Could the train once again be the King of the Dublin/Cork route?

Richard Logue · 17-04-2013 11:14pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

Firstly, where I live has nothing to do with the discussion. Secondly, I don't recall ever saying I lived in Spain. Thirdly, Spain is a large country with a huge population that can justify IC rail travel based on population density as a starter. In my opinion your post is an attempt to discredit the point Im making. If you are pro rail and believe that the network in Ireland has a future, then articulate an answer without trying to discredit me. Its not about me, its about my opinion and no matter where I am in the world, the opinion stands and only the opinion is open to correction/debate etc.

I've now answered your post in my own edited post. But wherever you are it strikes me that you're far enough away not to be affected by the destruction of our railways that you seek. Although I'm in London I am back in Ireland on a monthly basis and use Inter City railways in Ireland regularly. (Adds and I pay my way fully - no discounts or freebies for me)

Con Logue · 17-04-2013 11:15pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

Firstly, where I live has nothing to do with the discussion. Secondly, I don't recall ever saying I lived in Spain. Thirdly, Spain is a large country with a huge population that can justify IC rail travel based on population density as a starter. In my opinion your post is an attempt to discredit the point Im making. If you are pro rail and believe that the network in Ireland has a future, then articulate an answer without trying to discredit me. Its not about me, its about my opinion and no matter where I am in the world, the opinion stands and only the opinion is open to correction/debate etc.

Opinions are subjective and therefore do not have an objective existence. So therefore no opinion has an independent and verifiable existence.

In other words no-one is obliged to argue from anyone else's grounds other than their own. You have an opinion and it is a fallacy to assume that arguing a contrary point of view from the grounds you have laid out is going to automatically happen.

Night Night.

Grandeeod · 17-04-2013 11:24pm

Karsini wrote: »

I'd probably be ridiculed if I gave my reasons so I'll keep out of this one.

Don't feel that way. Express your opinion. I would love to see the rail network prosper in Ireland. However I am prepared to deal with a worst case scenario based on sound reasoning and not an anti rail bias, borne out of vested interests and a general, "we don't care about it anyway" attitude. I genuinely believe that we are now in an era where a lot of the rail network could conceivably be closed over the next few years. I believe that CIE have a blueprint since the late 70s to close a lot of routes, one of which has gone in the last few years. They are currently struggling with the motorway impact. In European terms we saw massive leaps in rail speeds and services to combat the motorway impact, but Ireland is different geographically and financially.

Grandeeod · 17-04-2013 11:29pm

Con Logue wrote: »

Opinions are subjective and therefore do not have an objective existence. So therefore no opinion has an independent and verifiable existence.

In other words no-one is obliged to argue from anyone else's grounds other than their own. You have an opinion and it is a fallacy to assume that arguing a contrary point of view from the grounds you have laid out is going to automatically happen.

Night Night.

Attack the post and not the poster seems to be the way things happen around here, therefore pop away at my opinion, no probs, but where I live has nothing to do with it and I'm entitled to point that out.

Richard Logue · 17-04-2013 11:31pm

In my opinion Irish Rail needs to do some key things if they are to invest for the long term future of the railway network:

1: Build a heavy rail line to Dublin Airport and run most Inter City services from there. South and West services should be connected by a spur to the Drumcondra-Phoenix Park tunnel until money is found for the Interconnector

2: Extend passing loops or even double the Portarlington-Galway line

3: Consider future electrification of the Dublin-Cork, Portarlington-Galway lines and the Belfast line. Diesel fuel is becoming increasingly expensive and IE may find that electrification is ultimately cheaper.

All these will take money that we have not got right now, however the Airport line would be a relatively quick win and would revolutionise Inter City rail transport. Tourists, locals and Business visitors would be able to travel directly to Cork, Galway, Kerry and the North from the Airport.

17-04-2013 11:32pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

Don't feel that way. Express your opinion. I would love to see the rail network prosper in Ireland. However I am prepared to deal with a worst case scenario based on sound reasoning and not an anti rail bias, borne out of vested interests and a general, "we don't care about it anyway" attitude. I genuinely believe that we are now in an era where a lot of the rail network could conceivably be closed over the next few years. I believe that CIE have a blueprint since the late 70s to close a lot of routes, one of which has gone in the last few years. They are currently struggling with the motorway impact. In European terms we saw massive leaps in rail speeds and services to combat the motorway impact, but Ireland is different geographically and financially.

Well they're mostly personal reasons so probably not relevant from a "why should the railways be left running just for you?" point of view.

The main one is that I'm a regular traveller to Tralee. At present, rail is still the faster option as there's no express services down that way. You'd be looking at anything up to 6 hours on a bus compared to 4 by rail. If the railway line to Tralee was closed I'd have to consider flying to Farranfore instead.

Secondly I've been sick on long distance bus travel but I always feel fine when travelling by rail. It (literally) left a bad taste in my mouth re bus travel. I can feel very claustrophobic on buses too.

The last one is something I only just realised recently. I'll be heading to Kerry again next month and intend to take my bike with me. I'm not aware of any bus service that would accommodate one. I know Bus Éireann certainly don't.

Grandeeod · 17-04-2013 11:36pm

Richard Logue wrote: »

I've now answered your post in my own edited post. But wherever you are it strikes me that you're far enough away not to be affected by the destruction of our railways that you seek. Although I'm in London I am back in Ireland on a monthly basis and use Inter City railways in Ireland regularly. (Adds and I pay my way fully - no discounts or freebies for me)

I am not seeking a destruction of our railways. I am merely presenting a case, a possibility,a necessity or inevitability. I was hoping we could discuss it. I have no say in the realization of it, but I am interested in the opinions of pro rail, anti rail and those that couldn't really care less.

Richard Logue · 17-04-2013 11:45pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

I am not seeking a destruction of our railways. I am merely presenting a case, a possibility,a necessity or inevitability. I was hoping we could discuss it. I have no say in the realization of it, but I am interested in the opinions of pro rail, anti rail and those that couldn't really care less.

I was thinking there about the ever increasing cost of fuel that means that for me here in London it costs €80 to fill up my car. Now I can get 600km on a full tank but for me to drive on my own a long distance is not cost effective. It's cheaper for me to travel by train here in the UK and in Ireland. It's a different story with my full compliment of wife, kids and cat and daughter's shoes...!

All joking aside, it is becoming increasingly more and more expensive to drive long distances and the railways in Ireland do offer that alternative. Of course there are bus purists and train haters who don't want that option but the train does offer a bit of comfort, food of sorts and a toilet.

Looking ahead 10 years we may have got ourselves out of a recession but fuel prices may still be spiralling upwards - we must in my opinion maintain and ultimately extend (in the right places) the rail network to anticipate future demand. Closing lines is in my opinion short term thinking that will do more harm than good.

foggy_lad · 17-04-2013 11:55pm

Richard Logue wrote: »

In my opinion Irish Rail needs to do some key things if they are to invest for the long term future of the railway network:

1: Build a heavy rail line to Dublin Airport and run most Inter City services from there. South and West services should be connected by a spur to the Drumcondra-Phoenix Park tunnel until money is found for the Interconnector

2: Extend passing loops or even double the Portarlington-Galway line

3: Consider future electrification of the Dublin-Cork, Portarlington-Galway lines and the Belfast line. Diesel fuel is becoming increasingly expensive and IE may find that electrification is ultimately cheaper.

All these will take money that we have not got right now, however the Airport line would be a relatively quick win and would revolutionise Inter City rail transport. Tourists, locals and Business visitors would be able to travel directly to Cork, Galway, Kerry and the North from the Airport.

By adding about two hours to already very slow intercity services. there is no capacity for traffic from an airport spur through the city and out to Heuston. Trains coming through the park tunnel heading west/southwest/southeast have to be reversed back into Heuston for passengers there which would take too long.

Richard Logue · 17-04-2013 11:59pm

Platform 10 at Heuston leads to the tunnel. No need for reversing.

And where are you getting two hours extra from? It used to take 40 minutes to Dun Laoghaire (a roughly similar distance) via the tunnel when the boat trains ran up until the early 80s. Existing IC services would get to Heuston from the South and West in the same time.

end of the road · 18-04-2013 12:02am

Richard Logue wrote: »

where are you getting two hours extra from?

he just likes to pluck things out of thin air, if he gives a number, go for half that.

Richard Logue wrote: »

It used to take 40 minutes to Dun Laoghaire (a roughly similar distance) via the tunnel when the boat trains ran up until the early 80s. Existing IC services would get to Heuston from the South and West in the same time.

in fairness their were less trains back when those boat trains ran, these days i'd say an hour because of dart and the amount of commuter trains.

foggy_lad · 18-04-2013 12:06am

Richard Logue wrote: »

Platform 10 at Heuston leads to the tunnel. No need for reversing.

And where are you getting two hours extra from? It used to take 40 minutes to Dun Laoghaire (a roughly similar distance) via the tunnel when the boat trains ran up until the early 80s. Existing IC services would get to Heuston from the South and West in the same time.

Platform 10 is not in use because it is not in the main station and is way too far to expect intercity passengers to walk with heavy cases, elderly relatives screaming babies etc. start using Platform 10 for intercity from Heuston and you may as well order the lifting train now.

even 40 minutes extra is too long especially with the 10 minute walk to a very miserable and wide open platform 10 especially when the buses get you to the city centre and then the airport in the same time as you plan getting trains to the city centre.

Richard Logue · 18-04-2013 12:06am

I would expect that if there ever comes a time when the Phoenix Park tunnel were used to its potential we would need a Platform 11 (!) to cater for the traffic going in and out of the tunnel.

Certainly if money were found to build a spur to the Airport the same project would remodel Heuston as necessary.

Richard Logue · 18-04-2013 12:09am

foggy_lad wrote: »

Platform 10 is not in use because it is not in the main station and is way too far to expect intercity passengers to walk with heavy cases, elderly relatives screaming babies etc. start using Platform 10 for intercity from Heuston and you may as well order the lifting train now.

even 40 minutes extra is too long especially with the 10 minute walk to a very miserable and wide open platform 10 especially when the buses get you to the city centre and then the airport in the same time as you plan getting trains to the city centre.

Sorry but I find it hard to take your straw man arguments seriously. If ever there came a time to reroute trains via the tunnel to allow airport traffic any railway project worth its salt would find the right way to manage the passenger footfall.

foggy_lad · 18-04-2013 12:10am

Richard Logue wrote: »

I would expect that if there ever comes a time when the Phoenix Park tunnel were used to its potential we would need a Platform 11 (!) to cater for the traffic going in and out of the tunnel.

Certainly if money were found to build a spur to the Airport the same project would remodel Heuston as necessary.

Maybe Veolia could open a Luas spur to the faraway platform 10 as part of the plan as it is certainly farther than Connolly station is from Busaras.

18-04-2013 12:11am

foggy_lad wrote: »

Platform 10 is not in use because it is not in the main station and is way too far to expect intercity passengers to walk with heavy cases, elderly relatives screaming babies etc. start using Platform 10 for intercity from Heuston and you may as well order the lifting train now.

Airports can manage it, they just use travelators. No reason why they couldn't be used in railway stations.

John Dough · 18-04-2013 12:28am

The nasty remark about free travel passes is not warranted ,trains buses etc run on demand and obviously there is no demand for late night trains BE could do withsome extra services from Portlaoise to Dublin early in the mornings nothing until 8am when Dublin. Bus co have hourly services all night very handy for the early airport flight or if you start at 7am in the city.
Overall though have to say with our population IE and BE do a good job and the newer intercity trains are lovely (not the Cork one smelly toilets no sockets and dirty outside worn out seats poor with fi etc.) Well done CIE!!

Solair · 18-04-2013 6:36am

The MK4 fleet definitely needs sockets and a good deep clean and reupholstering.

The choice of carpets and fabrics was quite poor. They've worn out very fast and the carpets are too lightly coloured and show up loads of stains

Con Logue · 18-04-2013 8:22am

Grandeeod wrote: »

Attack the post and not the poster seems to be the way things happen around here, therefore pop away at my opinion, no probs, but where I live has nothing to do with it and I'm entitled to point that out.

Haven't said anything in my post about where you live.

bk · 18-04-2013 8:40am

Richard Logue, I believe you overestimate the impact that closing down the intercity lines would have.

While I'm not suggesting for a moment that we actually do that, it wouldn't be a major deal if it did happen.

Prior to GoBE cutting their schedule in half, I previously estimated that the new GoBE and Aircoach services already have enough capacity to carry all of the daily Irish Rail passengers on the Cork to Dublin route.

Now you are partly correct, there probably wouldn't be enough capacity at peak time and some new coaches would be needed, but not as many as you might think. Remember they could almost double their capacity by switching to Double Decker coaches.

Yes there would also be more cars on our motorways, but again our motorways were way over specced and it would easily be able to handle the extra numbers with no noticeable reduction in journey times or increase in congestion.

Match days or concerts wouldn't be too big a deal either. Again many (if not most) people already go to such events by private hire coach buses anyway. You would just need a few more of them.

There would be issues serving places like Tralee and Mallow, which currently have no direct non stop service coach services. It would certainly be awful for them to go from a 4 hour train journey to a 6 hour bus journey. But if trains no longer served these areas, then it would make new direct non stop bus services to these places much more feasible.

If you argument is the environment or the high price of fuel, then that is more of an argument for bus coach then train.

Bus coaches are more fuel efficient (and thus less polluting) then diesel trains.

Bus coaches tickets are also much cheaper then train tickets.

If you are arguing that rising oil prices will impact buses, remember that it will impact diesel trains more as they use more fuel per passenger then buses.

Now again I'm not saying we should do this, just that it is true that if the intercity rail network was closed down, it wouldn't have a big impact.

Karsini, most of the private bus companies will take your bike for free as long as there is enough space (there almost always is). Not sure what BE's policy is, but I'd guess if you asked the driver nicely, he would allow it assuming enough space.

Ironically on the Cork route, the ticket for the bike on the train is almost as high as an adult ticket on the bus!!

corktina · 18-04-2013 8:41am

how many people coming from the airport actually travel from Heuston by train AS A PROPORTION of the throughput of the Airport ?

In other words, is there actually a demand for intercity services on the lines south and west or is the demand actually greater in other directions? My opinion is that the greatest part of the demand from the Airport would in fact be travel to the City and the various routes, rail and bus, urban and long distance, and best served by buses as now to the City Centre at no extra cost or if we had any money a LUAS-type line.

Con Logue · 18-04-2013 9:46am

Just for fun, here's a list that I've sourced of countries without rail systems:

Iceland
Greenland
Andorra
Malta
Liechtenstein
San Marino

Equatorial Guinea
Guinea Bissau
Chad
Central African Republic
Rwanda
Burundi
Somalia

Yemen
Oman
Qatar
Bahrain
Kuwait
Nepal
Bhutan

Any more of your knowledge, please add

That's a remarkable league of countries for us to aspire to be part of.. Often wondered why John Teeling, Kevin Myers and Sean Barrett advocated ripping up the railways and popularised the idea among the Poujadiste classes in Ireland, as if they were some kind of unique drain on the public purse..

bk · 18-04-2013 9:55am

Con non of us is suggesting Ireland shouldn't have railways. That is a strawman argument you are constructing there.

Dart, Luas and commuter rail around Dublin are absolutely vital for the health of our economy.

Commuter rail around Cork also seems to work well and maybe around Limerick and Galway.

What is definitely in question are branch lines and to a lesser extent intercity services.

TINA1984 · 18-04-2013 9:56am

bk wrote: »

Richard Logue, I believe you overestimate the impact that closing down the intercity lines would have.....

While I'm not suggesting for a moment that we actually do that, it wouldn't be a major deal if it did happen.....

~10m intercity journies displaced from rail to private car to public transport will be ''a major deal'' and noticeable to all.

bk wrote: »

Yes there would also be more cars on our motorways, but again our motorways were way over specced and it would easily be able to handle the extra numbers with no noticeable reduction in journey times or increase in congestion.

The Cork - Dublin motorway, right now, still has a tendency to be clogged up at either end at peak times. Any economic growth will almost certainly increase these tailbacks and in the absence of the Newlands X & Dunkettle upgrades, IC rail is still a desirable option timewise.

With a modest investment in the removal of the remaining level-crossings and other bits n' pieces on the Cork - Dublin line, timings on the line will come down and easily match and beat city centre to city centre driving time.

Note that a single modest investment in upgrading the line, as proposed by IR several years ago, would deliver improved journey times to all the major urban area's in the south & west. The equivalent investment might build a small bypass or a stretch of a primary route whose AADTs would be dwarfed by passenger numbers on the Cork line as is.

bk wrote: »

If you argument is the environment or the high price of fuel, then that is more of an argument for bus coach then train.

Bus coaches are more fuel efficient (and thus less polluting) then diesel trains.

Bus coaches tickets are also much cheaper then train tickets.

If you are arguing that rising oil prices will impact buses, remember that it will impact diesel trains more as they use more fuel per passenger then buses.

You've made this point multiple times and continue to do so, despite it being repeatedly pointed out to you that its implausible. Remember most of the environmental damage caused by a motor vehicle occurs during its construction.

So by you proposing that IC rail is eliminated, we're scrapping a large % of IR's fleet. Right there is terrible environmental damage in scrapping a fleet a decade old. Maybe IR will luck out and manage to sell it, maybe not.

Then when you factor the environmental cost of those ~10m journies previously taken by rail are instead taken by private car (more likely) or bus (less likely), the cumulative damage - more cars and buses purchased - to the environment is far, far greater then as things stand now with IC rail in place.

Solair · 18-04-2013 9:58am

I don't think anyone's really suggesting just closing the railway network. It wouldn't make a whole lot of sense, especially in the light of the very significant level of capital investment that went in and the fact that it's in the best state it's been in for decades.

We need to be looking at forward planning for things like electrification of all commuter rail and probably Cork-Dublin. In fact, those are the types of things we should have been slowing plugging away at for decades. If we'd been adding 20-30km/year we'd have had a decent electric rail network by now.

It's one way that we could be using all that wind power / renewables to cut our costs and CO2 output.

----

We do need to look rationally at what railway lines are being used and if busses are a better alternative e.g. in areas with lots of scattered development / small towns and no big hubs.

For example, would it make more sense to spend a lot of money on a subsidised bus network in the Northwest / Sligo / North Leitrim instead of having the train?

I'm not talking about replacing it with a heap of rubbish old style coaches, but maybe actually put some really good road-transport services in place that might actually serve smaller villages/towns more frequently and use the spare cash to improve the local services.

I think we need to just be very rational about stuff like this. Trains have their advantages, e.g. if you need to move a lot of people in bulk along a dense commuter route (E.g. Dundalk/Drogheda/Kildare/Potentially Midleton etc)
I just wonder about these long-distance trains to places that have really low density when you've limited funding available for services that might actually improve people's lives.

I remember spending some time in Manorhamilton in Leitrim and there was an absolutely pathetic bus service. You basically couldn't work in Sligo and commute there even though the distance is quite small and it's obviously the nearest town.

Meanwhile, there were people campaigning endlessly about train services to Sligo which were OK and anytime I was on them were really empty and they really weren't faster than a bus.

You'd just wonder if perhaps a bus-based service in that part of Ireland would make more sense than rail, if the rail's costing a lot of money in terms of subsidies to keep lines maintained etc.

I'd rather just see a really good public transport system and don't particularly care whether that means the vehicles run on road or rails, just as long as it makes sense!

lucernarian · 18-04-2013 10:30am

bk wrote: »

Con non of us is suggesting Ireland shouldn't have railways. That is a strawman argument you are constructing there.

Dart, Luas and commuter rail around Dublin are absolutely vital for the health of our economy.

Commuter rail around Cork also seems to work well and maybe around Limerick and Galway.

What is definitely in question are branch lines and to a lesser extent intercity services.

Although I think that rail travel from Cork to Dublin via Belfast has a long-term future with no other confounding factors coming into play, the talk of Ireland giving up all passenger rail travel is indeed nothing more than a straw man.

I don't know why the viability of rail travel between the three largest cities is being questioned though. Much of the routes involved would remain for commuter travel anyway. Of the lines between Belfast and Cork, the part between Newry and Drogheda (at a push) and then Portlaoise and Mallow (and lets ignore the impact on Limerick) could be closed off for instance. I can't fathom a situation where that would happen. The viability of commuter rail and Intercity rail will remain closely connected for the forseeable future I think.

Jamie2k9 · 18-04-2013 10:36am

With a modest investment in the removal of the remaining level-crossings and other bits n' pieces on the Cork - Dublin line, timings on the line will come down and easily match and beat city centre to city centre driving time.

Removing level corssings will make no differeancs as they as trains operate at top speed through them.

bk · 18-04-2013 10:57am

Solair wrote: »

I'd rather just see a really good public transport system and don't particularly care whether that means the vehicles run on road or rails, just as long as it makes sense!

This 100 times over. I really couldn't care less if it is rail or bus or teleporter, as long as we have a good quality affordable public transport system that makes sense.

TINA1984 wrote: »

~10m intercity journies displaced from rail to private car to public transport will be ''a major deal'' and noticeable to all.

Let me put that in context for you. Until GoBE reduced their schedule to bi-hourly a few weeks, ago, the combined capacity of the Aircoach and GoBE service to Cork is over 1,241,000 per year. And these are services that didn't exist a year ago.

The capacity of GoBus and Citylink to Galway 1.6 million per year.

The numbers for Limerick and Belfast are similar.

And those numbers are all based on 50 passenger single deckers. Upgrade them to double deckers and you double those numbers again.

If intercity rail was closed down (and I'm not saying it should) the existing bus services would be able to deal with the demand by upgrading from a single decker every hour to two double deckers per hour (every 30 minutes).

So really it isn't as bad as you make it out to be.

TINA1984 wrote: »

The Cork - Dublin motorway, right now, still has a tendency to be clogged up at either end at peak times. Any economic growth will almost certainly increase these tailbacks and in the absence of the Newlands X & Dunkettle upgrades, IC rail is still a desirable option timewise.

Not in my experience, you can do Cork to Dublin by car even at peak times in about 2 hours 15 minutes to 2 hours 30 minutes, depending on where you are going to and from.

BTW the Newlands X upgrade is to start in a few months, removing even this bottlekneck.

TINA1984 wrote: »

With a modest investment in the removal of the remaining level-crossings and other bits n' pieces on the Cork - Dublin line, timings on the line will come down and easily match and beat city centre to city centre driving time.

Note that a single modest investment in upgrading the line, as proposed by IR several years ago, would deliver improved journey times to all the major urban area's in the south & west. The equivalent investment might build a small bypass or a stretch of a primary route whose AADTs would be dwarfed by passenger numbers on the Cork line as is.

Modest!! Irish Rail were looking for 250 million for a mere 20 minute speed up on the Cork line. Ironically after the government turned it down, IR still somehow found the money to do most of the work anyway!

TINA1984 wrote: »

You've made this point multiple times and continue to do so, despite it being repeatedly pointed out to you that its implausible. Remember most of the environmental damage caused by a motor vehicle occurs during its construction.

A strawman argument, the motorways have already been built and exist and therefore the environmental impact already suffered. So now it is up to us to make the most of their existence.

bk · 18-04-2013 11:01am

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I don't know why the viability of rail travel between the three largest cities is being questioned though. Much of the routes involved would remain for commuter travel anyway. Of the lines between Belfast and Cork, the part between Newry and Drogheda (at a push) and then Portlaoise and Mallow (and lets ignore the impact on Limerick) could be closed off for instance. I can't fathom a situation where that would happen. The viability of commuter rail and Intercity rail will remain closely connected for the forseeable future I think.

I agree, I don't think any of us is seriously suggesting that the main intercity routes be closed down.

For the sake of discussion, I'm just challenging the point raised that if intercity rail was shut down, that it would have a major economic impact. It really wouldn't.

I would however question any major new investment in Intercity rail. I think what IR needs to focus on now is making the most of what we have and focus on reducing their cost base, so that they can make intercity rail travel cheaper and thus more competitive.

corktina · 18-04-2013 11:21am

Inter City rail is my first choice for comfort and even speed , however I don't use it because of the cost. I can fly to London cheaper than I can take the train to Dublin.

Areas which would need addressing before I would use the train are reserved seating enforcement and off peak and advance booking price reductions.

I'm not a fan of the Mk4s but they are acceptable with a bit more effort on caring for them and the ICRs are fine.

As for speed improvements, well , we haven't the money and with our short journeys I don't think it's top priority to reduce journey times. 2 hours Dublin to Mallow is quite acceptable to me.

bk · 18-04-2013 11:33am

Very good summary of the situation corktina, price and booking flexibility is by far the biggest problem.

IR needs to bring it's prices down (Cork to Dublin single max €20 with no extra booking fees etc. and even better €15).

Of course with IR's subsidies being cut and falling passenger numbers, they will need to fouc on reducing their internal cost structures in order to make this happen.

corktina · 18-04-2013 12:04pm

fill the trains when they are empty at whatever price you can get seems a good move to me.

Richard Logue · 18-04-2013 12:24pm

corktina wrote: »

how many people coming from the airport actually travel from Heuston by train AS A PROPORTION of the throughput of the Airport ?

In other words, is there actually a demand for intercity services on the lines south and west or is the demand actually greater in other directions? My opinion is that the greatest part of the demand from the Airport would in fact be travel to the City and the various routes, rail and bus, urban and long distance, and best served by buses as now to the City Centre at no extra cost or if we had any money a LUAS-type line.

Bus Eireann and other long distance operators like Aircoach already use Dublin Airport as either a terminus or a major staging point for journeys around the country. It makes sense to me at least to have a railway service available at the biggest transport hub and entry point in the country.

Solair · 18-04-2013 12:29pm

I wonder how long the MK4s will actually last...
I hope they're not going to be another disastrous purchase that will ultimately end up being replaced by 22000s.

Although, that being said, they're probably approaching the stage that they'll need a minor refurbishment soon enough.

Triangla · 18-04-2013 12:37pm

I usually get the train when my car is out of action but I got GoBus on Monday night to get from Cork city to Dublin.

The train was €43.99, GoBus was €12. It took 25 mins longer for the bus but I saved €30.

My previous issue with buses was lack of toilet, (it should be illegal to have intercity buses without toilet facilities IMHO) but GoBus had one.

Awesome service.

BenShermin · 18-04-2013 12:54pm

Del2005 wrote: »

How many of these where paying passengers v's DSP? Which is your point, make it cheaper and people will use it. If the majority of the people using it are DSP then it's a pointless service, this is for all train services as there's no point in the tax payer double subsidizing rail.

No point here really, I was just giving my own estimate as to how many pax were on board. For the record the majority of passengers looked youthful so I doubt they were using DSFA free travel.

Del2005 wrote: »

Did it depart from the stations on time or early? No point in arriving early if on time passengers miss it.

The train waited at all intermediate stops until the scheduled departure time. I've never been on a train service in Europe that didn't do this.

Del2005 wrote: »

People are still driving like lunatics, just drive by a primary school at start or end times. The RSA can spout all the PR crap they like, the opening of hundreds of km of motorway and better car design is what's reduced are road fatalities.

Never a truer word spoken.

Victor · 18-04-2013 12:55pm

Richard Logue wrote: »

Foggy who has thanked your post would not be able to deliver his goods sold on adverts for free by train and would have to get the bus everywhere too?

Stop the bullying and off-topic posting.

Moderator

TINA1984 · 18-04-2013 1:39pm

bk wrote: »

T

Let me put that in context for you. Until GoBE reduced their schedule to bi-hourly a few weeks, ago, the combined capacity of the Aircoach and GoBE service to Cork is over 1,241,000 per year. And these are services that didn't exist a year ago.

The capacity of GoBus and Citylink to Galway 1.6 million per year.

The numbers for Limerick and Belfast are similar.

And those numbers are all based on 50 passenger single deckers. Upgrade them to double deckers and you double those numbers again.

If intercity rail was closed down (and I'm not saying it should) the existing bus services would be able to deal with the demand by upgrading from a single decker every hour to two double deckers per hour (every 30 minutes).

So really it isn't as bad as you make it out to be.

You're skirting over the crux of my point, which is that a significant investment will be required for that "upgrade" you speak of. That means more buses, more cars which is more environmentally unfriendly, not less so then you originally claimed.

bk wrote: »

TNot in my experience, you can do Cork to Dublin by car even at peak times in about 2 hours 15 minutes to 2 hours 30 minutes, depending on where you are going to and from.

BTW the Newlands X upgrade is to start in a few months, removing even this bottlekneck.

That certainly doesn't tally with my experience which compromises attending League of Ireland football grounds across the Dublin area on a near bi-weekly basis from Cork. Off peak the times you mention are certainly achievable. On peak however train + bus/LUAS easily beat driving.

Newlands X might be on its way but Dunkettle isn't.

bk wrote: »

Modest!! Irish Rail were looking for 250 million for a mere 20 minute speed up on the Cork line. Ironically after the government turned it down, IR still somehow found the money to do most of the work anyway!

It was actually €175m. IR didn't magic up any money, the level-crossings are still there.

To put that into context, thats the price of less then 2 small town bypasses.

For the same money for those bypasses you can have radically improved journey times from Dublin to all of the state's main urban area's.

bk wrote: »

A strawman argument, the motorways have already been built and exist and therefore the environmental impact already suffered. So now it is up to us to make the most of their existence.

Its not a strawman argument to point out that most of the pollution from a car or bus in its lifetime occurs when it is being constructed? Do you get that? my point had nothing to do with the environmental cost of constructing motorways, it had to do with with the increase in pollution which would occur when you push people off the railways and onto cars and buses.

bk · 18-04-2013 1:56pm

TINA1984 wrote: »

You're skirting over the crux of my point, which is that a significant investment will be required for that "upgrade" you speak of. That means more buses, more cars which is more environmentally unfriendly, not less so then you originally claimed.

No skirting, more buses that will use less fuel per passenger then the existing trains do, so less emissions per passenger, simple.

TINA1984 wrote: »

Its not a strawman argument to point out that most of the pollution from a car or bus in its lifetime occurs when it is being constructed? Do you get that? my point had nothing to do with the environmental cost of constructing motorways, it had to do with with the increase in pollution which would occur when you push people off the railways and onto cars and buses.

It is a strawman argument because again the motorways already exist, thus most of the pollution you speak of has already been produced. This point would only be valid before the motorways were built.

Richard Logue · 18-04-2013 2:08pm

bk wrote: »

No skirting, more buses that will use less fuel per passenger then the existing trains do, so less emissions per passenger, simple.

It is a strawman argument because again the motorways already exist, thus most of the pollution you speak of has already been produced. This point would only be valid before the motorways were built.

We could go around in circles discussing whether an argument is a straw man or not. Your own argument here about ending all IC rail is a pretty big straw man too, if not the biggest.

TINA1984 · 18-04-2013 3:10pm

bk wrote: »

No skirting, more buses that will use less fuel per passenger then the existing trains do, so less emissions per passenger, simple.

That's presuming most of the 10m transition from train to bus. Seeing as demand remains for rail in spite of bus competition we can presume that the bus, for whatever reason, isn't appealing to these 10m.

As such its reasonable to suggest that a significant portion of those 10m will instead drive their car instead of taking the bus. Those extra millions of journies in single occupant car, as well as the extra buses required, will more then negate any supposed reducing environmental costs stemming from scrapping the railways.

bk wrote: »

It is a strawman argument because again the motorways already exist, thus most of the pollution you speak of has already been produced. This point would only be valid before the motorways were built.

You're the one who's brought up the environmental costs of motorway construction, something I haven't touched upon myself.

To roll with your straw based point however, It is an indisputable fact that most of the pollution which a car will emit in its lifetime occurs when it is being built. By scrapping the IC railways you are pushing people into cars and car-dependancy.

I'm sure an enterprising transport economist will be able to fix up a spreadsheet or chart showing the impact the shutting of the IC railways would have on new car and bus sales. Suffice to say, presenting an argument that shutting the railways and shunting people into cars is more environmentally friendly then keeping the IC railways open is one of the more novel arguments presented on these hallow forums.

BenShermin · 18-04-2013 4:06pm

I think BK has hit the nail on the head with his posting earlier on.

Basically Iarnród Éireann needs to stop thinking that it's running a French/German/British style network. It doesn't run a high speed intercity network and it needs to stop charging high speed prices. IÉs network is more akin to Belgium or the Netherlands. They run high frequency, high capacity intercity services at speeds that are not TGV style, much like the Dublin to Cork corridor at the moment.

The Benelux countries might not have TGV style services, but what they do offer people is dirt cheap fares for ALL, it doesn't matter whether you book on-line or buy in the station ten minutes before departure. Brussels to Antwerp is €7.10 single on the day with no restrictions, if you want to travel at rush hour no problem, just don't expect a seat! The simplicity of buying tickets and the price attracts people to the networks.

I'm not capable of doing the maths, but surely running half empty trains with passengers paying over €70 for walk up fares is making less money than running full trains with cheaper fares?

corktina · 18-04-2013 4:25pm

to initiate an airline-style booking service where you can get a cheaper fare booking in advance which rises as the vehicle fills is entirely sensible, should involve no management input once enacted and would automatically give cheaper fares in quieter trains. The idea is to maximise usage and revenue. Charging 3 times the bus fare is not going to put bums on seats.

There 's no reason why such a booking service couldn't result in all-reserved seating and if there are more passengers than seats then what Management should do is to increase capacity NOT expect fare paying passengers to stand (obviously this all applies to Inter City). Just because people have always had to stand is no reason why it should continue.

BenShermin · 18-04-2013 5:09pm

corktina wrote: »

to initiate an airline-style booking service where you can get a cheaper fare booking in advance which rises as the vehicle fills is entirely sensible, should involve no management input once enacted and would automatically give cheaper fares in quieter trains. The idea is to maximise usage and revenue. Charging 3 times the bus fare is not going to put bums on seats.

IÉ did have this exact service in place up until last year. I was able to book three weeks in advance and get up and down to Cork for €20 return. Fares then gradually rose in price as the date of departure grew closer and/or seats got filled.

With IÉs fantastic new system :rolleyes:, the cheapest fare is now €41.98.

corktina wrote: »

There 's no reason why such a booking service couldn't result in all-reserved seating and if there are more passengers than seats then what Management should do is to increase capacity NOT expect fare paying passengers to stand (obviously this all applies to Inter City). Just because people have always had to stand is no reason why it should continue.

I have a problem with this. I interrailed around France quiet a bit and it's a pain when you're told at the ticket desk that you can't reserve a train because it's full. Cue standing around Paris Gare de L'est for two hours waiting on the next available Strasburg TGV, when I would have happily stood for the two hours in the bar carriage of the first train that was "full". To me a seat is not a necessity.

As I said above, all rail tickets in Belgium are the same price, and the majority of people don't expect seats between 0700 to 0930, and 1600 to 1900. To buy extra carriages just to give everybody a seat at these times would be very uneconomical imo. People with families, the elderly and me as a tourist would know that they should travel after 1900 for a more enjoyable experience.

If Irish Rail had cheap intercity tickets then I think they should charge for a reservation, lets say €5 on top of the ticket price. For that €5 though the passenger should expect a train host minding the seats at all times and the reservation system needs to always work, unlike the system in use at present.

BenShermin · 18-04-2013 5:19pm

Actually a good opportunity to highlight a problem with the reservation system on IÉ as I see it now.

My parents will be travelling Dublin to Cork tomorrow with my sister. My parents have the DSFA free pass but my sister hasn't so she booked the train on-line instead. IÉ have automatically reserved a seat for my sister even though she will be sitting in an unreserved seat instead with my parents*. This means that until the train departs Dublin tomorrow my sister will effectively be taking up two seats. Why couldn't irishrail.ie give her the option of NOT reserving a seat?

*I'm aware my parents could have reserved seats beside my sister for an extra fee on-line, but they'd rather arrive at the station early to get a seat rather than pay extra.

corktina · 18-04-2013 5:19pm

it's only because standing has always been permitted that you expect to be allowed to stand now. You can't stand on a Coach or a Plane because it's dangerous, as is potentially standing on a train. It should be consigned to history. It would entail a sea-change I realise but as an aspiration it would be no harm to work towards all-reserved all-seated accommodation on intercity trains.

As regards the "booking office" incident and having to wait, we can't be far off everyone having the facility to book online and then turning up at the time the train goes rather than turning up on spec for a train.

BenShermin · 18-04-2013 5:31pm

corktina wrote: »

it's only because standing has always been permitted that you expect to be allowed to stand now. You can't stand on a Coach or a Plane because it's dangerous, as is potentially standing on a train. It should be consigned to history. It would entail a sea-change I realise but as an aspiration it would be no harm to work towards all-reserved all-seated accommodation on intercity trains.

I just don't see it as dangerous. I've stood on TGVs going at 350km/h to take phone calls/go to the buffet etc without a problem.

Until office workers gain rights to proper flexitime then I think standing on rush hour trains will never cease to exist. If you watched the recent British Railway documentary on BBC then you might remember the woman shouting out the window of a FGW MK3, "it should be illegal to pack us on like this" she shouted. I thought to myself, what a stupid woman, who forced her on to that train in the first place??

BenShermin · 18-04-2013 5:48pm

corktina wrote: »

As regards the "booking office" incident and having to wait, we can't be far off everyone having the facility to book online and then turning up at the time the train goes rather than turning up on spec for a train.

In an ideal world that would be fantastic. In reality though Ireland is a small country and anybody I know has family/friends down the country or up in the big smoke. Last minute parties and get togethers happen and the idea of internet booking goes out the window. Not to mention the elderly and ad-hoc business travellers.

Fair enough, you make rush hour trains more comfortable, but how many off-peak passengers do you lose because they couldn't be bothered with the hassle of making reservations? I can just never see it working in Ireland tbh.

dowlingm · 18-04-2013 6:08pm

BenShermin wrote: »

The Benelux countries might not have TGV style services, but what they do offer people is dirt cheap fares for ALL, it doesn't matter whether you book on-line or buy in the station ten minutes before departure. Brussels to Antwerp is €7.10 single on the day with no restrictions, if you want to travel at rush hour no problem, just don't expect a seat! The simplicity of buying tickets and the price attracts people to the networks

Railway Gazette 25 June 2012 wrote:

Last year the group’s accumulated debts reached €3bn, with rail freight arm B-Logistics reporting a €185m loss. According to Magnette, annual losses are expected to exceed €400m if nothing is done.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/reforms-proposed-to-cut-sncb-losses.html

Fares can be dirt cheap if someone else will carry the can - and remember that's a mainland European railway with all the economies of scale that come with 1435mm gauge and interconnection for medium-distance travel any direction other than west in to the sea.

corktina · 18-04-2013 6:12pm

BenShermin wrote: »

I just don't see it as dangerous. I've stood on TGVs going at 350km/h to take phone calls/go to the buffet etc without a problem.

Until office workers gain rights to proper flexitime then I think standing on rush hour trains will never cease to exist. If you watched the recent British Railway documentary on BBC then you might remember the woman shouting out the window of a FGW MK3, "it should be illegal to pack us on like this" she shouted. I thought to myself, what a stupid woman, who forced her on to that train in the first place??

it's the same as on a plane or a coach, standing is fine until it hits something or has to brake in an emergency...that's why I said POTENTIALLY dangerous. I'm not talking about commuter trains, that would be unrealistic and the speeds are much less, I'm talking about Intercity, there should be no need to stand on these.

Could the train once again be the King of the Dublin/Cork route?

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