Could the train once again be the King of the Dublin/Cork route?

Richard Logue

bk wrote: »

JD that has to be some of the biggest fear mongering bs I've ever heard!!

Seriously, this is what rail fans are trying to push now.

The motorways are superb, built to a very high speak, you certainly won't be stuck behind any juggernaut on any motorway in Ireland.

Not my experience on the M4 to Kinnegad last week. Two trucks in front of me overtaking each other for about 10km it seemed. Not to mention the elderly drivers crawling along at 80 clicks in the overtaking lane!

This also have an excellent safety record, playing a major part in the big reduction in road deaths over the last 5 years.

And it isn't as if rail bridges just collapse or anything like that now is it!!!

You are comparing a mostly brand new motorway network with a 150 year old viaduct which when it collapsed did not fortunately cause any injuries, let alone fatalities.

And whilst road deaths are mercifully on the decrease in Ireland, thanks mostly to the drink driving laws and speed limit enforcement, we haven't had any rail fatalities since 1991 according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_railway_accidents

Solair

Thephantomsmask wrote: »

Solair - there's 2 sockets behind seat 6 in those carriages. They should be at every seat like you said though.

Yeah, I know there are two there, but there's also no table and last time I booked them I was asked to move by an old person who got on and needed the accessible seats.

It's a bit of a joke that you have to basically book disabled seating to get access to a socket on the wall that's clearly intended for the cleaners rather than for passenger laptops.

It certainly doesn't make the service business/student/laptop user friendly. The 22000s are great with all their fancy laptop plugging in sockets!

Richard Logue

I actually prefer the 22000s to the Mk IVs. The Mk IVs could really do with a refurbishment and those all important power sockets.

Solair

Richard Logue wrote: »

I actually prefer the 22000s to the Mk IVs. The Mk IVs could really do with a refurbishment and those all important power sockets.

Yeah, I agree, they need them retrofitted and probably need a bit of a sprucing up at this stage. Some of them are looking a bit 'tatty' - worn upholstery etc.

Since there's so many 22000s in circulation, they should be able to take the MK4's out for a tidy up.

Judgement Day wrote: »

One area where the train will always beat the car is for safe, relaxing, stress-free travel. No idiot trying to cut in in front of you and force you off the road, no hassle getting stuck behind juggernauts etc.etc. Even on Bus Eireann you have to put up with this - especially if you sit at the front as I always try to do.

The roads have improved rather drastically since that ad was made in 1976! They were pretty terrible in the 1970s from what I've read / heard (I wasn't around in those days)

I have to say, my driving experience in Ireland has been the total opposite to what you're describing. It's in the top 5 safest countries in Europe to drive these days and statistically far safer than the US, Canada and Australia.

Rail's safer if you're a really bad driver / want to go asleep etc. but, Ireland's roads aren't exactly terrifying!

Richard Logue

I was around in the seventies and remember that ad well and the poor roads we had then. I particularly liked the shot of the Hillman Avenger crossing the railway bridge as it was very 70s!

Many of our main roads (known then as T roads) were pretty narrow in places and it used to take us three hours to travel from Leixlip to Cashel. The Naas Dual Carriageway was in place as far as the outskirts of Naas but from Naas onwards the road was a crawl until outside Portlaoise where it widened a bit.

More often than not we'd get the train from Heuston to Thurles and would be whisked down to Thurles for a 20 minute hair raising car ride to Cashel via Holycross. Those were the days alright.

Solair

It used to take 8 hours or so to get to Cork from Dublin?

Cool_CM

bk wrote: »

There already is.

Though to be honest if you want quietness and the ability to sleep then the bus is definitely much better IMO.

There is, it's usually the one furthest away from the dining carriage where you are directed to when you don't have a seat reservation. It is generally anything but quiet!

foggy_lad

Richard Logue wrote: »

Many of our main roads (known then as T roads) were pretty narrow in places and it used to take us three hours to travel from Leixlip to Cashel.

From memory the N roads were the national primary roads and included dual carraigeway sections, then there were R roads, then T roads were just trunk roads. Then there were L or link roads which often had grass along the centre.

Hilly Bill

How many people are commuting between Cork and Dublin daily? Is there enough to make it a non stop service even if the fare was €40 return?

Solair

Hilly Bill wrote: »

How many people are commuting between Cork and Dublin daily? Is there enough to make it a non stop service even if the fare was €40 return?

I would doubt that there are that many. Both cities are big hubs in their own rights.

Mostly it's business trips between the two. Regular commuting to Dublin from Cork wouldn't be very practical or economically viable in terms of either train fares or fuel costs.

kc56

foggy_lad wrote: »

From memory the N roads were the national primary roads and included dual carraigeway sections, then there were R roads, then T roads were just trunk roads. Then there were L or link roads which often had grass along the centre.

The designations T and L were superceeded by the N, R and L roads;

By the 1950s an established system of road classification and numbering with Trunk Roads and Link Roads had long been developed. The present system of road classification and numbering began in 1977 when twenty-five National Primary roads and thirty-three National Secondary roads were designated.
Regional roads were first formally designated in 1994, although Regional road route-numbers began appearing on signposts in the 1980s. The Roads Act 1993 also classified all public roads which are not national or regional roads as local roads. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roads_in_Ireland

corktina

it doesnt follow though that the T roads became N and the L became R.

I beleive that the main road from Dublin to Cork for instance ran via Kilkenny and Clonmel for instance and the road from Thurles to Roscrea and points North was aa T road too where as the later N8 wasn't a T road. (IIRC)

Del2005

BenShermin wrote: »

I estimated that the whole train had less than 50 passengers on board.

How many of these where paying passengers v's DSP? Which is your point, make it cheaper and people will use it. If the majority of the people using it are DSP then it's a pointless service, this is for all train services as there's no point in the tax payer double subsidizing rail.

BenShermin wrote: »

I noticed the train arrived four minutes early into Thurles and a minute early into Portlaoise.

The train arrived into Heuston at 2247, eight minutes ahead of it's advertised arrival of 2255.

Did it depart from the stations on time or early? No point in arriving early if on time passengers miss it.

Richard Logue wrote: »

And whilst road deaths are mercifully on the decrease in Ireland, thanks mostly to the drink driving laws and speed limit enforcement, we haven't had any rail fatalities since 1991 according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_railway_accidents

People are still driving like lunatics, just drive by a primary school at start or end times. The RSA can spout all the PR crap they like, the opening of hundreds of km of motorway and better car design is what's reduced are road fatalities.
The enforcement of speed limits, which is mostly done on good M, N and R roads, isn't stopping people driving at inappropriate speed for the road conditions which is the cause of crashes.

Jamie2k9

There may have only been 50 people on that train - it's at a seriously off peak time in the wrong direction (2020 ex-Cork).

How many were on the train that it operated beforehand - the 1700 from Dublin?

There are always going to have to be some journeys that carry less people so as to get the sets back in position for the next day.

Can see you point but numbers have dropped since the 19.20 was interduced. It should not of resumed as there was no demand and the only reason may be because of stock movments however I suspect that they didn't want more trains in one direction. 19.20 started as a Mark 4 but then dropped to a 3 car ICR which has resulted in a lot of overcrowding on the 16.00 down, not sure if they have fixed the problem but it was like this a few weeks ago. I have taken both since the timetable started and at most 25-30 on both. The 19.20 was dropped because of low demand and when demand is the same if not lower its resumed.

LXFlyer

The reason the 1920 was reintroduced was to balance the set workings with the removal of the 0505, otherwise a "down" train would have to be cancelled.

There has to be a balanced number of trips.

In any public transport operation there will always be some workings that exist purely to get stock back to where they need to be the next morning, and these usually will be low usage.

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

The reason the 1920 was reintroduced was to balance the set workings with the removal of the 0505, otherwise a "down" train would have to be cancelled.

There has to be a balanced number of trips.

In any public transport operation there will always be some workings that exist purely to get stock back to where they need to be the next morning, and these usually will be low usage.

Yes but it has lead to very few savings apart from around 60 minutes for the few gatekeepers. My point is that they have replaced the 05.05 with another services that there is no dmenad for. No there does not have to be a balanced number of trips. Take saturdays when the 19.20 dosn't run. There are ways and means for the ICR set(s) to be taken back to Dublin on other services. Then there is the option of dropping a lightly used service from Dublin in the morning either. In the next timetable I expect the 19.20 will disappear if not a little before it.

LXFlyer

It doesn't run on Saturdays because the train operates an extra working on Sunday from Tralee to Dublin.

MGWR

BenShermin wrote: »

I haven't found time to post here in a long time, but I feel such a thread deserves merit.

Last Monday evening I had to use the train between Killarney and Dublin as the intercity buses between these two areas leave a lot to be desired. I took a train that connected into the 2020 Cork to Dublin train at Mallow. As somebody who is now a complete convert to GoBÉ I was pleasantly surprised with how good the train has become on this route.

I was very sceptical of the new timetable on the Cork to Dublin route that was introduced in January. I left my Killarney to Cork train at Mallow on a freezing cold rainy night and expected a long wait, to my amazement the Dublin train arrived two minutes early. Within minutes I was sitting in my reserved seat in the lovely warmth of the MK4 train.

It wasn't long before I was able to sit back and enjoy my few bottles of beer (something I can't do on the bus). The journey has become a lot smoother and they seem to have cut down slightly on the annoying automatic announcements. The toilets were spotless en-route and the cheerful train host kept a frequent presence throughout the journey. I estimated that the whole train had less than 50 passengers on board. I noticed the train arrived four minutes early into Thurles and a minute early into Portlaoise.

The train arrived into Heuston at 2247, eight minutes ahead of it's advertised arrival of 2255. Within minutes I was off the train and onto the luas, the 145 bus was also awaiting passengers. I was standing on OConnell Street at 2305 left shocked with how fast and efficient the whole service was! I had time for a quick pint in town before my last bus home.

Sitting over my pint I thought about the train journey verses a bus journey.

If there was a 2000hrs Aircoach, that bus would have arrived in Bachelor's Walk at 2300, I would have also been in O'Connell Street for 2305. Leaving the Aircoach bus stop in Cork at 2000 would have had me in Kent Station in time for the 2020 train. So both methods of travel now take the exact same amount of time IMO. (Never mind that take your seat 20mins before departure crap that IÉ come out with, nobody abides by that anyway!).

I also thought about the fact that the train was early into Mallow, Thurles and Portlaoise and if it was timetabled properly, then the train could have been quicker than the bus. Quick maths suggests to me that non-stop trains from Dublin to Cork could probably do the journey in 2hrs15 without acceleration/deceleration required to stop en-route. Such a time would definitely beat the bus.

So my question is, could the train once again become the main performer on this route? If IÉ brought fares down to €30 return on this route, and introduced non-stop trains, could that offer real competition to the bus?

I'll be using GoBÉ next week on the Dublin to Cork route, the only reason being is because it's cheaper than the train. If the train was €30 return I'd be back to it in a heartbeat after my positive experience on Monday. Would anybody else on the forum be tempted, and want other improvements do you think could be made to the train service?

With the Aircoach and GoBÉ threads on this forum it's time for this thread to offer healthy competition and debate .

The railway technology still could do with some modernisation. The year, after all, is 2013, and 125-mph diesel trains have been around for close to four decades after all. Tilting trains have been around for longer than that, as well (for going through curves faster).

Solair

MGWR wrote: »

The railway technology still could do with some modernisation. The year, after all, is 2013, and 125-mph diesel trains have been around for close to four decades after all. Tilting trains have been around for longer than that, as well (for going through curves faster).

- MK4 trains are 125mph capable with new locomotives.
- 22000s are 100mph capable as is. Perhaps they could be squeezed / tweaked up to 125mph by Hyundai with modifications to braking and drive systems, I'm not sure.

However, even at 100mph we should be able to reduce journey times. The network needs to be made 100mph capable.

I'd argue:

1) Upgrade Cork-Dublin to 125mph and get the new locomotives as they'd also probably massively reduce track wear if they're built to the correct spec which would overall reduce costs to the network. You could also probably get much more fuel-efficient locomotives than those 201s

I'm pretty sure that saving would justify the upgrade over time (especially in fuel and maintenance) even if you never achieved more than 100mph. It's probably not going to happen because the capital expenditure will be too high to justify now.

2) Upgrade the rest of the system to 100mph and try and make use of the top speeds of the 22000s.

3) Replace the enterprise with a version of the 22000s and get the line up to 100mph. It would do Dublin-Belfast really quickly. There's no real need for all this talk of HST2 on that line. It's very unlikely to happen.
It's only 102 miles!

You should be able to do Dublin-Belfast in say 1:40 with 22000s. The entire problem is the route i.e. sharing with commuter trains/DART, rather than the top speed of the rolling stock.

foggy_lad

No, because times have changed and the trains are not as important to travel/transport as they used to be.

Years ago in the trains heyday most people owned a car as they do today, but the big difference is the reliability of those cars! Most would not make it to Kildare from Dublin without overheating/grinding to a halt/wheel falling off etc never-mind trying to drive them to Waterford, Cork, Limerick, Galway or Tralee and back.

Back then people took the train as it was the only option for them, There was no buses which could match the train back then for speed and comfort, and although a very expensive way to travel it was ok as such journeys were only made very rarely and usually by a parent on their own rather than the whole family. If travelling to Cork it was considered an overnight event rather than just popping down in the morning and returning on the evening service as with delays and breakdowns the trains were not the most reliable, but at least you could get a pint!


Now we have the NCT and much more reliable cars with much better warranties and better servicing as almost all the backstreet garages have been shut down so cars are the cheapest and for most routes quickest way for more than one person to travel anywhere in the country! If a person is travelling alone than the train is still mostly the cheapest option but most chose to bring their car for the flexibility it offers at their destination and en route.



Just like the hundreds of branch/rural lines closed in the last hundred+ years Intercity rail and especially the Dublin/Cork route has had its day. I see it continuing on for a number of decades but being cut back more and more until it is about as frequent as the Waterford service.

MGWR

Solair wrote: »

• MK4 trains are 125 mph capable with new locomotives.
• 22000s are 100 mph capable as is. Perhaps they could be squeezed / tweaked up to 125 mph by Hyundai with modifications to braking and drive systems, I'm not sure.

However, even at 100 mph we should be able to reduce journey times. The network needs to be made 100 mph capable.

I'd argue:

1. Upgrade Cork-Dublin to 125mph and get the new locomotives as they'd also probably massively reduce track wear if they're built to the correct spec which would overall reduce costs to the network. You could also probably get much more fuel-efficient locomotives than those 201s. I'm pretty sure that saving would justify the upgrade over time (especially in fuel and maintenance) even if you never achieved more than 100mph. It's probably not going to happen because the capital expenditure will be too high to justify now.
   
2. Upgrade the rest of the system to 100 mph and try and make use of the top speeds of the 22000s.
   
3. Replace the enterprise with a version of the 22000s and get the line up to 100 mph. It would do Dublin-Belfast really quickly. There's no real need for all this talk of HST2 on that line. It's very unlikely to happen.
   It's only 102 miles!

You should be able to do Dublin-Belfast in say 1:40 with 22000s. The entire problem is the route i.e. sharing with commuter trains/DART, rather than the top speed of the rolling stock.

1:40 timing for Dublin-Belfast is an average speed of 62 mph. That's close to the current 60 mph with the one intermediate stop. Getting the top speed up to about 100 mph ought to improve the average speeds into the 70 mph or even 80 mph average speeds, even with the commuter train sharing; I'd reckon about the mid-70-mph range for the four-stop trains. (Over in Germany, the Berlin-Hamburg Railway is shared between long-distance express, commuter and freight trains, and the fastest ICE-T tilt trains manage an average speed of about 118 mph with their 143-mph top speeds.)

I would certainly like to see the effect of the quad-tracking between Heuston and Hazelhatch with 125-mph Dublin-Cork trains, myself. That railway is long overdue for getting out of the 1950s. (Then again, making the Mark 3s, which in their original form were 125-mph capable, into a 100-mph carriage is only to the national railway operator's shame.)

Solair

MGWR wrote: »

(Then again, making the Mark 3s, which in their original form were 125-mph capable, into a 100-mph carriage is only to the national railway operator's shame.)

They seemed to have become rather fixated on GM, multipurpose locomotives which was what dictated the speed.

If they'd had the foresight and the money, they'd have just bought a fleet of HSTs and upgraded the line as resources allowed, with gradual rollout of 125mph sections.

However, they didn't and they just repeated the error by even buying new 125mph stock (MK4) and hobbling it with GM locomotives instead of power cars AGAIN!

There's absolutely no reason why CAF couldn't have delivered a complete solution with modern power cars, probably using MTU engines or something.

They even got the spec wrong for the 201 locomotives as they're too heavy for a large part of the network and seem to wreck the lines due to lack of steering bogies.

Lighter power cars on the MK4 would at least mean the Cork-Dublin line would probably last a lot longer and remain in much better condition.

I also don't know why they specified 100mph on the 22000s. I'm sure 125mph design was probably quite achievable by Rotem/Hyundai.
They seem very high spec for 100mph max. I'd be very surprised if they're not capable of 125mph with perhaps a brake system upgrade?

Jamie2k9

Solair wrote: »

They seemed to have become rather fixated on GM, multipurpose locomotives which was what dictated the speed.

If they'd had the foresight and the money, they'd have just bought a fleet of HSTs and upgraded the line as resources allowed, with gradual rollout of 125mph sections.

However, they didn't and they just repeated the error by even buying new 125mph stock (MK4) and hobbling it with GM locomotives instead of power cars AGAIN!

There's absolutely no reason why CAF couldn't have delivered a complete solution with modern power cars, probably using MTU engines or something.

This is CAF we are talking about I don't know who is worse them or Irish Rail TBH. New loco were planned to be purched in 2008 but were not becaose of funding and all that.

Solair

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

This is CAF we are talking about I don't know who is worse them or Irish Rail TBH. New loco were planned to be purched in 2008 but were not becaose of funding and all that.

They seem to build decent stuff for the Spanish and other networks around the world. Can't really see what went wrong over here.

I can't understand why they didn't just purchase a CAF or any other 200km/h DMU set. They exist and are quite nice.

Can't see anything wrong with CAF, they even built a 350km/h setup for the AVE network : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAF_Oaris

To me it looks like CAF was asked by Irish Rail to build what basically amounted to a modern replica of BREL's 1970s trains. When they'd 'off the shelf' intercity solutions that were far more developed and slick!

You get what you pay for and ask for from these companies if you micromanage the design and spec like that.

I'd argue it was a decision that resulted in a huge lost opportunity to have put something very slick onto the Cork Dublin line with the prospect of high speed in the future all because they were fixated on loco-hauling the damn thing!

Jamie2k9

Solair wrote: »

They seem to build decent stuff for the Spanish and other networks around the world. Can't really see what went wrong over here.

I can't understand why they didn't just purchase a CAF 200km/h DMU set. They exist and are quite nice.

CAF had to pick up the bill for a rebuild of Mark4's because of swaying, electrical connections problmes with caused computers onboard, PA system, seat reservation, external doors to have problems as well as internal partition doors, tanks for WC to small. That was only around 2010 when it should of being years before.

CAF make such a mess of the Mark4's, yes Irish Rail partly to blame but what CAF produced was sub standrad work.

I hope in future any fleet renewal will be build by Hyundai Rotem as they did a great job on the 22000.

Solair

Sounds rather ridiculously bad.

I just don't understand though how IE has such bad luck with this stuff. The couple of small Alstom DART / Commuter fleets they ordered seemed to be complete disasters too.

Jamie2k9

Solair wrote: »

Sounds rather ridiculously bad.

I just don't understand though how IE has such bad luck with this stuff. The couple of small Alstom DART / Commuter fleets they ordered seemed to be complete disasters too.

Didn't CAF build most of the commuter fleets as well...

Just good that IE made CAF pick up the bill for the Mark4 rebuild.

devnull

Solair wrote: »

I just don't understand though how IE has such bad luck with this stuff. The couple of small Alstom DART / Commuter fleets they ordered seemed to be complete disasters too.

To be fair the Alstom issue cannot really be levied at Irish Rail since at around the same time Alstom were building a lot of sub standard classes of train in the UK as well, some of which the kinks have still not been ironed out properly either.

Several companies have withdrawn the Alstom Juniper and Coradia models of Alstom units in the UK or scaled back their use of them in despite their relatively young age, with some being replaced by much older trains, but in the last few years due to a shortage of rolling stock they've been reinstated by several operators.

Jamie2k9

devnull wrote: »

To be fair the Alstom issue cannot really be levied at Irish Rail since at around the same time Alstom were building a lot of sub standard classes of train in the UK as well, some of which the kinks have still not been ironed out properly either.

Several companies have withdrawn the Alstom Juniper and Coradia models of Alstom units in the UK or scaled back their use of them despite their relatively young age, but in the last few years due to a shortage of rolling stock they've been reinstated by several operators.

Agree going off topic an possibly should be on a new thread but how long more will IE get out of the current DART fleet before it needs to be replaced, most of it has to be 30+ years at this stage?

Solair

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Agree going off topic an possibly should be on a new thread but how long more will IE get out of the current DART fleet before it needs to be replaced, most of it has to be 30+ years at this stage?

The first part of the fleet was introduced in 1984 and completely refurbished a few years ago. So, it's probably got a long life ahead of it yet.
Rest of the fleet's from 2000 - 2004, so have at least 35 years left in them yet!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Area_Rapid_Transit#Current_Fleet

The oldest fleet is 29 years old (with massive refurbishment carried out by Siemens around 2007/2008.)

There's stock on the London Underground that's over 43 years old, so I'd say the DART has a few more years to go yet!