€116,000 Consultant positions being snubbed

Montroseee · 30-03-2013 11:00pm #1

First of all I bear no resent towards people in the medical profession, I know several and they have put everything into their academic performance from a very young age. Despite this, I found the the contents of this article shocking.

I know they have received significant cuts in pay but so has literally everyone else - I know pharmacists on (no exaggeration) half the pay they were 6 or 7 years ago. Putting newly recruited members on lower contracts than existing has been common in the private sector for years. Seemingly consultants view themselves untouchable.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/116000-hospital-jobs-go-unfilled-29163747.html

steddyeddy · 30-03-2013 11:09pm

Right they should really cop onto themselves. One of the scientists who won the noble prize for discovering cyclin dependent kinases (responsible for regulating the cell cycle, so really important in cancer research) is on about 80,000 a year and he's smarter than most consultants.

Montroseee · 30-03-2013 11:14pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Right they should really cop onto themselves. One of the scientists who won the noble prize for discovering cyclin dependent kinases (responsible for regulating the cell cycle, so really important in cancer research) is on about 80,000 a year and he's smarter than most consultants.

A similar consultant in Germany will be doing well to ever break 100k, same story with the UK.

Amirani · 30-03-2013 11:15pm

Should we force them into the jobs? If they decide they don't want to accept 116k per year and feel they can earn more elsewhere then there's not much we can do about it (other than offering more of course).

Praetorian Saighdiuir · 30-03-2013 11:16pm

Il do it...I can consult things.

Mr. Wong · 30-03-2013 11:16pm

Sure they're getting more on the dole.

discus · 30-03-2013 11:17pm

Praetorian Saighdiuir wrote: »

Il do it...I can consult things.

I'll do it for less than this guy will, and the plus side is that people can pronounce my name easily.

Dr. Praetorian Saighdiuir.... no ring to it. gime gime job!

steddyeddy · 30-03-2013 11:19pm

Bring people over who will do it. They're just as qualified.

Mena · 30-03-2013 11:19pm

It's really not that much money unless you're a student or some such tbh.

Sulla Felix · 30-03-2013 11:19pm

NiallSparky wrote: »

Should we force them into the jobs? If they decide they don't want to accept 116k per year and feel they can earn more elsewhere then there's not much we can do about it (other than offering more of course).

Recruit from abroad. We pay higher than most European countries.

HondaSami · 30-03-2013 11:19pm

I might apply, can i consult AH daily to help me make decisions?

Praetorian Saighdiuir · 30-03-2013 11:19pm

discus wrote: »

I'll do it for less than this guy will, and the plus side is that people can pronounce my name easily.

Dr. Praetorian Saighdiuir.... no ring to it. gime gime job!

Hey hey Dr. Disc

I can be your co-consultant. When you balls up il take the blame but I want ALL the lollypops!

HondaSami · 30-03-2013 11:20pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Bring people over who will do it. They're just as qualified.

Over from where? how do you know they are just as qualified?

Jumboman · 30-03-2013 11:22pm

Montroseee wrote: »

First of all I bear no resent towards people in the medical profession, I know several and they have put everything into their academic performance from a very young age. Despite this, I found the the contents of this article shocking.

I know they have received significant cuts in pay but so has literally everyone else - I know pharmacists on (no exaggeration) half the pay they were 6 or 7 years ago. Putting newly recruited members on lower contracts than existing has been common in the private sector for years. Seemingly consultants view themselves untouchable.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/116000-hospital-jobs-go-unfilled-29163747.html

It just shows that they didnt get into medicine to help people but to line their own pockets.

Montroseee · 30-03-2013 11:23pm

Jumboman wrote: »

It just shows that they didnt get into medicine to help people but to line their own pockets.

That's exactly what sprung too mind when I first read this

wonski · 30-03-2013 11:23pm

I also think doctors, consultants and anyone who actually took his/her time to go through all the education stages and rather difficult, and time consuming studies deserves to be well paid. But if 100k or more is not enough, then what is enough???

ManMade · 30-03-2013 11:24pm

So young to be consultants are emigrating for better pay and conditions and we're saying being in foreign doctors of same qualifications and give them sh*te conditions. From where?

wonski · 30-03-2013 11:27pm

HondaSami wrote: »

Over from where? how do you know they are just as qualified?

There are many ways to check if one is qualified... There are already many foreign consultants working in Ireland. Same in UK.

Morag · 30-03-2013 11:28pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHlvoUGYiyQ

BarryLyndon · 30-03-2013 11:28pm

Whatever about the cash, medical professionals will typically have to be more mobile than most other careers when it comes to their training. I guess if one were already in that frame of mind, moving overseas wouldn't seem like much of a barrier

Montroseee · 30-03-2013 11:30pm

BarryLyndon wrote: »

Whatever about the cash, medical professionals will typically have to be more mobile than most other careers when it comes to their training. I guess if one were already in that frame of mind, moving overseas wouldn't seem like much of a barrier

It seems only america, oz and canada offer better starting salaries

steddyeddy · 30-03-2013 11:31pm

HondaSami wrote: »

Over from where? how do you know they are just as qualified?

A doctorate in Ireland is not worth substantially more than doctorate in any other country. If you're still not sure then research the standard of the country of origin.

southsiderosie · 30-03-2013 11:32pm

Montroseee wrote: »

A similar consultant in Germany will be doing well to ever break 100k, same story with the UK.

Do you have actual figures for that? Plus I think the real question here is, how much would a doctor at a similar level in similar fields make in English speaking countries (US, CAN, UK, Aus, NZ)? For example, the US has a shortage of primary care physicians, and doctors in inner-city and rural areas. A hospital physician in the US also makes, on average, $165K, and specialists make much more than that.

Dr Nic · 30-03-2013 11:34pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Right they should really cop onto themselves. One of the scientists who won the noble prize for discovering cyclin dependent kinases (responsible for regulating the cell cycle, so really important in cancer research) is on about 80,000 a year and he's smarter than most consultants.

Well does he get rostered to be on call 24 hours a day maybe 2x a week forever? And get to go to court when one of his overworked underlings makes a mistake, not even him

All in (esp life style and villification deserved or no) irish consultants are not well paid vs uk aus canada nz. Hate all you want but who do you want in charge when you have your heart attack?

MMAGirl · 30-03-2013 11:37pm

100k is nothing. They can easily earn this abroad. Probably have a better standard of living too. And not have to listen to begrudging fcukers all day either.
Seems thats how it goes in Ireland now. Someone is always complaining if anyone else is doing better than them. We're Irish, lets drag em all down with us. Shame on them for being in a position to command a few bob.

southsiderosie · 30-03-2013 11:37pm

Jumboman wrote: »

It just shows that they didnt get into medicine to help people but to line their own pockets.

Montroseee wrote: »

That's exactly what sprung too mind when I first read this

I disagree.

Anyone, regardless of their field, would like to be treated in a comparable way to their colleagues. This includes both wages and working conditions. If the wages are lower in Ireland, and the HSE is run more poorly than other health care systems, then I don't blame physicians from looking elsewhere.

That said, I do think that if the government (i.e. the public) is footing the bill for medical education, then doctors should have some obligation to work for the HSE (for at least a set period of time). If they want to opt out, then they should refund the state for their education. But I'm not Irish, so I have no idea how this works - who picks up the cost of medical school?

L.Jenkins · 30-03-2013 11:38pm

If someone offered me €116,000 a year, I take it along with their arm.

Montroseee · 30-03-2013 11:39pm

MMAGirl wrote: »

100k is nothing. They can easily earn this abroad. Probably have a better standard of living too. And not have to listen to begrudging fcukers all day either.
Seems thats how it goes in Ireland now. Someone is always complaining if anyone else is doing better than them. We're Irish, lets drag em all down with us. Shame on them for being in a position to command a few bob.

100 k is nothing is it? 100k is inside the top 1% of earners in this country

Montroseee · 30-03-2013 11:39pm

southsiderosie wrote: »

I disagree.

Anyone, regardless of their field, would like to be treated in a comparable way to their colleagues. This includes both wages and working conditions. If the wages are lower in Ireland, and the HSE is run more poorly than other health care systems, then I don't blame physicians from looking elsewhere.

That said, I do think that if the government (i.e. the public) is footing the bill for medical education, then doctors should have some obligation to work for the HSE (for at least a set period of time). If they want to opt out, then they should refund the state for their education. But I'm not Irish, so I have no idea how this works - who picks up the cost of medical school?

The government does.

af_thefragile · 30-03-2013 11:39pm

The HSE has no clue what they're doing.

Firstly you can't cut down pay by making doctors work less hours without recruiting more doctors to make up for the shorter work hours. All this has resulted in is that most junior doctors end up working more than 30-40hrs extra a week getting paid absolutely nothing. As a doctor you have responsibilities and you can't simply walk away at 5pm or whenever your shift ends because you've got to make sure you finish all the jobs before you can leave, which obviously isn't going to be all done by the time your shift is over because there aren't many doctors on your team to do the jobs when your shift is done. So you stay back another 3-6hrs every day finishing all your jobs for no pay!

Then as HSE has decided it isn't going to increase the number of jobs and infact is cutting down on the number of jobs, there are many junior doctors who have no jobs in Ireland anymore. The ones who have jobs are slaving away in jobs with absolutely uncertain futures where they have no idea if they'll get a job in 6months time forget managing to finish their years long training and getting a consultant job.

While at the same time in countries like Australia and USA, if you get into their training programs, you get excellent medical training, you are no longer working >40hrs every week for no pay, you know your training will be complete in a set number of years and after that you will be fully trained to go wherever you want in the world and apply for a consultant job and you will overall have a much better life.

There is no wonder most doctors are fleeing this country to move to other places where they have much better opportunities and certainty towards pursuing their medical career.

southsiderosie · 30-03-2013 11:40pm

Itzy wrote: »

If someone offered me €116,000 a year, I take it along with their arm.

You would be foolish to do so if everyone else in your field was making €186,000

southsiderosie · 30-03-2013 11:43pm

Montroseee wrote: »

The government does.

OK, so how does the system work - you go to school for 4 years, then are a junior doctor for a certain period, then a consultant? And the government pays for it? And when you are a junior doctor you are in a HSE hospital?

Chuck Stone · 30-03-2013 11:43pm

Montroseee wrote: »

A similar consultant in Germany will be doing well to ever break 100k, same story with the UK.

Advertise in Germany and England I reckon and reduce funding for training consultants here (if it's funded by the public).

steddyeddy · 30-03-2013 11:43pm

Dr Nic wrote: »

Well does he get rostered to be on call 24 hours a day maybe 2x a week forever? And get to go to court when one of his overworked underlings makes a mistake, not even him

All in (esp life style and villification deserved or no) irish consultants are not well paid vs uk aus canada nz. Hate all you want but who do you want in charge when you have your heart attack?

Someone not in it simply for he money to be honest. Someone who is interested primarily in cardiovascular medicine and was driven to get the job because of an interest in the workings of the heart on a biochemical, mechanical and physiological level. Not someone who doesn't get out of bed for less than 100k a year.

I'm a scientist and I work extremely long hours. You can be that the chap who discovered cyclin dependent kinases was working very long hours. My phd supervisor doesnt leave college until 3 o clock every morning and then comes gets up at 6.30 to work on lecture notes and monitor research.

People keep going on about how complex the job is but I doubt it's more complex than someone working on M-theory or someone even working on the structure of a membrane embedded protein.

Montroseee · 30-03-2013 11:46pm

southsiderosie wrote: »

OK, so how does the system work - you go to school for 4 years, then are a junior doctor for a certain period, then a consultant? And the government pays for it? And when you are a junior doctor you are in a HSE hospital?

You go to medical school for 5 years, then do 1 year as an intern to become a junior doctor. It usually takes a minimum of 12 years from then on to get a consultant position.

Amirani · 30-03-2013 11:48pm

southsiderosie wrote: »

OK, so how does the system work - you go to school for 4 years, then are a junior doctor for a certain period, then a consultant? And the government pays for it? And when you are a junior doctor you are in a HSE hospital?

It's longer than 4 years but the rest is correct as far as I know.

Turtwig · 30-03-2013 11:48pm

Some consultants have to work in quite frankly sh*t conditions. I'd be pissed if someone offered me 100k for the work they have to do. I know it sounds like a lot of money and I do think the medical profession especially G.Ps overvalue themselves monetary wise, but I think that the financial packages isn't the only reason consultants are ignoring Irish Hospitals. To use an extreme analogy, which I think conveys the point but obviously not to 1:1 fidelity, it's the different between working for Intel in Ireland to FoxConn (with the anti-suicide nets outside) in China for the same wage.

wolfpawnat · 30-03-2013 11:48pm

HondaSami wrote: »

Over from where? how do you know they are just as qualified?

To work in Ireland you are obliged to sit the Irish Medical Council exams. If you do not pass the exams you are clearly not to the same standard as Irish doctors and will not be offered the job. There are also many doctors from other countries that are just as, if not more able for the job than some of ours. I doubt the previous poster was suggesting we take a witch doctor from some remote country with no health system, though with the state of the HSE these days, it may be a step up.

Jumboman wrote: »

It just shows that they didnt get into medicine to help people but to line their own pockets.

I swear on my life, when my OH was studying medicine (he went into veterinary after a year because, and I quote "I rather the animals as my patients rather than my work colleagues") there was one guy that was doing an accountancy elective because "he wanted to be able to count how much he was earning!" I genuinely thought he was joking.......he wasn't!

A lot of them doing because their daddies did it. Apparently having a daddy a consultant made them feel they were above many of the rest of their classmates, regardless of their personal abilities they liked to ride on the coat-tails of their parents!

30-03-2013 11:49pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

People keep going on about how complex the job is but I doubt it's more complex than someone working on M-theory or someone even working on the structure of a membrane embedded protein.

Someone working on m theory doesn't have the power of life/death and responsibility and worry that goes with it every single day, and can't just clock out at 5pm.
Being remunerated in line with that & market rates does not mean they are just "in it for the money". If someone just wanted the money, I daresay there are less weighty jobs they could do, and possibly for a lot more money.

steddyeddy · 30-03-2013 11:49pm

I have friends who are Dr.s and they defiantly didn't enter it simply for the money. I'm always suspicious of people studying medicine who keep ranting on about the money etc. When I call them on it they keep talking about the hours ect.

Anyone real scientist or physician should primarily have a passion for the research or they would I would have serious doubts about their potential. Do you think the biochemists and geneticists who made up the team that recently eradicated diabetes type one in a dog got that far because they were thinking primarily about the money?

Amazing work by people like feynman or Kary Mullis (invented polymerase chain reaction mechanism for DNA amplification) was accomplished because of their passion and not because of what was going into their wallets.

Joe Hart · 30-03-2013 11:50pm

That pay is mickey mouse money and I mean that genuinely.

Taking home 5K a month? You can do very little with that. Take it from me, some that reaches the level of consultant is highly skilled and has worker far harder and longer than the 99% of people.

southsiderosie · 30-03-2013 11:50pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Someone not in it simply for he money to be honest. Someone who is interested primarily in cardiovascular medicine and was driven to get the job because of an interest in the workings of the heart on a biochemical, mechanical and physiological level. Not someone who doesn't get out of bed for less than 100k a year.

I'm a scientist and I work extremely long hours. You can be that the chap who discovered cyclin dependent kinases was working very long hours. My phd supervisor doesnt leave college until 3 o clock every morning and then comes gets up at 6.30 to work on lecture notes and monitor research.

People keep going on about how complex the job is but I doubt it's more complex than someone working on M-theory or someone even working on the structure of a membrane embedded protein.

Why do you think that someone is just in it for the money if they are refusing to be underpaid?

Also, why are you comparing academic research to being a physician? Both the training and the stakes are quite different - and I say this as an academic researcher myself.

discus · 30-03-2013 11:52pm

Praetorian Saighdiuir wrote: »

Hey hey Dr. Disc

I can be your co-consultant. When you balls up il take the blame but I want ALL the lollypops!

We have a deal!

I'm glad you're willing to take the blame. There's gonna be a lot of that!

Amirani · 30-03-2013 11:53pm

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I swear on my life, when my OH was studying medicine (he went into veterinary after a year because, and I quote "I rather the animals as my patients rather than my work colleagues") there was one guy that was doing an accountancy elective because "he wanted to be able to count how much he was earning!" I genuinely thought he was joking.......he wasn't!

A lot of them doing because their daddies did it. Apparently having a daddy a consultant made them feel they were above many of the rest of their classmates, regardless of their personal abilities they liked to ride on the coat-tails of their parents!

You'll find this in any college course in the country. I think it's unfair to make it seem like it's only in medicine you'd find such an attitude.

BarryLyndon · 30-03-2013 11:53pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

People keep going on about how complex the job is but I doubt it's more complex than someone working on M-theory or someone even working on the structure of a membrane embedded protein.

To be honest, i would advocate the idea that a medic who has had their education massively subsidised by the state should put a minimum amount of time into working within the public system in some capacity.

However the above quote shows that you have a very poor comprehension of the pressure these people operate under ( pun unintended).

Montroseee · 30-03-2013 11:53pm

Joe Hart wrote: »

That pay is mickey mouse money and I mean that genuinely.

Taking home 5K a month? You can do very little with that. Take it from me, some that reaches the level of consultant is highly skilled and has worker far harder and longer than the 99% of people.

If they applied a similar work ethic to a business/entrepreneurial venture they could be making many multiples of this annually.

steddyeddy · 30-03-2013 11:54pm

southsiderosie wrote: »

Why do you think that someone is just in it for the money if they are refusing to be underpaid?

Also, why are you comparing academic research to being a physician? Both the training and the stakes are quite different - and I say this as an academic researcher myself.

You and I have very different ideas of what underpaid is but I assume you mean under payed in comparison to their colleagues? My lecturer could make triple working for Pfizer for a frankly less taxing job.

steddyeddy · 30-03-2013 11:57pm

NiallSparky wrote: »

You'll find this in any college course in the country. I think it's unfair to make it seem like it's only in medicine you'd find such an attitude.

I think doctors are the hardest working people on earth by the way! I am friends with several of them and frankly the way the hospital treat them is akin to slave labor. I really really support their efforts to change things (I don't think the IMO is helping either) but I cannot stand by the attitude of some of these consultants.

southsiderosie · 31-03-2013 12:05am

steddyeddy wrote: »

You and I have very different ideas of what underpaid is but I assume you mean under payed in comparison to their colleagues?

Yes.

steddyeddy wrote: »

My lecturer could make triple working for Pfizer for a frankly less taxing job.

But that is exactly my point - your lecturer chose not to, so why are you comparing the two? Plus, money aside, there are clear lifestyle and job security reasons to choose being a tenured faculty member over a private sector worker in a large corporation - the two are not comparable on multiple levels.

af_thefragile · 31-03-2013 12:05am

steddyeddy wrote: »

You and I have very different ideas of what underpaid is but I assume you mean under payed in comparison to their colleagues? My lecturer could make triple working for Pfizer for a frankly less taxing job.

Working >30hrs every week for no money is being underpaid.
When your shift lasts from 8am till 4pm the following day and you only get a couple of hours of sleep if you're lucky while your shift has ended at 9am but you can't simply walk away when your shift ends and have to work extra hours for no pay.

When you're doing research, you don't have to make decisions that have serious consequences on the life of people. When you haven't slept for over 20hrs and its 4am in the morning and you're the only doctor on the ward to look after the patient who is deteriorating, its a completely different ball game from staying back late working on your research for your phd or nobel prize or whatever.

Dr Nic · 31-03-2013 12:05am

steddyeddy wrote: »

Someone not in it simply for he money to be honest. Someone who is interested primarily in cardiovascular medicine and was driven to get the job because of an interest in the workings of the heart on a biochemical, mechanical and physiological level. Not someone who doesn't get out of bed for less than 100k a year.

I'm a scientist and I work extremely long hours. You can be that the chap who discovered cyclin dependent kinases was working very long hours. My phd supervisor doesnt leave college until 3 o clock every morning and then comes gets up at 6.30 to work on lecture notes and monitor research.

People keep going on about how complex the job is but I doubt it's more complex than someone working on M-theory or someone even working on the structure of a membrane embedded protein.

Its not complex really. But 36 hours a day for 12 yrs dealing with a public that hates you from what this thread suggests is hard...

I dont know why im defending them. Drive me nuts sometimes too but when sh1t hits the fan youd pay anything to have them around

€116,000 Consultant positions being snubbed

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