Could the train once again be the King of the Dublin/Cork route?

Grandeeod · 22-04-2013 12:00am

steamengine wrote: »

When bus / coaches can do Dublin - Cork in 2h : 45m, while stopping at all the towns the train does to pick up and set down, - when there is no doubt about whether one can have a pee or not at will - when they have First Class - when they have a catering trolley - when they have their own dedicated road space with the same separation for safety, - when they can hit 100mph - then perhaps they can take over the crown. In the meantime they are merely princes in waiting and pretenders to the throne. The king might be a bit under the weather at the moment but he is not dead - long live the king.

The King is absolutely dead. The poor decisions made during the Celtic Tiger era, will ultimately kill it. Hate saying it, but the CIE property development fiasco was a campaign against IC rail travel. It was actually a campaign against developing the rail network for the better. It was really a campaign to develop the network to a level that CIE was more affordable to the Government. Commuter routes and little else. IC is in real trouble and I have no faith in the CIE group doing anything tangible to address it. That will suit the Government.

Irish politicians are far more interested in gaining a vote from a daft proposal rather than the ultimate development of the existing network. In the middle of this is CIE, who are sunk in a tradition of inconsistent management, unions and making decisions based on unpredictable Governance. Its a mess!

MGWR · 22-04-2013 4:17am

Grandeeod wrote: »

The King is absolutely dead. The poor decisions made during the Celtic Tiger era, will ultimately kill it. Hate saying it, but the CIE property development fiasco was a campaign against IC rail travel. It was actually a campaign against developing the rail network for the better. It was really a campaign to develop the network to a level that CIE was more affordable to the Government. Commuter routes and little else. IC is in real trouble and I have no faith in the CIE group doing anything tangible to address it. That will suit the Government.

Irish politicians are far more interested in gaining a vote from a daft proposal rather than the ultimate development of the existing network. In the middle of this is CIE, who are sunk in a tradition of inconsistent management, unions and making decisions based on unpredictable Governance. It's a mess!

Trying to write a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Commuter operations are the least affordable of all rail operations, with the high wear and tear and maintenance intensity. Properly-adminstered long-distance operations make more. Freight makes the most, but given the inherent conflict of interest when government spending has two types of transport mode dependent on it, one will be favoured over the other, i.e. until the favoured one reaches its limit, which it is already at.

Given the country's relationship with the EU, the national Government will eventually vote itself out of existence. (Not for the first time in the land's history, mind you.) The transport infrastructure of the country is not necessarily inextricably bound up with such a fate. The EU has been making moves towards pushing liberalisation upon most (not all) state-owned railways, and this will come to Ireland eventually.

bk · 22-04-2013 8:05am

Losty Dublin, what you missed is that almost everyone in the Netherlands uses the OV-Chipkaart, their equivalent of the Leap card and the maximum price of a single train tickets on this card is €20, some even go down to €10 :

http://www.ov-chipkaart.nl/reizen/tarieven/instapenbasistarief/

Basically the prices you found, are the more expensive prices they charge for people who they are trying to get off the old way of paying and onto the ov-chipkaart. Kind of like the cheaper leap fares versus cash.

Also note that the €20 is the boarding rate, the max you are charged when you initially tag-on, you will be refunded when you tag-off depending on distance, so the train ticket can even be much cheaper.

Also this allows you to use multiple trains within one journey and also transfer onto trams and buses. So incredibly good value compared to Ireland.

corktina · 22-04-2013 9:00am

steamengine wrote: »

When bus / coaches can do Dublin - Cork in 2h : 45m, while stopping at all the towns the train does to pick up and set down, - when there is no doubt about whether one can have a pee or not at will - when they have First Class - when they have a catering trolley - when they have their own dedicated road space with the same separation for safety, - when they can hit 100mph - then perhaps they can take over the crown. In the meantime they are merely princes in waiting and pretenders to the throne. The king might be a bit under the weather at the moment but he is not dead - long live the king.

it's not Prince Coach that former King Train has to fear, it's Emperor Car who will finish him off. Yes, it has no toilet , even an old guy like me almost never has to stop enroute for the jacks, but it can out pace the train to Dublin even if it sticks to the limit because it goes door to door. It can have catering if I take it with me and it is all first class with my own compartment with noone to annoy me, a choice of entertainment and climate control.I get my own guaranteed reserved seat and I can bring 4 of my mates along for free!

Losty Dublin · 22-04-2013 9:10am

bk wrote: »

Losty Dublin, what you missed is that almost everyone in the Netherlands uses the OV-Chipkaart, their equivalent of the Leap card and the maximum price of a single train tickets on this card is €20, some even go down to €10 :

http://www.ov-chipkaart.nl/reizen/tarieven/instapenbasistarief/

And with good reason why I missed it; there is rather a scant mention of it or its applicable fares on the NS website, somewhere you'd actually expect to find same first hand.

bk wrote: »

Basically the prices you found, are the more expensive prices they charge for people who they are trying to get off the old way of paying and onto the ov-chipkaart. Kind of like the cheaper leap fares versus cash.

Also note that the €20 is the boarding rate, the max you are charged when you initially tag-on, you will be refunded when you tag-off depending on distance, so the train ticket can even be much cheaper.

Also this allows you to use multiple trains within one journey and also transfer onto trams and buses. So incredibly good value compared to Ireland.

You will also find that they bundle discount cards onto these passes, including those given to OAPs and students. This along with the massive state back up and subventions pumped into their railway system allows them to run the card on the scope that it is, along with cheaper fare. As yer man once said, so long as I'm not paying for it

Con Logue · 22-04-2013 9:14am

corktina wrote: »

it's not Prince Coach that former King Train has to fear, it's Emperor Car who will finish him off. Yes, it has no toilet , even an old guy like me almost never has to stop enroute for the jacks, but it can out pace the train to Dublin even if it sticks to the limit because it goes door to door. It can have catering if I take it with me and it is all first class with my own compartment with noone to annoy me, a choice of entertainment and climate control.I get my own guaranteed reserved seat and I can bring 4 of my mates along for free!

And very soon you will be paying an Emperor's Ransom for petrol or diesel. Since 2002 the price has doubled, we aren't very far off having a national conversation about at what price point discretionary driving won't happen. €2 a litre? €3? Or more? There's no reason why we ultimately won't be paying the price of a packet of cigarettes for a litre of diesel.

L1011 · 22-04-2013 9:27am

Thats odd, could have sworn the price was currently falling... Topaz must have been having a sale?

Losty Dublin · 22-04-2013 9:33am

MYOB wrote: »

Thats odd, could have sworn the price was currently falling... Topaz must have been having a sale?

Two cent from my last fill up, which was at Easter weekend. Slaughter the best lamb and let's celebrate

I could show you receipts from a few years back when 70 cent a litre petrol was considered dear, fuel inflation would bring tears to a glass eye of the trioka.

L1011 · 22-04-2013 10:12am

More than a few years... Been over 85 as long as I've been driving unless it dipped hugely when I was in the UK

The bulk of increases are domestic caused too - duty and vat. The oil price component is very low

corktina · 22-04-2013 10:20am

Con Logue wrote: »

And very soon you will be paying an Emperor's Ransom for petrol or diesel. Since 2002 the price has doubled, we aren't very far off having a national conversation about at what price point discretionary driving won't happen. €2 a litre? €3? Or more? There's no reason why we ultimately won't be paying the price of a packet of cigarettes for a litre of diesel.

probably true, but , wait a minute, does the price of fuel for a train or a bus never rise? What's more I think you'll find that the class 201s use the same amount of fuel they used to 10 years ago or more, whilst the car is getting more fuel efficient all the time, and what about all those electric cars that are being introduced, and the hybrids? Do you imagine car technology wont keep evolving? Train technology is meantime caught in a timewarp....

Richard Logue · 22-04-2013 11:18am

The rising price of Diesel may ultimately force the electrification of the main IE routes in the longer term.

corktina · 22-04-2013 11:23am

Richard Logue wrote: »

The rising price of Diesel may ultimately force the electrification of the main IE routes in the longer term.

...or kill it if we can't find the capital....

Losty Dublin · 22-04-2013 12:19pm

corktina wrote: »

probably true, but , wait a minute, does the price of fuel for a train or a bus never rise? What's more I think you'll find that the class 201s use the same amount of fuel they used to 10 years ago or more, whilst the car is getting more fuel efficient all the time, and what about all those electric cars that are being introduced, and the hybrids? Do you imagine car technology wont keep evolving? Train technology is meantime caught in a timewarp....

That is correct but the most efficient car is going to use multiples of diesel in comparision to a train or bus per head carried. Similarly, an electrican car hasn't a patch on the energy efficiency of a Dart or Luas. A car would need to be at the hundreds of miles to the gallon to have a comparible energy consumption level. While the motor engine has caught up a lot in relation with fuel efficiency, much of the gains have been be eaten up with enhanced interior comforts and on board electronics along with our love with larger engines and vehicles over the years so whiel in car performance is better it hasn't saved as much in the pocket that you'd expect.

corktina · 22-04-2013 12:44pm

Yes but the guy is saying that rising fuel costs will tilt the balance in favour of the train when in fact rising fuel costs will push car technology towards being more efficient, the opposite effect. We are stuck with class 201s for the next decade or more, whilst cars improve. Rising fuel prices therefore are more of a threat to the train than the car.

bk · 22-04-2013 12:55pm

And do remember that bus coaches use less diesel per passenger then trains. So their already very cheap ticket prices will rise slower then rail will.

Add to that the fact that coaches typically get replaced much more frequently then trains and also benefit from the same advancements in fuel efficiency technology (hybrid engines, etc.) that goes into cars.

Many buses (though not coaches that I know of) already operate using biofuels and gas.

Furthermore people already drive the Nissan Leaf (a fully electric car) from Cork to Dublin, there is an excellent blog about a Nissan Leaf owner here in Ireland, it works well.

Rocky Bay · 22-04-2013 1:24pm

According to the Financial Times of 15/4/13 "...The U.S. rail industry has reached a crossing point in its debate over making a transition from running diesel fuel to adopting liquefied natural gas. Natural gas power could slash costs for US railways which operate the world's largest and busiest rail freight network compared with existing diesel fuel". LNG locomotives before electrifing the Dublin/Cork line? I have not figured out how to do "links" yet otherwise I would have provided it. The article appeared on 15/4/13 titled "US rail picks up converts for LNG" by Robert Wright.

bk · 22-04-2013 1:36pm

Rocky Bay wrote: »

According to the Financial Times of 15/4/13 "...The U.S. rail industry has reached a crossing point in its debate over making a transition from running diesel fuel to adopting liquefied natural gas. Natural gas power could slash costs for US railways which operate the world's largest and busiest rail freight network compared with existing diesel fuel". LNG locomotives before electrifing the Dublin/Cork line?

Given how relatively new our locomotives are it is unlikely that they will be replaced in the short to medium term.

In the long term I think we are far more likely to see them go to LNG, hydrogen or pure battery powered then electrify the lines at all. I honestly think it is very unlikely we will undergo the massive capital cost of electrifying our rail lines.

You are correct, the US will lead the way on this. Given the massive size of their network they are very unlikely to electrify, so they will look for and develop cheaper alternatives and we will probably buy those alternatives a few years down the line when they become cheaper and reliable.

Polar101 · 22-04-2013 1:47pm

A lot of this discussion sounds like it could be from the 1950s - trains are outdated, there is this new fancy way of traveling called coaches, soon people will drive their own automobiles.

corktina · 22-04-2013 1:50pm

not at all, there a little thing called MOTORWAYS on the scene now....

steamengine · 22-04-2013 1:52pm

corktina wrote: »

it's not Prince Coach that former King Train has to fear, it's Emperor Car who will finish him off. Yes, it has no toilet , even an old guy like me almost never has to stop enroute for the jacks, but it can out pace the train to Dublin even if it sticks to the limit because it goes door to door. It can have catering if I take it with me and it is all first class with my own compartment with noone to annoy me, a choice of entertainment and climate control.I get my own guaranteed reserved seat and I can bring 4 of my mates along for free!

It looks like your Emperor Car has no clothes, according to this report :-

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0409/380405-air-quality/

bk · 22-04-2013 2:07pm

steamengine wrote: »

It looks like your Emperor Car has no clothes, according to this report :-

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0409/380405-air-quality/

And what has that to do with electric cars?

And do you really believe people will give up on their cars?

I'm saying this as a cyclist, heavy public transport user and a person who doesn't own a car out of choice.

But I'm also a realist and I know that the automobile isn't going away. Instead we have to find ways to make it more environmentally friendly and also make public transport more attractive.

Con Logue · 22-04-2013 2:13pm

Polar101 wrote: »

A lot of this discussion sounds like it could be from the 1950s - trains are outdated, there is this new fancy way of traveling called coaches, soon people will drive their own automobiles.

..and killing the railways to save them.. sounds familiar

corktina · 22-04-2013 2:15pm

steamengine wrote: »

It looks like your Emperor Car has no clothes, according to this report :-

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0409/380405-air-quality/

quite apart from it being a fact that air quality in Ireland is pretty good generally, the same point made earlier applies....car technology is improving all the time and diesel trucks/buses have made huge strides in recent years and are not the bete noir they once might have been, and yet we have the same old class 201s and will have for a long time. Such articles actualy strengthen the road lobby vs rail lobby position

Richard Logue · 22-04-2013 2:25pm

It does feel like 1950s Ireland all over again. Even the same old arguments against railways are being trotted out.

Losty Dublin · 22-04-2013 2:30pm

bk wrote: »

And do remember that bus coaches use less diesel per passenger then trains.

Source for this nugget you like to quote?

steamengine · 22-04-2013 2:33pm

corktina wrote: »

quite apart from it being a fact that air quality in Ireland is pretty good generally, the same point made earlier applies....car technology is improving all the time and diesel trucks/buses have made huge strides in recent years and are not the bete noir they once might have been, and yet we have the same old class 201s and will have for a long time. Such articles actualy strengthen the road lobby vs rail lobby position

I don't think Taisce would agree with you there re the link I posted or perhaps you think it's all bull.

corktina · 22-04-2013 2:39pm

perhaps I do but what I said was that road transport is developing and improving whilst rail is not.

Same old arguments Mr Logue? well then you should have had plenty of time to think up some counter arguements, lets hear even just one!

steamengine · 22-04-2013 2:49pm

bk wrote: »

And what has that to do with electric cars?

And do you really believe people will give up on their cars?

I'm saying this as a cyclist, heavy public transport user and a person who doesn't own a car out of choice.

But I'm also a realist and I know that the automobile isn't going away. Instead we have to find ways to make it more environmentally friendly and also make public transport more attractive.

Electric cars haven't yet taken off here so to quote that link is fair enough as it refers to the status quo. The most environmentally advanced form of mass public transport we have at the moment IMO is the Dart and Luas which essentially are powered 15% by renewables - one could say every seventh Dart is wind powered. Electrified rail is the way forward, again IMO, no fancy as yet unproven technologies - just copy what our neighbouring countries are doing.

corktina · 22-04-2013 2:53pm

i'd agree about electric railways IF you have the capital to build them and IF you have enough passengers to make them economic. There is some scope around Dublin to electrify more lines, but I sincerely doubt that a case could be made for anything else. What our neighbours are doing is hardly relevant.

Richard Logue · 22-04-2013 3:01pm

corktina wrote: »

perhaps I do but what I said was that road transport is developing and improving whilst rail is not.

Same old arguments Mr Logue? well then you should have had plenty of time to think up some counter arguements, lets hear even just one!

Counter arguments to what? It's the same old broken record from the same old people again and again. You don't like freight rail and rarely travel by train, bk loves buses and everyone pushes their straw man view of the world and expects everyone to agree with them.

We need but don't have an integrated transport system where local buses feed trains - CIE as a whole can't or won't deliver this.

We needed investment in the railway infrastructure to deliver higher than legal road speeds and more capacity, especially on the Galway line. The Belfast route needs higher speeds and more capacity to ensure suburban trains aren't blocking Inter City trains. Meanwhile the motorway network has had money thrown at it and some landowners have cleaned up...

Frankly I'm bored of the endless dialogue of the deaf on this subject.

Con Logue · 22-04-2013 3:12pm

Richard Logue wrote: »

Counter arguments to what? It's the same old broken record from the same old people again and again. You don't like freight rail and rarely travel by train, bk loves buses and everyone pushes their straw man view of the world and expects everyone to agree with them.

We need but don't have an integrated transport system where local buses feed trains - CIE as a whole can't or won't deliver this.

Frankly I'm bored of the endless dialogue of the deaf on this subject.

Indeed. Counter arguments only work if those with a fixed interest are prepared to concede any points. I could research a heap of stuff about gas turbine and electric technology - which isn't my field of study, history is - waste hours putting it up here, but the burden of proof needed by Corktina et al would wear a hole in a year. I really don't see that as my purpose in life, though some seem to have endless hours in the day to put their point of view across.

In short, I will choose what I want to post and most certainly don't feel obliged to react to grandstanding to an imaginary external audience.

corktina · 22-04-2013 3:16pm

Richard Logue wrote: »

Counter arguments to what? It's the same old broken record from the same old people again and again. You don't like freight rail and rarely travel by train, bk loves buses and everyone pushes their straw man view of the world and expects everyone to agree with them.

We need but don't have an integrated transport system where local buses feed trains - CIE as a whole can't or won't deliver this.

We needed investment in the railway infrastructure to deliver higher than legal road speeds and more capacity, especially on the Galway line. The Belfast route needs higher speeds and more capacity to ensure suburban trains aren't blocking Inter City trains. Meanwhile the motorway network has had money thrown at it and some landowners have cleaned up...

Frankly I'm bored of the endless dialogue of the deaf on this subject.

what are you talking about? What the guy said was that rising fuel prices would tip the balance in favour of rail and several poster have averred that the opposite is the case....where did the rest of that come from? did you read the latest posts at all?

check out the thread title btw...

Richard Logue · 22-04-2013 3:20pm

Now you're just being slippery. I have better things to do with my time today than waste it arguing with you on any railway related matter.

Con Logue · 22-04-2013 3:20pm

corktina wrote: »

what are you talking about? What the guy said was that rising fuel prices would tip the balance in favour of rail and several poster have averred that the opposite is the case....where did the rest of that come from? did you read the latest posts at all?

Just as a refresher, here is what I actually said.

And very soon you will be paying an Emperor's Ransom for petrol or diesel. Since 2002 the price has doubled, we aren't very far off having a national conversation about at what price point discretionary driving won't happen. €2 a litre? €3? Or more? There's no reason why we ultimately won't be paying the price of a packet of cigarettes for a litre of diesel.

I haven't mentioned rail in this or tipping any balance anywhere. The substantive point is that the cost of fueling a private car has doubled since 2002 and in my view given that they aren't making any more oil, only exploiting what is already there, it isn't going to get less scarce then.

At what point does unlimited car usage become unaffordable? That is my substantive point.

corktina · 22-04-2013 3:29pm

and my point is that whilst the car is moving towards being more efficient and less oil-dependent , the cork dublin line is saddled with class 201s for the forseeable future and thus less likely to become "king" regrettably (for I really would like to see rail improve but fear for it's future without a lot of investment).

Thus my answer to the question in the title is "probably no".

bk · 22-04-2013 4:10pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Source for this nugget you like to quote?

http://www.carbonfund.org/how-we-calculate

Intercity trains are measured to emit almost twice as much CO2 per passenger mile. Lots of other links show the same.

Of course we are talking about Diesel trains here, electric trains is a different story.

It makes sense, trains are pretty heavy, much heavier then an equivalent buses. And it takes a lot of fuel to drive all that weight.

For instance an Empty mark 4 carriage weighs 43,000 kg and carries 62 passengers.

For comparison a Van Hool TX17 Acorn can carry 63 passengers and weighs just 24,000 kg.

And remember we aren't taking into account the weight of the train engine!

Another aspect to consider is that full heavy 8 carriage trains have to be pulled up and down the country even at off peak times when they are almost empty. While coaches can be added or taken more easily based on demand.

n97 mini · 22-04-2013 4:22pm

Not sure about the maths there, for a few reasons.

Train is heavier so takes more fuel to get moving, but once moving, it has only one front surface cutting through the air, and some designs can be quite aerodynamic indeed. 8 coaches will have 8 front surfaces. Secondly the friction on rails would be a tiny fraction of that of tyres on a road.

However, CO2 is only one emission. Diesel engines emit carcinogenic fumes which pose a more immediate risk to human health.

bk · 22-04-2013 4:48pm

n97 mini wrote: »

However, CO2 is only one emission. Diesel engines emit carcinogenic fumes which pose a more immediate risk to human health.

And trains diesel engines emit the same fumes.

In fact the current coach engine emission rules Euro 5 are stricter then trains and from this year all new coaches will be using vastly stricter standards again, Euro 6

http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/eu/hd.php

Cool Mo D · 22-04-2013 5:46pm

bk wrote: »

http://www.carbonfund.org/how-we-calculate

Intercity trains are measured to emit almost twice as much CO2 per passenger mile. Lots of other links show the same.

That link is for US intercity rail, which carry very small numbers of passengers very long distances, and use much heavier carriages then European railways. Irish Rail alone carries more passengers than Amtrak every year.

The figures are not valid for an Irish context.

BenShermin · 22-04-2013 7:15pm

I think it's frankly obsurd to say that this debate is like something out of the 1950s. We live in a world of Scania Irizar and Volvo 9700 travel these days, try get a coach as comfortable as either of the two of them in the 1950s. Also try to get that thing called a motorway to put them on in the 1950s. If I was to read Beeching's report on British Rail in the 50s/60s it mainly dealt with closure of branch lines, UK intercity was never at threat so I just don't understand this 1950s argument on this thread.

Nobody on the pro-bus side of this thread is calling for the closure of the railways so I don't know why the pro-rail side is getting worked up. If anything BK and other simular posters are actually giving great input ideas on how rail could be improved.

Would I as a GoBÉ user be on a bus today for 3hrs if the railway done the trip in 2hrs and the fare was €30 return? Not a chance.

Richard Logue · 22-04-2013 7:36pm

Ben you, bk and foggy_lad thanked Grandeeod for this post earlier in the thread so it is somewhat misleading to claim no one was advocating the end of Inter City rail travel.

As to Beeching, had his second report been accepted by the British Railways Board the GB Inter City network would have been reduced to a rump of what it is today.

Grandeeod wrote: »

I love train travel. However we can argue all night about the if, buts and whens. Currently and as things stand in Ireland, the motorway network has proven how small the country actually is. There is no side stepping this reality. Until the completion of the motorway network, rail was favourable but only due to the diabolical nature of our road network. Now IC rail travel is being exposed as the poorly invested in predecessor of the modern road that plugged a hole in a road deficit and is no longer relevant in its current guise.

But as a small nation can we afford or justify the expensive catch up scenarios that other European nations followed post motorway? Irelands railways have always been unique and always will be. We can only examine their future once we are prepared to accept their uniqueness in a European context. We are a small island that lacks a real level of population density. We have invested in road infrastructure that many believe is OTT. But its there and shrinking journey times as I type. Perhaps road transport is the IC solution in Ireland and rail should be developed only at a commuter level?

Im accutely aware that CIE would love to close most of the rail network if the bean counters got their way and I hate admitting that a lot of our rail network is now redundant. However, if we can't afford it and don't actually need most of it, why perlong the inevitable? As a rail lover, I firmly believe that Ireland and its uniqueness in rail terms, combined with its size and modernized road network has reduced our need for rail travel to a mere commuter use.......unless we have money to burn and we may never have again.

Richard Logue · 22-04-2013 7:38pm

BenShermin wrote: »

Would I as a GoBÉ user be on a bus today for 3hrs if the railway done the trip in 2hrs and the fare was €30 return? Not a chance.

I think we can both agree on this one. This will need new investment and the will to implement it.

foggy_lad · 22-04-2013 7:49pm

Richard Logue wrote: »

I think we can both agree on this one. This will need new investment and the will to implement it.

The whole issue is that Irish Rail/C.I.E. will never sanction or allow investment or improvement for a return of only €33.20 return for Galway-Dublin, They can't afford to!

Richard Logue · 22-04-2013 7:53pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

The whole issue is that Irish Rail/C.I.E. will never sanction or allow investment or improvement for a return of only €33.20 return for Galway-Dublin, They can't afford to!

I'm not so sure foggy. There have been fare promotions across the IC network before and I am certain there will be again.

We know the passenger numbers went up when the fares were lower, but the one area that IE don't seem to capitalise on is non stop trains to the key destinations Cork, Galway, Belfast and Dublin.

Back in the 70s there were some non stop trains from Dublin to Cork and Belfast and vice versa, maybe there should be some more, timed to ensure that business travellers get to these cities before 9am?

L1011 · 22-04-2013 8:00pm

I'd need non-stop services and car hire available at the other end - (in general) business travellers aren't using the coaches either, they're in cars, particularly since the domestic flights ended.

Dublin-Cork flights ran unsubsidised and really ended due to a destructive price war between Ryanair and Aer Arann ensuring it wasn't viable for either of them. The fact that Aer Lingus are now heavily selling the idea of connecting to TATL services in Dublin means there's another reason there might be flights again. If someone restarts these, the plane will be king again - for business travellers anyway.

I used to fly to ORK fairly frequently - I could be with a customer in Bandon in 2 hours from my house and not tired, vs 3 hours and destroyed, with 600km closer to a service on the car and a hell of a lot of diesel used.

Jamie2k9 · 22-04-2013 8:05pm

MYOB wrote: »

I'd need non-stop services and car hire available at the other end - (in general) business travellers aren't using the coaches either, they're in cars, particularly since the domestic flights ended.

Dublin-Cork flights ran unsubsidised and really ended due to a destructive price war between Ryanair and Aer Arann ensuring it wasn't viable for either of them. The fact that Aer Lingus are now heavily selling the idea of connecting to TATL services in Dublin means there's another reason there might be flights again. If someone restarts these, the plane will be king again - for business travellers anyway.

I used to fly to ORK fairly frequently - I could be with a customer in Bandon in 2 hours from my house and not tired, vs 3 hours and destroyed, with 600km closer to a service on the car and a hell of a lot of diesel used.

Can't see Cork-Dublin bieng viable in the current climate, can't depend on all T/A traffic when SNN is close enough to ORK. The train will be King as we already know that current timetables could be cut to 2h25 if not a little less and a non stop service could be done in 2h15m however if the Cork-Mallow section of line was improved to have higer speeds it would help and with the bridge works taking place next week or two it should be an improvment as the TSR will be dropped in by the end of May. The TSR's at Monstervan were fixed and track between Sallins and Kildare replaced to allow 100mph running as well as the small section between Nass and Hazelhatch which needs repalcing then Cork could have some very good journey times.

At best we may get Cork-Dublin down to 2h10m non stop with the current stock operating but no better.

Con Logue · 22-04-2013 8:07pm

MYOB wrote: »

I'd need non-stop services and car hire available at the other end - (in general) business travellers aren't using the coaches either, they're in cars, particularly since the domestic flights ended.

Dublin-Cork flights ran unsubsidised and really ended due to a destructive price war between Ryanair and Aer Arann ensuring it wasn't viable for either of them. The fact that Aer Lingus are now heavily selling the idea of connecting to TATL services in Dublin means there's another reason there might be flights again. If someone restarts these, the plane will be king again - for business travellers anyway.

I used to fly to ORK fairly frequently - I could be with a customer in Bandon in 2 hours from my house and not tired, vs 3 hours and destroyed, with 600km closer to a service on the car and a hell of a lot of diesel used.

There are structural problems with the airport as serious option for Dublin to Cork - getting to DUB, queueing for security, queueing to get on, getting off at the other end and going from ORK to Cork itself. Tick tock the lot of it.

L1011 · 22-04-2013 8:10pm

Con Logue wrote: »

There are serious structural problems with the airport as serious option for Dublin to Cork - getting to DUB, queueing for security, queueing to get on, getting off at the other end and going from ORK to Cork itself. Tick tock the lot of it.

Getting from Kent to anywhere else in Cork than the city centre takes as long. Business travellers will generally have fasttrack (oh god how I miss that when travelling now).

I would never, ever consider getting a coach if travelling for work but would consider the train if a number of things were fixed - journey time, cleanliness and enforcement of passengers not acting like idiots would be critical ones.

markpb · 22-04-2013 8:14pm

Con Logue wrote: »

There are structural problems with the airport as serious option for Dublin to Cork - getting to DUB, queueing for security, queueing to get on, getting off at the other end and going from ORK to Cork itself. Tick tock the lot of it.

Dublin airport is a strange beast - there are time when security is inexplicably slow but most of the time, the security queues at T2 are about five minutes. My wife commuted to/from London for some time last year and between online check-in and no checked luggage, she could arrive at the airport half an hour before departure and be comfortably on time.

And of course, some people live close to the airport (we lived a fifteen minute bus trip away) so claiming that getting to the airport is a disincentive is equally true for Conolly or any bus gate.

That's said, I'm not sure it'll ever truly compete with rail or bus - it would always have been a niche player.

Jamie2k9 · 22-04-2013 8:17pm

If Aer Lingus/Aer Arann were to restart the route then passengers get buses from aircraft to terminal whch can take some time at DUB.

Could the train once again be the King of the Dublin/Cork route?

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