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Croke Park deal to fail

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    #1292
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    true wrote: »
    The government can afford all that, and more, and will be able to reduce our current borrowing of 20 billion a year just to keep public spending paid, if it reduces our current average public sector pay of €49k a year to the UK average of £23.6k a year stg.

    If a beggar is getting food or aid, does he demand double the standard of living of those who are helping him out?

    they can't - fiscally they are in a worse position than we are.

    Btw - you still haven't explain the 2.5% GDP gap between us and the Brits.....go on, enlighten us! I'm sure you know and you're just dying to tell us......or could it be you don't have the foggiest about basic economics apart from what you read in the Telegraph (it's nicknamed the "Torygraph" for a reason) and what you hear mammy and daddy complaining about.

    And lets also reflect on the fact that public debt in this country was well under control until the private sector banks managed to pull the stroke of the century and make us all liable for their greed and inability to manage risk.


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    #1293
    Pappa Charlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭Pappa Charlie


    Jawgap wrote: »
    they can't - fiscally they are in a worse position than we are.

    Btw - you still haven't explain the 2.5% GDP gap between us and the Brits.....go on, enlighten us! I'm sure you know and you're just dying to tell us......or could it be you don't have the foggiest about basic economics apart from what you read in the Telegraph (it's nickname the "Torygraph" for a reason) and what you hear mammy and daddy complaining about.

    And lets also reflect on the fact that public debt in this country was well under control until the private sector banks managed to pull the stroke of the century and make us all liable for their greed and inability to manage risk.

    It's easier go after the public sector, the developers and bankers are rubbing shoulders and in business with many politicans, meantime set the private sector on the public sector and cause a distraction, thank god the public sector unions have the balls to stand up to them because the likes of Johnnydeep and true have fallen hook line and sinker for the spin and diversion tactic of this goverment and their cosy friends in business who they will look after at all cost!


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    #1294
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,383 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Page 87 and still no agreement, the tension is palbable in this thread.


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    #1295
    johnnydeep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 197 ✭✭johnnydeep


    Gordon Stale Birthmark wrote: »
    So, that's not a reason for some of the most important workers in the country to have to. You cannot compare the work of nurses, teachers, guards etc to the private sector. These are vital jobs and the people working in them have to get paid a decent wage. All three are as it stands underpaid for the responsibilities they have. Do you really want people on crap money educating your children or looking after you in hospital?



    Let them try. These people have worked all their lives and deserve this. Any hint of this being reduced and you will have a lot of people retiring very quickly to get it. I know any hint of a reduction and both my parents will retire before it happens. I'd love to see you go face to face with some of the people you are attacking here, you would be running away with your tail between your legs in a matter of minutes.[/QUOTE]

    and back to what I mentioned already. no point arguing with those in the public sector. when they are wrong they get aggressive and threaten you


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    #1296
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    johnnydeep wrote: »
    and back to what I mentioned already. no point arguing with those in the public sector. when they are wrong they get aggressive and threaten you

    I never mentioned aggressiveness I suggested that you wouldn't be half as brave sprouting the crap you are talking in here face to face with real people.

    If you did somehow find the courage to suggest the rubbish about drastically cutting pay to genuine hard working people, carrying out extremely important jobs or cutting lump sum payments and pensions to people who have worked hard through much harder times than these and paid mountains of tax along with paying into their pensions, you would be taken down a notch or too very very fast I can tell you and would think twice before saying anything again.

    People simply wont take the likes of you telling blatant lies, undervaluing their jobs and basically wanting them treated like scum.


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    #1297
    true
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭true


    Gordon Stale Birthmark wrote: »
    You cannot compare the work of nurses, teachers, guards etc to the private sector.

    Correct. Secure, pensionable jobs which pay almost double the rate in the private sector, or for nurses teachers middle-,management, penpushers, and police in other EC jurisdictions, cannot be compared.
    Thats why the troika will, for a start, reduce the average €87,000 tax-free "gratuity" public service workers get on retirement. It will be done by taxation - most people will approve of it as everyone else has to pay taxation - and legislation will bring it in to force on a bank holiday weekend. It will raise a lot more than the hated property tax, so will prove very popular. The government is expected to go up about 5% in the ratings.;)


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    #1298
    barneystinson
    Registered Users Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    true wrote: »
    Correct. Secure, pensionable jobs which pay almost double the rate in the private sector, or for nurses teachers middle-,management, penpushers, and police in other EC jurisdictions, cannot be compared.
    Thats why the troika will, for a start, reduce the average €87,000 tax-free "gratuity" public service workers get on retirement. It will be done by taxation - most people will approve of it as everyone else has to pay taxation - and legislation will bring it in to force on a bank holiday weekend. It will raise a lot more than the hated property tax, so will prove very popular. The government is expected to go up about 5% in the ratings.;)

    If they tax PS lump sums on retirement they'll have to tax all lump sums paid on retirement - see how that affects their ratings. You post some awful ****e!


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    #1299
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    true wrote: »
    Correct. Secure, pensionable jobs which pay almost double the rate in the private sector, or for nurses teachers middle-,management, penpushers, and police in other EC jurisdictions, cannot be compared.
    Thats why the troika will, for a start, reduce the average €87,000 tax-free "gratuity" public service workers get on retirement. It will be done by taxation - most people will approve of it as everyone else has to pay taxation - and legislation will bring it in to force on a bank holiday weekend. It will raise a lot more than the hated property tax, so will prove very popular. The government is expected to go up about 5% in the ratings.;)

    Took you long enough to come up with that silly reply, pushing your brain to its limits no doubt.

    The reason you they cannot be compared is because their jobs are vital, no matter what happens they have to be paid as without them the country can't function. It is not like a private business where the aim is to make profit and if profit isn't being made there are cuts, jobs losses and the place closed down.

    This cannot happen with vital public sector areas such as education, health care etc.

    Nurses, teacher and gardai etc should be paid highly simple as that, as it stands they are underpaid. People with equivalent levels of responsibility in the private sector are paid more, get promoted faster and have better benefits so what you are saying is nonsense.

    The troika cannot do anything, not a thing. Only the government can and if they do attempt to touch the lump sum or introduce anything else with out massive negation with the unions the country will be brought to a standstill. Luckily though things don't work like your vivid imagination.

    Also most people in the country are behind the public sector as they appreciate what they do, you are very much in the minority.


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    #1300
    true
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭true


    Gordon Stale Birthmark wrote: »
    barneystinson wrote: »
    If they tax PS lump sums on retirement they'll have to tax all lump sums paid on retirement - see how that affects their ratings. You post some awful ****e!

    Feck all peope in the private sector get an average lupm sum of €87k tax free AS WELL as a pension of half their finishing salary. Only one in 20 people in the private sector have a pension like that.
    The troika is goig to take it : it will be a condition on them continuing to lend us well over a billion a month to keep the lights on.


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    #1301
    true
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭true


    Gordon Stale Birthmark wrote: »
    Nurses, teacher and gardai etc should be paid highly simple as that, as it stands they are underpaid.

    Our public service is paid more than the countries which are bailing us out eg Germany, UK , China ( as David McWilliams says). Our public servants are still the highest paid in the world and you still think they are underpaid:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:


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    #1302
    Uriel.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    true wrote: »
    Our public service is paid more than the countries which are bailing us out eg Germany, UK , China ( as David McWilliams says). Our public servants are still the highest paid in the world and you still think they are underpaid:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:

    Can you provide some evidence of this assertion


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    #1303
    barneystinson
    Registered Users Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    Gordon Stale Birthmark wrote: »
    Took you long enough to come up with that silly reply, pushing your brain to its limits no doubt.

    The reason you they cannot be compared is because their jobs are vital, no matter what happens they have to be paid as without them the country can't function. It is not like a private business where the aim is to make profit and if profit isn't being made there are cuts, jobs losses and the place closed down.

    This cannot happen with vital public sector areas such as education, health care etc.

    Nurses, teacher and gardai etc should be paid highly simple as that, as it stands they are underpaid. People with equivalent levels of responsibility in the private sector are paid more, get promoted faster and have better benefits so what you are saying is nonsense.

    The troika cannot do anything, not a thing. Only the government can and if they do attempt to touch the lump sum or introduce anything else with out massive negation with the unions the country will be brought to a standstill. Luckily though things don't work like your vivid imagination.

    Also most people in the country are behind the public sector as they appreciate what they do, you are very much in the minority.

    You're nearly as wide of the mark on the pro-PS side as True is on the anti- side. You're as bad as each other.

    With the exception perhaps of policing there's very little that couldn't be almost fully privatised.

    You're like a child, constantly threatening strikes that'll bring the country to a standstill; I don't know where in the PS you work but there's very little appetite for striking by staff where I work. Bottom line is most people can't afford to strike.

    The reality of what happens is somewhere in the enormous gap between the 2 poles that you and the ironically named True occupy.


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    #1304
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    true wrote: »
    Our public service is paid more than the countries which are bailing us out eg Germany, UK , China ( as David McWilliams says). Our public servants are still the highest paid in the world and you still think they are underpaid:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:


    A jimmmy japer gigino now you are losing the run of yourself


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    #1305
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    true wrote: »
    Our public service is paid more than the countries which are bailing us out eg Germany, UK , China ( as David McWilliams says). Our public servants are still the highest paid in the world and you still think they are underpaid:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:

    They are not the highest paid in the world for a start, you are just making that up and yes they are underpaid just because you are not earning as much as them does not mean they are over paid.

    I'm also focusing on on the extremely important area such as health, education and policing not the public sector as a whole, where it its necessary to reward people well for taking on the responsibilities they have in the jobs.

    The fact almost everything you say is wrong isn't stopping you from from continuing to post anyway that's for sure.
    barneystinson wrote: »

    With the exception perhaps of policing there's very little that couldn't be almost fully privatised.

    You're like a child, constantly threatening strikes that'll bring the country to a standstill; I don't know where in the PS you work but there's very little appetite for striking by staff where I work. Bottom line is most people can't afford to strike.

    .

    Already stated in the thread I dont work in the public sector Im just defending it.

    It would not be practical or a good idea at all to fully privatise health and education and it won't happen, however private hospitals and grind schools pay nurses and teachers better than the public sector equivalents a point which should interest "true".


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    #1306
    barneystinson
    Registered Users Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    true wrote: »



    Feck all peope in the private sector get an average lupm sum of €87k tax free AS WELL as a pension of half their finishing salary. Only one in 20 people in the private sector have a pension like that.
    The troika is goig to take it : it will be a condition on them continuing to lend us well over a billion a month to keep the lights on.

    Now you're just showing your ignorance.

    Anyone retiring with a pension (for example a PRSA) can take a tax-free lump sum, go google it.

    If PS lump sums are taxed, so are everyone else's. political suicide. Do you feel silly? You look silly.


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    #1307
    Uriel.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    Gordon Stale Birthmark wrote: »

    The fact almost everything you say is wrong isn't stopping you from from continuing to post anyway that's for sure.



    Already stated in the thread I dont work in the public sector Im just defending it.

    It would not be practical or a good idea at all to fully privatise health and education and it won't happen, however private hospitals and grind schools pay nurses and teachers better than the public sector equivalents a point which should interest "true".

    Why do you keep engaging?


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    #1308
    true
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭true


    The troika is not comparing them to me when they think they are overpaid and overpensioned. It is a condition of them lending us more money that we apply a little common sense. Look what they did in Cyprus.


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    #1309
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Uriel. wrote: »
    Why do you keep engaging?

    Its somewhat entertaining to see what outlandish claim or suggestion he comes up with next.


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    #1310
    true
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭true


    Even more entertaining to see some of the highhest paid and pensioned public sector workers in the world being described as "underpaid". Wake up lads...the IMF/EU are here, its not Berties army 1996 you are in now.


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    #1311
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    true wrote: »
    Our public service is paid more than the countries which are bailing us out eg Germany, UK , China ( as David McWilliams says). Our public servants are still the highest paid in the world and you still think they are underpaid:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:

    Just checking, the David McWilliams you are referring to, would that be the same David McWilliams who in 2011 forecast the imminent demise of the Euro? or who in 2012 said of the now discredited Rogoff -Reinhart Study....

    "One of the best books published in recent years....."

    Is that the David McWilliams you are deputising into your argument?

    Well if he's good enough for you, he's good enough for me, so lets go with this idea of not paying the promissory notes.....BOOM! €30 billion saved right there......


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    #1312
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    the government are going to show their back like a snake and roll over


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    #1313
    true
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭true


    handlemaster wrote: »
    the government are going to show their back like a snake and roll over

    Agreed. We have one of the highest paid public sectors, if not the highest paid in the world ( at an average of 49k a year according to their own statistics department www.cso.ie ), yet despite the IMF being here they will continue to pay Joe and Mary the public servants from Donegal and Dundalk nearly double what their counterparts in Down, Derby or Dresden get. The ordinary taxpayer / citizen is being told to roll over.


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    #1314
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,467 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    true wrote: »
    Agreed. We have one of the highest paid public sectors, if not the highest paid in the world ( at an average of 49k a year according to their own statistics department www.cso.ie ), yet despite the IMF being here they will continue to pay Joe and Mary the public servants from Donegal and Dundalk nearly double what their counterparts in Down, Derby or Dresden get. The ordinary taxpayer / citizen is being told to roll over.

    You dont think public sector workers are ordinary taxpayers or citizens do you?


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    #1315
    true
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭true


    kippy wrote: »
    You dont think public sector workers are ordinary taxpayers or citizens do you?
    • Not when they get treated so differently from everyone else
    • nearly double the earnings per hour on average compared to the private sector
    • lump sums tax free of average 87k on retirement, plus a golden pension
    • shorter working week ( only 32 hours on average )
    • more sickies
    Public servants are net receivers from the government : private sector workers fund the government.


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    #1316
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,467 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    true wrote: »
    • Not when they get treated so differently from everyone else
    • nearly double the earnings per hour on average compared to the private sector
    • lump sums tax free of average 87k on retirement, plus a golden pension
    • shorter working week ( only 32 hours on average )
    • more sickies
    Public servants are net receivers from the government : private sector workers fund the government.
    You're funny. No really..........


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    #1317
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    true wrote: »
    • Not when they get treated so differently from everyone else
    • nearly double the earnings per hour on average compared to the private sector
    • lump sums tax free of average 87k on retirement, plus a golden pension
    • shorter working week ( only 32 hours on average )
    • more sickies
    Public servants are net receivers from the government : private sector workers fund the government.
    I'm interested......

    as a PS worker, how am I treated differently from everyone else - is there a secret handshake I'm missing out on?

    How about linking to some evidence to back that the rest of that bilge up?

    I'm trying to figure out if you're a student on some mincey arts degree who's picked up a few titbits from listening in at the grown-ups table of if you're someone who tried but failed to get into the PS - difficult to believe that with your keen, insightful analysis you're the latter, but maybe you were just too good - they couldn't let you in because you'd just make the rest of us look pedestrian.......


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    #1318
    Pappa Charlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭Pappa Charlie


    true wrote: »
    • Not when they get treated so differently from everyone else
    • nearly double the earnings per hour on average compared to the private sector
    • lump sums tax free of average 87k on retirement, plus a golden pension
    • shorter working week ( only 32 hours on average )
    • more sickies
    Public servants are net receivers from the government : private sector workers fund the government.

    they are doing a great job at funding it at the moment, seanie fitz and fingers funded the private sector and developers during the boom, maybe our private sector is not able to truly compete now that the silly money is gone, maybe that's the real problem an inefficent private sector!


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    #1319
    Almaviva
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,490 ✭✭✭Almaviva


    kippy wrote: »
    You dont think public sector workers are ordinary taxpayers or citizens do you?

    Not fully. They are employees of the ordinary private sector taxpayers and citizens. Sometimes public sector workers forget that.


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    #1320
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Almaviva wrote: »
    Not fully. They are employees of the ordinary private sector taxpayers and citizens. Sometimes public sector workers forget that.

    At the end of the day though on a personal level, both pay tax from their gross salary and its no easier for a public sector worker reading the list of deductions from his salary than it is for a private sector worker. Especially as a public sector worker has more deductions.


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    #1321
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Almaviva wrote: »
    Not fully. They are employees of the ordinary private sector taxpayers and citizens. Sometimes public sector workers forget that.

    Some do, a lot don't - I know it might be popular but actually don't mind the being described as a Public Servant - in the best traditions of the boy scouts, one of the main reasons I joined the PS from the private sector was to help people rather than build profits.

    I'm not against the wage bill being cut - it has to be, but I am against wage cuts - there's plenty of deadwood to be trimmed from the PS, and this should be done as part of a real reform programme.

    There's lots of other things that could also be done, increasing the top rate of income tax by 1%, introduce student loans instead of grants, close out some tax avoidance schemes - in that list there may have to be wage cuts, but they shouldn't be at the top.

    There should also be acknowledgement that the mood is swinging away from austerity - the 3% deficit by 2015 is no longer the Holy Grail.


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