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Does racism automatically make someone a bad person?

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    #92
    tritium
    Registered Users Posts: 7,437 ✭✭✭tritium


    Leftist wrote: »
    No it isn't



    and no it doesn't.

    I would be absolutely perplexed if I met someone who was anti-racism but didn't mind violent domestic abuse. A very unusual combination.

    That may well depend on who the victim is. The efforts to suppress reporting of and play down the extent of female on male domestic over the years is pretty impressive. I recall an episode of Vincent Browne a few years back where a senior figure in amnesty Ireland described this phenomena as being beneath their consideration.


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    #93
    Henlars67
    Registered Users Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭Henlars67


    wexandproud wrote: »
    when the subject of racism is brought up we all assume its about disslike of eastern europeans,africans, and other minorities. how many of the non racist people on here would like a family of travellers and all their trappings as neighbours

    A dislike of travellers isn't racism.

    Travellers aren't a different race. They are white Irish people, like the majority of the population


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    #94
    Leftist
    Registered Users Posts: 2,230 ✭✭✭Leftist


    tritium wrote: »

    Strangely enough this labeling thing is quite selective. For example if I say all blacks are potentially thieves I'm on very thin ice. On the other hand if someone postulates that all men are potential rapists/ paedophiles, there'll be maybe a minor bit of tut tutting but no real outrage.

    Can you not see the difference in those two remarks?

    Making both remarks can make you sound equally foolish, but the difference is perspective.

    There isn't a history of discrimination against men on a gender basis to any degree that there is history and culture of racism towards blacks.

    Even anti-male comments don't compare to anti-female comments. Only a child can't differentiate the meaning and weight behind the differences and offense it can cause.


    Think of the difference between the following (for example purpose)
    Get back in the kitchen you stupid bitch
    vs.
    Go and play some more computer games you awful pig

    Honky vs. n****r

    You know there's a difference.


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    #95
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,001 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Henlars67 wrote: »
    A dislike of travellers isn't racism.

    Travellers aren't a different race. They are white Irish people, like the majority of the population

    They are a different ethnic minority therefore it is.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #96
    Henlars67
    Registered Users Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭Henlars67


    mango salsa wrote: »
    They are a different ethnic minority therefore it is.

    They are white Irish people.

    I'm a white Irish person who isn't a catholic, am I an ethnic minority?


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    #97
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    There was no real ethnic difference between the Tutsis and the Hutus, and they got along most of the time.
    But one day the Hutus killed about a million Tutsis.
    Racist crime?


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    #98
    tritium
    Registered Users Posts: 7,437 ✭✭✭tritium


    Leftist wrote: »
    Can you not see the difference in those two remarks?

    Making both remarks can make you sound equally foolish, but the difference is perspective.

    There isn't a history of discrimination against men on a gender basis to any degree that there is history and culture of racism towards blacks.

    Even anti-male comments don't compare to anti-female comments. Only a child can't differentiate the meaning and weight behind the differences and offense it can cause.


    Think of the difference between the following (for example purpose)
    Get back in the kitchen you stupid bitch
    vs.
    Go and play some more computer games you awful pig

    Honky vs. n****r

    You know there's a difference.

    With respect, that's just pretty wrapping that certain groups use to pretend that their prejudice is somehow more acceptable. You don't get to put a quantum of suffering on an individuals pain and it isn't somehow acceptable to play the "I can be a dick because your ancestors were pigs" card

    . BTW, your examples really fall quite a way short of tagging all men as rapists for example, which was my example


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    #99
    Leftist
    Registered Users Posts: 2,230 ✭✭✭Leftist


    tritium wrote: »
    With respect, that's just pretty wrapping that certain groups use to pretend that their prejudice is somehow more acceptable. You don't get to put a quantum of suffering on an individuals pain and it isn't somehow acceptable to play the "I can be a dick because your ancestries were pigs" card

    I wouldn't say it's more acceptable, just not as offensive.
    I don't think legislation should be made for one and not the other. Discrimination on an individual basis has to be treated equally.

    I was more referring to the broad society wide complaint that say, sexism towards males is not made into as big of a deal as racism towards blacks.

    That's where common sense comes in.


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    #100
    Wabbit Ears
    Registered Users Posts: 3,043 ✭✭✭Wabbit Ears


    I have never met someone who wasn't raciest in some way or other. I've met loads of people who claim to not be racist at all but that surface is very very easily scratched away.


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    #101
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,001 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Wabbit Ears wrote: »
    I have never met someone who wasn't raciest in some way or other. I've met loads of people who claim to not be racist at all but that surface is very very easily scratched away.

    I've met loads of people who are not anyway racist.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #102
    tritium
    Registered Users Posts: 7,437 ✭✭✭tritium


    Wabbit Ears wrote: »
    I have never met someone who wasn't raciest in some way or other. I've met loads of people who claim to not be racist at all but that surface is very very easily scratched away.

    I think prejudiced would be a more accurate term in my experience here


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    #103
    tritium
    Registered Users Posts: 7,437 ✭✭✭tritium


    Wabbit Ears wrote: »
    I have never met someone who wasn't raciest in some way or other. I've met loads of people who claim to not be racist at all but that surface is very very easily scratched away.

    I think prejudiced would be a more accurate term in my experience here


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    #104
    raah!
    Registered Users Posts: 2,629 ✭✭✭raah!


    Feathers wrote: »
    Yep, agreed.



    Yes, but they're not great examples. If you don't curse purely because your parents told you not to, you're ignorant of the meaning of the word & how it will affect those around you. If you don't drink & drive because the government told you not to, your ignorant if the fact that alcohol can inhibit our ability to control a car.

    In both cases, you don't understand why you're taking that action which again, is the definiton of the word.
    You do understand why you are taking the action, because your parents or the government told you to. And there are easier examples. Saying "hurting people is bad because my parents told me it was", is ignorant, if you have received this from your parents. You miss the point if you go back steps, Because I can just declare the first point given to you by your parents or society as something about which you are ignorant.
    Nobody would judge someone for having an irrational fear, but banning all Irish people from the shop is treating them indiscriminately as one group, which presumably is done through ignorance or immorality.
    What presumably? I said she didn't want any of them because she was afraid of them all. She is indiscriminately afraid of them.
    If an eloquent, well dressed Irish man came into the shop, clearly not a drunk & she was still afraid, she would be acting ignorantly to assume that she is threatened because of his Irishness.
    This again contradicts the terms of the example. She has an irrational fear of irish people. It's not because she doesn't know not all irish people are drunkards, she is afraid of all irish people because many of them are drunkards.
    If she wasn't afraid but banned him anyway, shed be acting immorally.
    Again this contradicts the terms of the example. She is afraid of irish people.

    You can't say:

    "This is a bad example because 'description of different scenario' "
    I still can't see a third option that isn't simply condoning racism. Unless you're saying all the other nice things she does make up for being willfully racist?

    I did say a large amount of different things in my post in conjunction with that example. That she might do other nice things was one of them, but only a minor side point. And it's not possible remain discussing productively this without going deeper into the definitions of things like racism and what is good or bad, what constitutes ignorance, and the extent to which a person is responsible for their views.


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    #105
    Wabbit Ears
    Registered Users Posts: 3,043 ✭✭✭Wabbit Ears


    tritium wrote: »
    I think prejudiced would be a more accurate term in my experience here


    What some label prejudice an awful lot of people are nowadays calling racism, just socially acceptable racism within your own peer group?


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    #106
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    There is no "acceptable" form of racism. Casual, "jokey" and so forth. We should not defend racists, rather try and educate. And that goes towards anyone of any race/religion. I often end up arguing with my mate (she's black Zimbabwean) who complains that "all Nigerians are the same", "you can tell gays by the way they dress" :rolleyes: etc.

    Everyone is capable of it - but I believe everyone can move beyond such pettiness, too.


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    #107
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,001 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    old hippy wrote: »
    There is no "acceptable" form of racism.
    Agreed but sometimes you have to just agree to disagree and just not talk about the issues with family or close friends.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #108
    tiger55
    Registered Users Posts: 512 ✭✭✭tiger55


    cometogether wrote: »
    Discrimination against someone based on race, ethnicity, nationality, creed etc. Is the definition not fairly straightforward?:confused:

    Is this racism?

    A MOB went on a wave of random race violence on Temple Bar, which left five Dubliners with horrific injuries.



    One man -- a Dublin DJ -- was almost killed in the attack as he suffered serious head injuries when he was set upon by the gang.


    The level of violence has shocked gardai and the many witnesses to the race hate orgy -- believed to be the first of its kind in the city.


    One member of the African gang was arrested today in pre-dawn raids by detectives across the capital.


    Five Dubliners, all aged in their 20s, were left with horrific injuries in the October 2010 attacks, which have only come to light now.


    http://www.herald.ie/news/race-hate-gang-in-temple-bar-orgy-of-violence-27984181.html


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    #109
    tiger55
    Registered Users Posts: 512 ✭✭✭tiger55


    So immigrants are allowed to flood into Ireland and its racism to object to this?:confused:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce31wo8wKzI


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    #110
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    mango salsa wrote: »
    Agreed but sometimes you have to just agree to disagree and just not talk about the issues with family or close friends.

    Bit difficult with my family and friends. We're United Colors of Benneton, know what I mean :D


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    #111
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,001 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    tiger55 wrote: »
    So immigrants are allowed to flood into Ireland and its racism to object to this?:confused:

    Yes

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #112
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    tiger55 wrote: »
    So immigrants are allowed to flood into Ireland and its racism to object to this?:confused:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce31wo8wKzI

    What flood? Get a grip of yourself, man.


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    #113
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,001 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    old hippy wrote: »
    Bit difficult with my family and friends. We're United Colors of Benneton, know what I mean :D

    Oh I know but when you come from a monocultural background it's much more difficult.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #114
    Hande hoche!
    Registered Users Posts: 7,519 ✭✭✭Hande hoche!


    tiger55 wrote: »
    So immigrants are allowed to flood into Ireland and its racism to object to this?:confused:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce31wo8wKzI

    I would say more xenophobic. If you were fine with white immigrants but not those of other races, it would racist.


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    #115
    humanji
    Registered Users Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    tiger55 wrote: »
    Is this racism?

    A MOB went on a wave of random race violence on Temple Bar, which left five Dubliners with horrific injuries.



    One man -- a Dublin DJ -- was almost killed in the attack as he suffered serious head injuries when he was set upon by the gang.


    The level of violence has shocked gardai and the many witnesses to the race hate orgy -- believed to be the first of its kind in the city.


    One member of the African gang was arrested today in pre-dawn raids by detectives across the capital.


    Five Dubliners, all aged in their 20s, were left with horrific injuries in the October 2010 attacks, which have only come to light now.


    http://www.herald.ie/news/race-hate-gang-in-temple-bar-orgy-of-violence-27984181.html
    If the reason teh gang attacked people was because of their race, then it's racist. I'd have thought that was pretty obvious.
    tiger55 wrote: »
    So immigrants are allowed to flood into Ireland and its racism to object to this?:confused:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce31wo8wKzI

    The video is meaningless. As for objecting to immigrants, if you're objecting solely on their race, then you're being racist.


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    #116
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    mango salsa wrote: »
    Oh I know but when you come from a monocultural background it's much more difficult.

    All the more reason to challenge those ingrained views, IMHO


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    #117
    Leftist
    Registered Users Posts: 2,230 ✭✭✭Leftist


    tiger55 wrote: »
    So immigrants are allowed to flood into Ireland and its racism to object to this?:confused:

    is this even in response to any other comment here or just a declaration?


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    #118
    Clandestine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭Clandestine


    tiger55 wrote: »
    So immigrants are allowed to flood into Ireland and its racism to object to this?:confused:
    No it isn't


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    #119
    Stereomaniac
    Registered Users Posts: 6,166 ✭✭✭Stereomaniac


    For sure it is, especially because people can remember Ireland just being all white, largely Catholic.


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    #120
    Clandestine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭Clandestine


    old hippy wrote: »
    What flood? Get a grip of yourself, man.
    What flood you say? Ireland has had it pretty easy so far, but Sweden and the UK have not. Crime rates and rape rates have shot up in those countries as a result of immigrants (they commit crime at a much higher rate), and whites are becoming a minority too. No joke.


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    #121
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,001 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    old hippy wrote: »
    All the more reason to challenge those ingrained views, IMHO

    Challenging - yeah fine but when the views are so ingrained they are unchangable sometimes you have to give up

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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