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Could the train once again be the King of the Dublin/Cork route?

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    #272
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    and power stitaons produce what? angel delight?


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    #273
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    This country has a wind energy target of 40% of total energy produced - while not earth shattering it's certainly good news. Currently we produce around 15%, so a start has been made. So that's less 'angel's delight' out of the power stations' stacks.

    Theoretically then we will reach a stage where rail could be powered 40% by wind including InterCity if the investment was made to electrify. Dart and Luas are already equipped. So in effect are our 'Nissan Leafs' and other makes of electric cars.


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    #274
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    steamengine wrote: »
    Theoretically then we will reach a stage where rail could be powered 40% by wind including InterCity if the investment was made to electrify. Dart and Luas are already equipped. So in effect are our 'Nissan Leafs' and other makes of electric cars.

    Powered 40% by wind 60% of the time, and by extremely inefficient quick-spool gas turbines the other 40%. And unlike a Leaf where people make claims about them being able to only charge when the power's green/cheap (and then the same person on here who frequently champions that then admits they pre-heat the car every morning in the morning peak of power consumption, oops); trains need instantenous power.

    Nuclear...


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    #275
    Rocky Bay
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 276 ✭✭Rocky Bay


    I would ask all to remember that wind power comes at a price......a large amount of dead birds.


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    #276
    Cool Mo D
    Registered Users Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Cool Mo D


    Rocky Bay wrote: »
    I would ask all to remember that wind power comes at a price......a large amount of dead birds.

    Wind turbines kill some birds, but with any sort of planning the danger is negligible.

    Newer wind turbines are also more efficient and safer for birds.

    On the scale of serious threats to bird populations, and there are many, wind turbines do not even register.


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    #277
    Sesshoumaru
    Registered Users Posts: 2,127 ✭✭✭Sesshoumaru


    MYOB wrote: »
    Powered 40% by wind 60% of the time, and by extremely inefficient quick-spool gas turbines the other 40%. And unlike a Leaf where people make claims about them being able to only charge when the power's green/cheap (and then the same person on here who frequently champions that then admits they pre-heat the car every morning in the morning peak of power consumption, oops); trains need instantenous power.

    Nuclear...

    Who says they preheat their car every single morning? I find your claim unbelievable since even in Ireland, we don't have freezing cold weather all the time.


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    #278
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    They get better rates for busing passengers.

    They're moving to T2 lock stock and barrel so it appears that they're willing to suck up the higher rates for not bussing.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056933871

    This makes the transfer time for feeder flights a fraction of what it was.
    Sesshoumaru wrote: »
    Who says they preheat their car every single morning? I find your claim unbelievable since even in Ireland, we don't have freezing cold weather all the time.

    There's significantly less grid demand on warmer mornings. I notice you haven't tried to tackle that, seeing as it makes the "my car uses excess power" argument more than a little bit damaged


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    #279
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,674 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    MYOB wrote: »
    They're moving to T2 lock stock and barrel so it appears that they're willing to suck up the higher rates for not bussing.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056933871

    This makes the transfer time for feeder flights a fraction of what it was.



    There's significantly less grid demand on warmer mornings. I notice you haven't tried to tackle that, seeing as it makes the "my car uses excess power" argument more than a little bit damaged

    Moving to T2 dosn't mean bus transfers will be stopped, it will save the bus from T1 to T2 for US connecting passegners. There is no stands at T2 for ATR aircraft...this will save staffing costs and the walk for some US passengers.


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    #280
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Moving to T2 dosn't mean bus transfers will be stopped, it will save the bus from T1 to T2 for US connecting passegners. There is no stands at T2 for ATR aircraft...

    There are. Look at the stoplines


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    #281
    Sesshoumaru
    Registered Users Posts: 2,127 ✭✭✭Sesshoumaru


    MYOB wrote: »
    There's significantly less grid demand on warmer mornings. I notice you haven't tried to tackle that, seeing as it makes the "my car uses excess power" argument more than a little bit damaged

    You made a claim and I called you out on that claim. You're not backing up your claim, avoiding it completely. So I can take it your claim that someone preheats their Nissan Leaf every single day as bogus. That's all I wanted, thanks :)


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    #282
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,674 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    MYOB wrote: »
    There are. Look at the stoplines

    They will be check in, security and boarding the buses at T2 not aircraft just like the set up in T1.


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    #283
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Sesshoumaru wrote: »
    You made a claim and I called you out on that claim. You're not backing up your claim, avoiding it completely. So I can take it your claim that someone preheats their Nissan Leaf every single day as bogus. That's all I wanted, thanks :)

    I said every peak day.


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    #284
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    They will be check in, security and boarding the buses at T2 not aircraft just like the set up in T1.

    I cant see buses crossing the entire infield and cutting across all piers. Reduced rates are for using the noncontact gates, not for bussing to main gates


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    #285
    Sesshoumaru
    Registered Users Posts: 2,127 ✭✭✭Sesshoumaru


    MYOB wrote: »
    I said every peak day.
    MYOB wrote: »
    Powered 40% by wind 60% of the time, and by extremely inefficient quick-spool gas turbines the other 40%. And unlike a Leaf where people make claims about them being able to only charge when the power's green/cheap (and then the same person on here who frequently champions that then admits they pre-heat the car every morning in the morning peak of power consumption, oops); trains need instantenous power.

    Nuclear...

    Bold added by myself to highlight relevant part.


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    #286
    Polar101
    Registered Users Posts: 3,774 ✭✭✭Polar101


    markpb wrote: »
    Dublin airport is a strange beast - there are time when security is inexplicably slow but most of the time, the security queues at T2 are about five minutes.

    I did Dublin-Cork-Dublin once with Ryanair (€6 return - nothing has beaten that fare yet), the funny thing about that was that you could actually skip the security queues at Dublin airport, as domestic flights have (or had in 2009) a different gate for security checks. It still took well over two hours to get from where I live in Dublin to Cork City Centre.

    ---

    But obviously air travel isn't the future of the Dublin-Cork route, at least not the near future. While I'd prefer to travel by train - I don't drive - if i had to travel the route often, I'd just buy a car.


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    #287
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Sesshoumaru wrote: »
    Bold added by myself to highlight relevant part.

    Yes, and?


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    #288
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,674 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    MYOB wrote: »
    I cant see buses crossing the entire infield and cutting across all piers.

    They may get to use some of the cargo area and there are some stands opposite T2 stands with ATR marks so if they are used I don't think they will allow pax to walk. Will see if some EI staff know more lather.


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    #289
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,312 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Electric cars are a gimmick which allows some people to drive single occupancy Tesla Roadsters 2 hours a day with expensive and tricky to mine rare earths inside and imagine they are saving the planet while the SIMI are laughing all the way to the bank.

    Electrification of intercity rail or coach involves stringing a lot of wire which in urban areas would be carrying 10 if not 100 times more passengers. If you want to displace diesel while carrying people, LUAS from Line A to Lucan (i.e. LUAS F1), DART to Maynooth, faster DARTs beyond Malahide, fewer buses to "An Lar" and more shuttles to the electric modes off peak, *maybe* some electric articulated bus BRTs in Cork or other cities but I'm doubtful, is where it's at.


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    #290
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,573 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I'm afraid that I can't see the ATRs suddenly using the T2 stands all day either MYOB.

    Perhaps at certain quieter times yes, but as it is there is insufficient space for the entire Aer Lingus Dublin based fleet to operate from T2 overnight, with up to half a dozen aircraft departing from gates 300 (old pier B) in T1.

    The primary benefit will be all handling being done in T2, but I suspect that bussing will remain a reality for many of the flights.


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    #291
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    dowlingm wrote: »
    Electric cars are a gimmick which allows some people to drive single occupancy Tesla Roadsters 2 hours a day with expensive and tricky to mine rare earths inside and imagine they are saving the planet while the SIMI are laughing all the way to the bank.

    nope, this is just wrong, the roadster is now out of production Tesla are now building the model S, look it up on youtube, it not a gimmick they will sell 20K of them this year and even more next year, the future of the car is battery electric there is now little doubt of that

    its only a matter of time before we see intercity electric buses, there will be electric buses on the cork to dublin route long before irish rail have electric trains

    BTW electric motors can be built without using rare earths, as far as I know Tesla don't use rare earths in their motors


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    #292
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    The power source for electric trains can be anything, and has the potential to not include fossil fuels at all.

    Opinion is split, but wind power is a whole other debate.


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    #293
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    nokia69 wrote: »
    nope, this is just wrong, the roadster is now out of production Tesla are now building the model S, look it up on youtube, it not a gimmick they will sell 20K of them this year and even more next year, the future of the car is battery electric there is now little doubt of that

    its only a matter of time before we see intercity electric buses, there will be electric buses on the cork to dublin route long before irish rail have electric trains

    BTW electric motors can be built without using rare earths, as far as I know Tesla don't use rare earths in their motors

    Getting OT again here, but rare earth magnets are typically neodymium, which is not rare, so the name is misleading.

    Re Tesla, if you watch Revenge of the Electric Car (it's on Netflix) which is largely pro the electric car, Tesla is in chronic debt, and I wouldn't be so sure they'll be here in 5 years time. That's not to say the electric car won't tho.


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    #294
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,532 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Re Tesla, if you watch Revenge of the Electric Car (it's on Netflix) which is largely pro the electric car, Tesla is in chronic debt, and I wouldn't be so sure they'll be here in 5 years time. That's not to say the electric car won't tho.

    Things have changed radically for Tesla since that documentary was made. Their new car the Tesla S has been a massive success and is selling very well. Tesla is expected to make a profit this quarter and has agreed to repay it's federal loan early (they save on interest payments by doing this).

    Things are look very bright for Tesla now.


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    #295
    dh0011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 890 ✭✭✭dh0011


    i used take the train a lot but these days i find it cheaper to drive


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    #296
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    nokia69 wrote: »
    nope, this is just wrong, the roadster is now out of production Tesla are now building the model S, look it up on youtube, it not a gimmick they will sell 20K of them this year and even more next year, the future of the car is battery electric there is now little doubt of that

    its only a matter of time before we see intercity electric buses, there will be electric buses on the cork to dublin route long before irish rail have electric trains

    BTW electric motors can be built without using rare earths, as far as I know Tesla don't use rare earths in their motors

    That is a curious prediction - not one country as yet runs intercity electric buses, yet many run intercity electric trains. What extra special insight do we have that the rest of the world has missed ?


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    #297
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    steamengine wrote: »
    That is a curious prediction - not one country as yet runs intercity electric buses, yet many run intercity electric trains. What extra special insight do we have that the rest of the world has missed ?

    no special insight really, but I can seen the trends over the next few years, the price of diesel will continue to rise while the price of batteries will continue to fall, there will then be a cross over point where its obvious to all that a battery powered bus is cheaper to run than a diesel bus, I think this will happen in less than 10 years others will say it will take longer but it will happen

    for us to have intercity electric trains in Ireland we would need a massive increase in spending to upgrade the lines and on new trains, both of which will not happen soon, when the property/credit bubble burst the first thing the government cut was capital expenditure, so it looks to me that we will have electric buses running between dublin and cork long before we have electric trains, a pity really I much prefer the train over the bus



    who knows maybe we will see something like this on the roads in the future


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    #298
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    not in the next hundred years will you see intercity battery electric buses....town buses yes, where slow speeds are the order, but even an elemental stab at physics tells me that the power needed to power a bus at 100km/h for 2 hours would be outstripped by the physical weight of the batterys needed to store that much power. Eevn given possible technology improvements, the number of axles you'd need to carry the weight and the sheer phyiscal size of the battery's also will mitigate against this. EXTERNAL power source is the way to go but if you are going to wire up the roads, it's probably just as economic to wire the railway


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    #299
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    corktina wrote: »
    not in the next hundred years will you see intercity battery electric buses....town buses yes, where slow speeds are the order, but even an elemental stab at physics tells me that the power needed to power a bus at 100km/h for 2 hours would be outstripped by the physical weight of the batterys needed to store that much power. Eevn given possible technology improvements, the number of axles you'd need to carry the weight and the sheer phyiscal size of the battery's also will mitigate against this. EXTERNAL power source is the way to go but if you are going to wire up the roads, it's probably just as economic to wire the railway

    100Kmh for 2 hours would be easy with todays batteries no need to wait 100 years

    have you heard of lithium ion batteries ? they are getting better every year

    you seem to think that we only have lead acid batteries

    but you are right external power may also be used, the germans are working on powering lorries and trucks on motorways using overhead wires, buses could use the same system


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    #300
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    The Germans already have electric trains, so electrified roads if it ever came about would augment their rail system. It seems once again, judging from some of the posts on this issue that in Ireland we know better - electrify the roads rather than rail - and slot us into max speeds of 62.5 mph, or thereabouts for evermore. It's the same brand logic that saw Dublin's tram system scrapped back in the mid 1900's only to start re-instating it a half century later.


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    #301
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,532 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    The roads won't be electrified and neither will the intercity rail network (commuter maybe).

    Both just cost too much to do.

    Cars will go fully electric with batteries.

    Intercity coaches and trucks will likely go natural gas first and then hydrogen or other efuels in the long term. Intercity trains in Ireland will likely end up going the same route.


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