High Court moron forces ISP's to block Torrent sites

Agent Smith · 19-06-2013 4:11pm

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

We should all donate, to fund a case to block google on the same grounds

Jericho. wrote: »

The next round of website blocking is already underway.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/record-companies-to-target-20-more-pirate-sites-after-court-ruling-29341201.html

Looks like we should get google blocked so....

runawaybishop · 19-06-2013 4:12pm

CruelCoin wrote: »

Yes, it is. Yes, all they store are torrent files, and they hold no copyrighted material themselves, this i know. I also know however that i can use these torrent files to get a shiny new video for free, zip, nada.

If i hold phones in my home, used as a link between junkies and drug dealers, but hold no drugs in my house, i'm still liable for facilitation!

The vast majority of traffic through tbp isn't copyrighted material - its porn. Apart from that tpb is an indexing service with no illegal material held on their servers. The site was shut down by vested interests to the detriment of freedom, the potential knock on effects of this initial step are quite severe.

CruelCoin wrote: »

I have no issue with freedom of information, provided the information being distributed is indeed free.
You can't rip people off and hide behind the "help help i'm being oppressed!" argument.
If you should have paid for something and you didn't, its theft, plain and simple.

The pirate bay isn't a community.

They have discussion boards but this is limited to posts of "Cam vid, little shaky, A8/10, V5/10, thanks uploader!" This type of discussion can hardly be called a community, as discussion never goes any further than that.

Websites are indeed responsible for what their users post. Boards.ie is a prime example of this, if anyone posts illegal crap, they have a responsibility to take it down, else they are liable. This is fact, and enforced by the moderation team.

I don't disagree with the majority of this, but i would note that "ripping people off" is exactly why these sites are popular in the first place. You only have to look at the popularity of legal, reasonably priced alternatives to see this. The internet and availability of these movies/games etc has fundamentally changed how we view copyright. The industry needs to adapt to this rather than try to legislate draconian restrictions that 1) do not address the root cause, 2) do not affect the people providing the material and 3) are woefully ineffective.

As already mentioned in this thread, the EU are discussing legislation encouraging net neutrality and a ban on blocking sites.

Outkast_IRE · 19-06-2013 4:14pm

Agent Smith wrote: »

Looks like we should get google blocked so....

Yes, it should be easy to prove in court, now that the IRMA are nice enough to of set a precedent. Google may fight it though

garv123 · 19-06-2013 4:15pm

http://omg.wthax.org/5HcbCe.png

Dont know has this been posted before but it goes to show we should be ashamed of ourselves for ruining the music industry and now famous singers are struggling because of it.

AntiRip · 19-06-2013 4:16pm

Agent Smith wrote: »

Looks like we should get google blocked so....

All search engines should be blocked. All you have to do is type in “filetype:torrent” (without quotations), then add a space and type in whatever torrent you happen to be looking for.

Obviously typing this sort of stuff should be illegal.

Jericho. · 19-06-2013 4:29pm

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Yes, it should be easy to prove in court, now that the IRMA are nice enough to of set a precedent. Google may fight it though

Google have no right to defend it though? Isn't between the party seeking to have the site blocked and the ISP(s)?

Outkast_IRE · 19-06-2013 4:41pm

Jericho. wrote: »

Google have no right to defend it though? Isn't between the party seeking to have the site blocked and the ISP(s)?

Im not sure to be honest. All I know is that if we started a legal fund to block google and similar search engines I would donate, mostly in the hope it would show up how futile blocking individual sites is etc etc.

Kickstarter to block all search engines in Ireland anyone ?

CruelCoin · 19-06-2013 4:59pm

runawaybishop wrote: »

The vast majority of traffic through tbp isn't copyrighted material - its porn. Apart from that tpb is an indexing service with no illegal material held on their servers. The site was shut down by vested interests to the detriment of freedom, the potential knock on effects of this initial step are quite severe.

I don't disagree with the majority of this, but i would note that "ripping people off" is exactly why these sites are popular in the first place. You only have to look at the popularity of legal, reasonably priced alternatives to see this. The internet and availability of these movies/games etc has fundamentally changed how we view copyright. The industry needs to adapt to this rather than try to legislate draconian restrictions that 1) do not address the root cause, 2) do not affect the people providing the material and 3) are woefully ineffective.

As already mentioned in this thread, the EU are discussing legislation encouraging net neutrality and a ban on blocking sites.

I used to use that site, and isohunt in particular recently, so i don't object to their use.

What I object to is when people claim they're doing nothing wrong when they plainly are. Be honest about what you do at the very least.

I'm not sure how you expect them to evolve to meet the current market expectations.
In torrent sites you have available pretty much everything for free, zip, nada. There is really nothing you could evolve to that can compete with that, so with that in mind if they can't compete, they must try to shut it down.

Add to this the technical limitations of any online store attempting to stock low-res, high-res versions, subtitled, in what language etc.
Every quality, for anything, in any subtitle and for any language is available for free on the torrent sites. This is not a market you can compete in without some form of subsidy/protection. In price and customisation the torent sites win hands down.

A noble idea, but a free market approach will not work, and trying to ban torrent sites is really the only option, when competing isn't one.

listermint · 19-06-2013 5:04pm

CruelCoin wrote: »

I used to use that site, and isohunt in particular recently, so i don't object to their use.

What I object to is when people claim they're doing nothing wrong when they plainly are. Be honest about what you do at the very least.

I'm not sure how you expect them to evolve to meet the current market expectations.
In torrent sites you have available pretty much everything for free, zip, nada. There is really nothing you could evolve to that can compete with that, so with that in mind if they can't compete, they must try to shut it down.

Add to this the technical limitations of any online store attempting to stock low-res, high-res versions, subtitled, in what language etc.
Every quality, for anything, in any subtitle and for any language is available for free on the torrent sites. This is not a market you can compete in without some form of subsidy/protection. In price and customisation the torent sites win hands down.

A noble idea, but a free market approach will not work, and trying to ban torrent sites is really the only option, when competing isn't one.

I completely disagree.

Its not a noble idea as demonstrated by the likes of netflix.

just because you dont use these services doesnt mean its not popular.

end of the road · 19-06-2013 7:30pm

Unforgettable _ Fire wrote: »

IRMA has never heard of a proxy server, have they?

probably not, or else they do but are just deluded that blocking sites will make their problems go away, themselves and the big record companies will never admit defeat no matter the cost, no surrender they cry

Jack Daniels I · 19-06-2013 8:50pm

all this talk of Sean Sherlock and illegal downloading led me to 'acquire' the entire BBC series of Sherlock whilst reading this thread.

Ta ta for now

CrazyRabbit · 19-06-2013 9:22pm

Unforgettable _ Fire wrote: »

IRMA has never heard of a proxy server, have they?

Nope, but neither has a large percentage of 'regular' internet users.

Being able to bypass is beside the point though. Having some company with a prehistoric business model dictating what (legal) sites you and I can visit is the point. This new law is discriminatory against law-abiding internet users & sites.

CrazyRabbit · 19-06-2013 9:30pm

listermint wrote: »

I completely disagree.

Its not a noble idea as demonstrated by the likes of netflix.

just because you dont use these services doesnt mean its not popular.

Agreed. And for gaming, you have Steam. That service has encouraged me to buy over 100 games so far. Actually, I'm addicted to the Steam Sales.

Given the choice between two services that offer easy access to moves/songs that can be played on any device I own, I'd go with the one that is higher quality/low price over the one that offers lower quality and is free.

HurtLocker · 19-06-2013 9:44pm

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Agreed. And for gaming, you have Steam. That service has encouraged me to buy over 100 games so far. Actually, I'm addicted to the Steam Sales.

Given the choice between two services that offer easy access to moves/songs that can be played on any device I own, I'd go with the one that is higher quality/low price over the one that offers lower quality and is free.

Suppose the problem is we have access to top quality music for free from literally thousands of sites. I've never used the pirate bay for music and in my years I've probably actually bought 2 songs when I was on the go . I've downloaded at least a thousand songs. Thats nearly €1000 worth. I paid a grand total of €2. I downloaded 15 yesterday. €15! No thank you.

This block is futile and a waste of time. If it comes down to it Ill use the TOR network. The internet will have to be regulated and censored to the hilt before that stops working. Or maybe just maybe they'll realize they are overcharging. If they dont they wont see any money from me in downloads ever.

Cienciano · 19-06-2013 10:01pm

Lightbulb Sun wrote: »

As has been said before, it's the precedent of blocking the largest torrent site. It puts pressure on the others then. Netflix and Spotify did not cause HMV to close, rather their losses because of piracy. This had been going on for years.

No, HMV didn't close because of piracy. Before HMV closed, I went in to take a look. Shelves of CD's and DVD's. I used to buy lots of them, but now I don't even have a CD player in the house or car, and the only DVD player I have is the PS3. Not because of illegal downloading, it's because the medium is changing. Streaming and downloading is what's popular now.

Allyall · 19-06-2013 10:26pm

Cienciano wrote: »

No, HMV didn't close because of piracy. Before HMV closed, I went in to take a look. Shelves of CD's and DVD's. I used to buy lots of them, but now I don't even have a CD player in the house or car, and the only DVD player I have is the PS3. Not because of illegal downloading, it's because the medium is changing. Streaming and downloading is what's popular now.

True Dat.

Also the reason for Extravison. I'll never understand why Extravision didn't move with the times 6/7 years ago or longer (I have no concept of time).
They could've avoided HMV's irish fate.
By selling media streamers hooked up to an Extravision hub, or launching an online movie hire etc..
Anything.
I never got it.

Cienciano · 19-06-2013 11:25pm

Allyall wrote: »

True Dat.

Also the reason for Extravison. I'll never understand why Extravision didn't move with the times 6/7 years ago or longer (I have no concept of time).
They could've avoided HMV's irish fate.
By selling media streamers hooked up to an Extravision hub, or launching an online movie hire etc..
Anything.
I never got it.

2 good southpark episodes to watch.
One where Randy buys a Blockbuster video rental shop thinking it's going to be a goldmine. And the one about illegal downloading.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Nightmare_on_Face_Time
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Rock_Hard

El Inho · 20-06-2013 12:18am

Just got kinda passionate talking to someone about this. You know when you are kinda explaining your opinion and the other person doesn't really care about the argument in general? Anyway, moving on...

It's terrible that this is coming into force, and is ridiculous. But there is something more ridiculous.

This is going to cost the ISPs an absolute ton of money...much like it would have cost the Dutch ISPs. And thats terrible of course as this will be reflected on the public.

But what's worse is, the work around already exists for the block...so it is fair to assume that anyone capable of torrenting from TPB is capable of understanding a proxy. Even if not they are able to type in a google search and will get links which are more or less TPB. So all this money will be spent...for what?

You can argue all day about legalities and moralities, but at the end of the day this whole thing is simply stupid.

NothingMan · 20-06-2013 9:43am

I agree that they're slow or sometimes outright refusal to get with the times and join the streaming media game is a major factor here. Since I signed up to Netflix I have barely used torrents at all. Although I am accessing US netflix so I may not be completely above board.

The simple fact is if there was a streaming service priced like Netflix, where content was available globally and not by territory and there was a reasonable pay per view for new releases (say €2 a pop) I would probably never use torrents again for movies.

Music is a little more difficult. Half my music is ripped or legally downlaoded, the other half not. In this instance a streaming service like Spotify wouldn't really suit me as I don't want to be constantly online draining my battery before I even get to work. I know you can make offline playlists but I don't put that much forethought into what I may want to listen to. But a lot of people are using spotify for exactly that purpose too.

The money is still there to be made. Maybe not the insane profits they made when selling a CD for €20 + but still a good business model can be built. I think the masses have proven we will pay a reasonable price for a decent service but the labels want to charge a premium price for a worse service and people have voted with their wallets for once and the people will win in the end.

runawaybishop · 20-06-2013 9:54am

CruelCoin wrote: »

I used to use that site, and isohunt in particular recently, so i don't object to their use.

What I object to is when people claim they're doing nothing wrong when they plainly are. Be honest about what you do at the very least.

I'm not sure how you expect them to evolve to meet the current market expectations.
In torrent sites you have available pretty much everything for free, zip, nada. There is really nothing you could evolve to that can compete with that, so with that in mind if they can't compete, they must try to shut it down.

Add to this the technical limitations of any online store attempting to stock low-res, high-res versions, subtitled, in what language etc.
Every quality, for anything, in any subtitle and for any language is available for free on the torrent sites. This is not a market you can compete in without some form of subsidy/protection. In price and customisation the torent sites win hands down.

A noble idea, but a free market approach will not work, and trying to ban torrent sites is really the only option, when competing isn't one.

Competing is clearly an option, look at spotify, netflix, steam etc. Hell, look at youtube. Rolling in cash and subscribers and charging a nominal fee in many cases, or none at all.

"What I object to is when people claim they're doing nothing wrong when they plainly are. Be honest about what you do at the very least."

There's truth there, but that doesn't really matter. People have decided they will not pay the prices the industry want them to pay via the media they have made available. Its not feasible to shut down all the torrent sites. Even if it was you'd still have direct sharing or numerous other methods to share digital media. The "war" on pirating was lost long ago.

It really doesn't matter how illegal pirating is, a lot of people have decided they find it acceptable and its not possible to stop it now. The sensible approach is to make a legal alternate and monetise it, not to further alienate an already disgruntled user base. The biggest mistake the industry made was not adopting the approach of napster et al years ago.

AntiRip · 20-06-2013 10:04am

NothingMan wrote: »

I agree that they're slow or sometimes outright refusal to get with the times and join the streaming media game is a major factor here. Since I signed up to Netflix I have barely used torrents at all. Although I am accessing US netflix so I may not be completely above board.

The simple fact is if there was a streaming service priced like Netflix, where content was available globally and not by territory and there was a reasonable pay per view for new releases (say €2 a pop) I would probably never use torrents again for movies.

If Netflix was e20 a month with all up to date content I probably wouldn't download again. But they just want to screw people over and over again from the cinema, to pay per view, to dvd release, to sky subscription fees to maximise their profits. It needs to change for the future as high speed internet has changed things forever. They need to have a proper subscription service, up to date and the same worldwide. Not sure if this is possible though because of the broadcasters.

Capt'n Midnight · 20-06-2013 1:53pm

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I think people are forgetting that record companies take a huge punt on different bands. For every band that is signed by a record company and successful, there may be tens that aren't. There are a lot of upfront costs with promotion that are not recoupable if the band fails.

Its the same reason why prescription drugs under patent are so expensive, the few successful ones have to pay for the many many more that were duds in addition to generating a profit.

The real reason prescription drugs are so expensive is that big pharma spends several times more on advertising than on R&D.

It's nearly at the point where I wouldn't be surprised if the amount they spend in the US on types of advertising that is banned in the EU exceeds the R&D budget.

Also and this is the really galling bit, most of the funding comes from the government in terms of healthcare spending, university training , the rest is made up of private health care and there is probably some consumer spending there too.

And we all know that drug companies are more likely to invest in profitable drugs...

And don't get me started on drugs invented to get a slice of the pie, regardless of how the compare with what's already on the market, especially when patents expire.

The original purpose of Patents was to share trade secrets in exchange for allowing a chance to recoup costs.

Which is totally different to

The original purpose of Copyright was to protect the artist from publishers for 14 years. We now live in a world where with rare exceptions the publisher has control of the rights for 70 after the artist has died.

Even a casual investigation of the antics of record companies shows that very few artists receive fair reward so please don't appeal on behalf of the companies until they deserve it.

The entertainment industry has very sleazy accountants.
David Prowse played Darth Vader in The Empire Strikes Back.
The film made $577m on a budget of $18m. His share of the profit is 0 because the film hasn't made a profit yet.

CruelCoin · 20-06-2013 3:33pm

You know, i don't know why the hub-bub over torrents closing when there are a plethora of youtube to mp3 converter websites around the place.

You get to preview on youtube what you're going to convert, so no more crappy/spoof torrents and they're largely under the radar so little risk of censure from your isp.

20-06-2013 3:40pm

what pisses me off the most is, the music industry is not suffering despite what EMI are saying. Why is the music industry getting special treatment, laws changed over other industries that really need help.

Capt'n Midnight · 20-06-2013 4:45pm

Last Tuesday
https://www.facebook.com/ThePirateBayWarMachine

Yup, sorry we're down. Something broken broke.
But who needs TPB when you can watch quality movies off youtube?
Jean Claude Van Damme No Retreat, No Surrender FULL MOVIE

When will Netflix offer us the same media they are offering in the US ?

There are extensions for Firefox and Chrome that allow users of legit web stream services to access content when not at their usual location. It would be interesting to know how many people have moved from torrents because of them.

Lightbulb Sun · 20-06-2013 4:57pm

CruelCoin wrote: »

You know, i don't know why the hub-bub over torrents closing when there are a plethora of youtube to mp3 converter websites around the place.

You get to preview on youtube what you're going to convert, so no more crappy/spoof torrents and they're largely under the radar so little risk of censure from your isp.

What you're getting there is a compressed version of an already compressed mp3 file if you use those sites. The sound quality is reduced when it's uploaded to YouTube.

skydish79 · 20-06-2013 5:37pm

Is it just Ireland that the company's have targeted first or have they got similar cases across Europe?

CruelCoin · 21-06-2013 11:11am

Lightbulb Sun wrote: »

What you're getting there is a compressed version of an already compressed mp3 file if you use those sites. The sound quality is reduced when it's uploaded to YouTube.

That i hadn't known, thanks for the heads up.

yoyo · 21-06-2013 11:42am

skydish79 wrote: »

Is it just Ireland that the company's have targeted first or have they got similar cases across Europe?

Other EU countries (UK for one) have implemented similar blocking, and as expected made f**k all difference to what was intended. In ways I'd trust the UK courts to govern something like this more as their laws regarding IT are at least "modern". I would imagine many sitting judges here not having much knowledge of the internet or computers which makes these rulings even more dangerous and open to abuse

Nick

runawaybishop · 21-06-2013 11:49am

yoyo wrote: »

Other EU countries (UK for one) have implemented similar blocking, and as expected made f**k all difference to what was intended. In ways I'd trust the UK courts to govern something like this more as their laws regarding IT are at least "modern". I would imagine many sitting judges here not having much knowledge of the internet or computers which makes these rulings even more dangerous and open to abuse

Nick

XS4ALL, a Dutch ISP, reported an increase in torrent traffic after they blocked the pirate bay due to increased exposure in the media. In the UK after the ban was announced tpb experienced a surge of 12 million views, which they took advantage of by running campaigns educating users on how to circumvent the block.

High Court moron forces ISP's to block Torrent sites

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