Read the posts more closely and you'll see that the answers to these questions are contained within them. I don't see the point in repeating the explanation I just made.


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    #189
    Killer Wench
    Registered Users Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭Killer Wench


    Ten of Swords wrote: »
    My 2c... If it's a fact backed by science and studies then it's not racist but if you use it to promote an agenda or undermine people then yes it can be seen as racist.

    These studies have been refuted on multiple threads in AH. It's an agenda continuously dragged out like it is fact.


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    #190
    BuilderPlumber
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    Racism is a horrible thing and often distorts the real issues at hand. But good people are lead into it by what they hear and are told. Because some evil person who happens to belong to a certain group does evil, then everyone is equated with this. You see this with Islam (everyone is assumed to be al Qaeda/Taliban terrorists which is very very far from the reality) and with the media's stereotypes of certain countries in the world (for example, you only hear negative things about most of Africa and the Middle East in the news and NEVER the good things).

    In Ireland, the travellers are blamed for all the crime especially rural robberies. As a victim of this, I know that no travellers were involved and the guy jailed for it was a local settled smalltime drug dealer and addict. But I remember at the time these robberies were happening (there was one almost every night for 6 months somewhere in my area), everyone was saying it was travellers. No doubt, the person who really did it was among those saying it was travellers!


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    #191
    Leftist
    Registered Users Posts: 2,230 ✭✭✭Leftist


    woodoo wrote: »
    Before you get too smart look at the trend in those numbers.

    86% still isn't the minority though is it? I'd imagine it's got a long way to go to be a minority if the rate is 10% drop in 20 years.

    Bear in mind many children with mixed race will not be considered white.

    Either way it's totally and absolutely irrelevant.

    Morons were complaining about migrants to their towns and villages, from within their own country until 20 years ago. There will always be idiots that are frightened by outsiders coming in. This is natural reaction among people who don't have any concept of what it is like to live outside the area which they grew up.

    So what if some kid isn't white? are we to suggest that the 14% of Sweden that isn't white cannot be considered Swedish?

    Will some black kids who were born in ireland and grew up in ireland, even some who played GAA, will they be considered irish?


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    #192
    Clandestine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭Clandestine


    Can I make something clear, I don't have an issue with immigration as a whole but the main issue here is that it is occurring at too large of a scale at the moment. If people want to travel to England, Ireland etc. and work hard, get a job and contribute to society I don't have an issue with that, but unfortunately there is an exorbitant amount of migrants who survive solely on government handouts and refuse to find work which is a lose-lose situation for all. I realise this is not an issue that is exclusive to migrants, but in my opinion original citizens should come first and migrants shouldn't be supported on the scale that they are.


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    #193
    Leftist
    Registered Users Posts: 2,230 ✭✭✭Leftist


    Clandestine wrote: »
    Can I make something clear, I don't have an issue with immigration as a whole but the main issue here is that it is occurring at too large of a scale at the moment. If people want to travel to England, Ireland etc. and work hard, get a job and contribute to society I don't have an issue with that, but unfortunately there is an exorbitant amount of migrants who survive solely on government handouts and refuse to find work which is a lose-lose situation for all. I realise this is not an issue that is exclusive to migrants, but in my opinion original citizens should come first and migrants shouldn't be supported on the scale that they are.

    Do you have any data or information, credible survey or study based information that shows that foreign peoples are coming en masse and refusing to work?

    I think that is a lie tbh.


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    #194
    Clandestine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭Clandestine


    Leftist wrote: »
    Do you have any data or information, credible survey or study based information that shows that foreign peoples are coming en masse and refusing to work?

    I think that is a lie tbh.
    I'm not saying all of them refuse work (in fact, it seems that in some places they are accepting work at a faster rate than citizens) but thats not always the case:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9026401/370000-migrants-on-the-dole.html

    370,000 people, thats costing taxpayers billions of pounds every year.


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    #195
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Friend Computer wrote: »



    Alright, the stats there bear out. But you have to admit there might be a perception that blacks are more at risk; when you consider the number of white nationalist/white supremacist organisations it's hard not to see why.

    Still, what're the stats with regards numbers of whites versus blacks in... shall we say problem areas of cities?

    The FBI website is a treasure trove of information. Maybe you should look into it. Challange that perception of yours.
    Friend Computer wrote: »
    Statistics don't really tell you much if you ignore the context behind them.

    So I gave you stats to prove your assertion wrong and you dont accept them. Interesting.
    Friend Computer wrote: »

    Not in recent times, no

    Willful ignorance.


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    #196
    Henlars67
    Registered Users Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭Henlars67


    Leftist wrote: »
    86% still isn't the minority though is it? I'd imagine it's got a long way to go to be a minority if the rate is 10% drop in 20 years.

    Bear in mind many children with mixed race will not be considered white.

    Either way it's totally and absolutely irrelevant.

    Morons were complaining about migrants to their towns and villages, from within their own country until 20 years ago. There will always be idiots that are frightened by outsiders coming in. This is natural reaction among people who don't have any concept of what it is like to live outside the area which they grew up.

    So what if some kid isn't white? are we to suggest that the 14% of Sweden that isn't white cannot be considered Swedish?

    Will some black kids who were born in ireland and grew up in ireland, even some who played GAA, will they be considered irish?

    During the Celtic Tiger when the village I grew up in had a few new housing estates built, loads of the more-narrow minded locals were constantly giving out about "all the fcuking townies" who were moving into the area.

    And they weren't joking about it either. They really resented the fact that outsiders were coming to live there.

    They've accepted it now, but it took a few years, though some still don't like to see 'blow-ins' on the committees of local clubs and groups.

    That's rural ireland for ya.


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    #197
    Leftist
    Registered Users Posts: 2,230 ✭✭✭Leftist


    Clandestine wrote: »
    I'm not saying all of them refuse work (in fact, it seems that in some places they are accepting work at a faster rate than citizens) but thats not always the case:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9026401/370000-migrants-on-the-dole.html

    370,000 people, thats costing taxpayers billions of pounds every year.

    370,000 out of a reported 20.3m people reported receiving benefits in the UK.

    and you did say they refused to work:
    but unfortunately there is an exorbitant amount of migrants who survive solely on government handouts and refuse to find work


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    #198
    Clandestine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭Clandestine


    Leftist wrote: »
    370,000 out of a reported 20.3m people reported receiving benefits in the UK.

    and you did say they refused to work:
    I think 370,000 people on benefits (and yes I would say a sizable amount of them refuse work) is still an exorbitant amount tbh. Maybe its a small amount out of the total in your opinion, but the impact it has is still felt.


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    #199
    Leftist
    Registered Users Posts: 2,230 ✭✭✭Leftist


    Clandestine wrote: »
    I think 370,000 people on benefits (and yes I would say a sizable amount of them refuse work) is still an exorbitant amount tbh. Maybe its a small amount out of the total in your opinion, but the impact it has is still felt.

    how can you say that a sizeable amount refuse to work. Some might, but without any information to back it up it's just an assumption and the numbers of which are totally pie in the sky.
    d


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    #200
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    Clandestine wrote: »
    I think 370,000 people on benefits (and yes I would say a sizable amount of them refuse work) is still an exorbitant amount tbh. Maybe its a small amount out of the total in your opinion, but the impact it has is still felt.

    How does it impact you, specifically?


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    #201
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Clandestine wrote: »
    I'm not saying all of them refuse work (in fact, it seems that in some places they are accepting work at a faster rate than citizens) but thats not always the case:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9026401/370000-migrants-on-the-dole.html

    370,000 people, thats costing taxpayers billions of pounds every year.

    That's cost British taxpayers billions a year. We're Irish.

    So "migrants" can't lose a job, get sick, or go on holiday?


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    #202
    Clandestine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭Clandestine


    old hippy wrote: »
    How does it impact you, specifically?
    Am I not allowed to have concerns for another countries well being?


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    #203
    Leftist
    Registered Users Posts: 2,230 ✭✭✭Leftist


    Clandestine wrote: »
    Am I not allowed to have concerns for another countries well being?

    :D


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    #204
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Clandestine wrote: »
    Am I not allowed to have concerns for another countries well being?


    You still haven't answered my point re the fact that many "native Britons" are in fact not white.


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    #205
    brokenarms
    Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭brokenarms


    I think its great that we have such a diverse community , but I hate the ones who come over work one year and abuse the our welfare system for the next 5+ years.

    My street seems to be full of eastern european families who don't work and I suspect are claiming the unmarried single mothers benefit. They just sit there on their arses all day...

    It grinds my gears that my tax if funding it. I think it really needs to be looked at by our government. If you don't have stamps, then benefits should be severely restricted. That goes for every resident of our country, not just the benefit tourists. There is work out there for those who really want it. I seem to find it no problem.

    But it seems certain EU non Irish people seem to know every trick in the book to milk the tit dry.


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    #206
    Henlars67
    Registered Users Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭Henlars67


    brokenarms wrote: »
    I think its great that we have such a diverse community , but I hate the ones who come over work one year and abuse the our welfare system for the next 5+ years.

    My street seems to be full of eastern european families who don't work and I suspect are claiming the unmarried single mothers benefit. They just sit there on their arses all day...

    It grinds my gears that my tax if funding it. I think it really needs to be looked at by our government. If you don't have stamps, then benefits should be severely restricted. That goes for every resident of our country, not just the benefit tourists. There is work out there for those who really want it. I seem to find it no problem.

    But it seems certain EU non Irish people seem to know every trick in the book to milk the tit dry.

    Does somebody not have to be resident here for 2 years in order to claim welfare?


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    #207
    Clandestine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭Clandestine


    Nodin wrote: »
    You still haven't answered my point re the fact that many "native Britons" are in fact not white.
    I can't remember the exact question but yeah you are right I messed up my response before. I think my main point was that I'd prefer that people who have been born and raised in their home country, the UK, for all their lives (I'm talking older people) shouldn't have to put up with people who won't assimilate or respect the culture of the UK which is becoming more of an issue. it seems their worries are not being respected and people who have lived in areas for a long time are leaving, and densely populated immigrant areas are replacing them, bringing other issues:
    http://rt.com/news/uk-mass-immigration-segregation-873/


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    #208
    Leftist
    Registered Users Posts: 2,230 ✭✭✭Leftist


    brokenarms wrote: »

    But it seems certain EU non Irish people seem to know every trick in the book to milk the tit dry.

    yep. You'd never catch our lot doing that.

    they are divils for it. Come over here to purposefully work for one year and then live free for the rest of their lives.

    I heard there are tv advertisements in poland run by agencies that promise the poles that they can get away with this and how they can do it.

    I bet half of them can't even name the volunteers of 1916.

    Sons of erin rise and shake a potato for the spirit of micky collins, sure tisn't it a grand soft day for the likes of these sheebeen foreign devils to take our gold? for what died the sons of roisin?


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    #209
    brokenarms
    Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭brokenarms


    Henlars67 wrote: »
    Does somebody not have to be resident here for 2 years in order to claim welfare?

    Im not sure. I'm am sure however, if I go down the street and ask, they will be able to tell how long you have to be here and how to maximise every single benefit.


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    #210
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    brokenarms wrote: »
    I think its great that we have such a diverse community , but I hate the ones who come over work one year and abuse the our welfare system for the next 5+ years. .


    You have to work 18 months to get anything.
    brokenarms wrote: »
    My street seems to be full of eastern european families who don't work and I suspect are claiming the unmarried single mothers benefit. They just sit there on their arses all day....

    Yeah, yeah, yeah.
    brokenarms wrote: »
    It grinds my gears that my tax if funding it. I think it really needs to be looked at by our government. If you don't have stamps, then benefits should be severely restricted. ....

    They are.

    .
    brokenarms wrote: »
    But it seems certain EU non Irish people seem to know every trick in the book to milk the tit dry.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah


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    #211
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Leftist wrote: »

    I bet half of them can't even name the volunteers of 1916.

    Ahh feck that. Put them out!!!!!!!!!!


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