€116,000 Consultant positions being snubbed

April O Neill

wonski wrote: »

I didn't want to be(sound to be) rude, or anything like that. But dreaming of 1/4 of 116k/year for graduate/undergraduate is a bit of overreaction.

My life is an overreaction. FML.

southsiderosie

April O Neill wrote: »

Not a student, and I'd be delighted to earn of quarter of that amount.

Are you a doctor? If you aren't, this isn't really relevant.

April O Neill wrote: »

Oi, begrudgery. When will this old chestnut die? Never.

What would you call it then?

April O Neill

southsiderosie wrote: »

Are you a doctor? If you aren't, this isn't really relevant.

On less than 20k a year, what do you think?

What would you call it then?

Incredulity at >100k not being enough? OK, in some other country, one could demand more. Put that aside for a second. In terms of living, it is a very, VERY comfortable salary.

wonski

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Yes, but what has to be taken into account there is the use of the word average, meaning some are earning only 25,000 while others are earning 55,000 within that bracket.

Wages and salaries have come down greatly since 2006 for many people. My partner and I were shocked recently when we were reading in a newspaper the contrasting pay scales in the last few years in each profession, sadly it being the middle of the night the paper's name fails to some to mind.

He is studying veterinary. When he went into the course in 2009, the pay for graduates was approximately 35,000-40,000 starting out, it has dropped to 29,000 to 31,000 (http://www.payscale.com/research/IE/Job=Veterinary_Surgeon/Salary) not much of a drop compared to others, but in all fairness, for a job where, like a doctor you are expected to work very hard hours, and risk being kicked, stomped or bitten, that is a pittance for your troubles, 550+ points, 5 years of study and training and unpaid work experience.

Makes you think how little some families working bring home a week!

I totally agree with you, it is sad, but it is what it is.
My brother, who has 40hours/week contract with a company is asked again to go to social welfare because they organized shutdown???
This is the only country i know where company shuts the production for a week(1 week every month for three months), and the governement pays for that. All these people are left with no alternatives at all.
I never went to University, but was lucky enough to get proper experience, and great pay. All i had to do was to work hard.
I really feel sad for people who spend lot of time on their education, build up their expectations, and then find out it isn't as simple as it looked.
The good thing is there are jobs out there - i know a lot of people(food quality control) who got jobs recently, you may want to think to go this route. 25-30k guaranteed, and not as hard as some may think.

edit: 25-30k is an assistant salary. For graduate with some experience you are looking for more in the future.

dlouth15

af_thefragile wrote: »

The HSE has no clue what they're doing.

Firstly you can't cut down pay by making doctors work less hours without recruiting more doctors to make up for the shorter work hours. All this has resulted in is that most junior doctors end up working more than 30-40hrs extra a week getting paid absolutely nothing. As a doctor you have responsibilities and you can't simply walk away at 5pm or whenever your shift ends because you've got to make sure you finish all the jobs before you can leave, which obviously isn't going to be all done by the time your shift is over because there aren't many doctors on your team to do the jobs when your shift is done. So you stay back another 3-6hrs every day finishing all your jobs for no pay!

Then as HSE has decided it isn't going to increase the number of jobs and infact is cutting down on the number of jobs, there are many junior doctors who have no jobs in Ireland anymore. The ones who have jobs are slaving away in jobs with absolutely uncertain futures where they have no idea if they'll get a job in 6months time forget managing to finish their years long training and getting a consultant job.

I'm getting a contradictory picture here. On the one hand your saying there are few opportunities and on the other hand, according to the article, consultant jobs paying better than the UK, Germany etc. are going unfilled.

wolfpawnat

wonski wrote: »

I totally agree with you, it is sad, but it is what it is.
My brother, who has 40hours/week contract with a company is asked again to go to social welfare because they organized shutdown???
This is the only country i know where company shuts the production for a week(1 week every month for three months), and the governement pays for that. All these people are left with no alternatives at all.
I never went to University, but was lucky enough to get proper experience, and great pay. All i had to do was to work hard.
I really feel sad for people who spend lot of time on their education, build up their expectations, and then find out it isn't as simple as it looked.
The good thing is there are jobs out there - i know a lot of people(food quality control) who got jobs recently, you may want to think to go this route. 25-30k guaranteed, and not as hard as some may think.

edit: 25-30k is an assistant salary. For graduate with some experience you are looking for more in the future.

Thankfully vets have a few areas they can branch into. He'll be fine, other areas pay less, but less hours and no animals trying to harm you makes up for the difference!

A lot of people have taken drastic paycuts, so anyone starting a new job such as a new consultancy needs to remember this. Now doctors, for everyones talk don't have a great life. I had an anaesthetist who was called in for my case at 4am, my partner saw him at 10 in the morning, and again at 6pm. I saw him, still in the same clothes at 2am, I asked him had he gone home since my surgery, he hadn't. 22 hours, insanity what the HSE expects of people. A friend of mine is a midwife, she was complaining about her 13 hour shift, until she saw an obstetrician do a 36 hour one. 116k isn't worth that shíte. There are other careers I wonder are they worth half the money they're paid.

Montroseee

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Thankfully vets have a few areas they can branch into. He'll be fine, other areas pay less, but less hours and no animals trying to harm you makes up for the difference!

A lot of people have taken drastic paycuts, so anyone starting a new job such as a new consultancy needs to remember this. Now doctors, for everyones talk don't have a great life. I had an anaesthetist who was called in for my case at 4am, my partner saw him at 10 in the morning, and again at 6pm. I saw him, still in the same clothes at 2am, I asked him had he gone home since my surgery, he hadn't. 22 hours, insanity what the HSE expects of people. A friend of mine is a midwife, she was complaining about her 13 hour shift, until she saw an obstetrician do a 36 hour one. 116k isn't worth that shíte. There are other careers I wonder are they worth half the money they're paid.

And what would they be?

wolfpawnat

dlouth15 wrote: »

I'm getting a contradictory picture here. On the one hand your saying there are few opportunities and on the other hand, according to the article, consultant jobs paying better than the UK, Germany etc. are going unfilled.

In Britain and Germany, you do you 10-12 hour shift and you go home. Here you do your shift and since there is no one to come in and cover the next one, you are as good as forced to cover it. You get paid not one single brass cent for your extra work. So a doctor works 40-50 hours a week paid (and it is good pay for 40-50 hours), and another 40 unpaid. Not worth it when you think of what they get paid for the 80 overall worked hours.

Here is an example I know personally. My friends husband has to be to the hospital by 7:30am to start his days work, but he is only paid from 9:30 on. He is paid until 5, but rarely gets out the door before 9. He is a registrar. He also has to do 2 weekends a month, yet his contract says Monday to Friday. If he doesn't do it, the contract is not renewed and the HSE does not rehire him.

wolfpawnat

Montroseee wrote: »

And what would they be?

Well politician would most certainly be on top of the list

Montroseee

wolfpawnat wrote: »

In Britain and Germany, you do you 10-12 hour shift and you go home. Here you do your shift and since there is no one to come in and cover the next one, you are as good as forced to cover it. You get paid not one single brass cent for your extra work. So a doctor works 40-50 hours a week paid (and it is good pay for 40-50 hours), and another 40 unpaid. Not worth it when you think of what they get paid for the 80 overall worked hours.

Here is an example I know personally. My friends husband has to be to the hospital by 7:30am to start his days work, but he is only paid from 9:30 on. He is paid until 5, but rarely gets out the door before 9. He is a registrar. He also has to do 2 weekends a month, yet his contract says Monday to Friday. If he doesn't do it, the contract is not renewed and the HSE does not rehire him.

Jesus thats awful, You learn something new everyday - I knew the HSE were bad but didn't realise they treated staff like this.

wonski

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Thankfully vets have a few areas they can branch into. He'll be fine, other areas pay less, but less hours and no animals trying to harm you makes up for the difference!

A lot of people have taken drastic paycuts, so anyone starting a new job such as a new consultancy needs to remember this. Now doctors, for everyones talk don't have a great life. I had an anaesthetist who was called in for my case at 4am, my partner saw him at 10 in the morning, and again at 6pm. I saw him, still in the same clothes at 2am, I asked him had he gone home since my surgery, he hadn't. 22 hours, insanity what the HSE expects of people. A friend of mine is a midwife, she was complaining about her 13 hour shift, until she saw an obstetrician do a 36 hour one. 116k isn't worth that shíte. There are other careers I wonder are they worth half the money they're paid.

Long hours? Nothing unusual about this.
Doctor on long hours? Not sure if i want to be treated by a doctor who slept for 4 hours. That is the core of the problem i think.

Glad to see he has a job. So there are not as many problems as some think...

wonski

wolfpawnat wrote: »

In Britain and Germany, you do you 10-12 hour shift and you go home. Here you do your shift and since there is no one to come in and cover the next one, you are as good as forced to cover it. You get paid not one single brass cent for your extra work. So a doctor works 40-50 hours a week paid (and it is good pay for 40-50 hours), and another 40 unpaid. Not worth it when you think of what they get paid for the 80 overall worked hours.

Here is an example I know personally. My friends husband has to be to the hospital by 7:30am to start his days work, but he is only paid from 9:30 on. He is paid until 5, but rarely gets out the door before 9. He is a registrar. He also has to do 2 weekends a month, yet his contract says Monday to Friday. If he doesn't do it, the contract is not renewed and the HSE does not rehire him.

If this is true, and i have no reason to say it isn't, this is sad.
I have seen this before in my country, where health service is free(you pay for it anyway from your paycheck every month), i could accept it in UK where it was free again, and didn't see deduction on paycheck, but here, where you have to pay, either billed, or via health insurance??? Makes no sense to me.

wolfpawnat

wonski wrote: »

Long hours? Nothing unusual about this.
Doctor on long hours? Not sure if i want to be treated by a doctor who slept for 4 hours. That is the core of the problem i think.

Glad to see he has a job. So there are not as many problems as some think...

He's there a while, in before the employment freeze thank goodness. But there are a few positions, just abusing the freshly graduated to fill them. Interns are a very cheap source of doctors too. They HAVE to do a year as an intern, and they are fully qualified so they are made work like sled dogs.

The 4 hours sleep thing is the reason many doctors make terrible, life threatening mistakes. They also get toss all food breaks, so you are dealing with quite a few underfed, exhausted, stressed people trying to make life saving decisions. It is not the "cushy" life some think it.

wolfpawnat

wonski wrote: »

If this is true, and i have no reason to say it isn't, this is sad.
I have seen this before in my country, where health service is free(you pay for it anyway from your paycheck every month), i could accept it in UK where it was free again, and didn't see deduction on paycheck, but here, where you have to pay, either billed, or via health insurance??? Makes no sense to me.

The EU stomped down on ridiculous overtime by demanding doctors only work a 58 hour week, this is called the European Working Time Directive (http://www.dohc.ie/issues/european_working_time_directive/). So now doctors only get paid 58 hours. But with an employment freeze and the hours still needing to be worked, a lot of junior doctors (anyone under consultant) are taken for a ride. Consultants too are open to abuse, but not to the same extent, they are the top of their field.

wonski

wolfpawnat wrote: »

He's there a while, in before the employment freeze thank goodness. But there are a few positions, just abusing the freshly graduated to fill them. Interns are a very cheap source of doctors too. They HAVE to do a year as an intern, and they are fully qualified so they are made work like sled dogs.

The 4 hours sleep thing is the reason many doctors make terrible, life threatening mistakes. They also get toss all food breaks, so you are dealing with quite a few underfed, exhausted, stressed people trying to make life saving decisions. It is not the "cushy" life some think it.

That is my worry. They have to be relaxed, rested and fully operational. I bet none of those who sleep for few hours go to surgery stages, but at the same time they would have no chance to get there, because they are never fit to work.
Knew plenty of students as i lived close to Medical Academy in Poland, that is why i always have respect to them, and trust them, but all of us want them (doctors/consultants) to be fit to work, with good sleep, and feeling that their work is rewarded. And i go back to question: 116k - good enough?

dlouth15

The 116k seems good by European standards yet positions at consultant level are apparently not being taken up.

At the same time doctors complain about lack of opportunities and this is forcing them to leave.

Existing consultants are still on very high salaries (180k+). None of these will naturally be taking up a new contract.

It may be that lack of opportunities lower down mean that by the time doctors would normally be in a position to take one of these consultant jobs they have already left hospital work or left Ireland altogether.

Ireland is a small country yet we have the same barriers to entry as a much larger country. Less incentive to a foreign doctor to come here.

On the whole raising the 116k would be the wrong solution given the state the country is in and the fact that there's a lot of other things that could be done.

Saab Ed

I know nothing about the relative wages of consultants but a lot of the counter argument in here as to why there's such a high wage expectation is the initial expence involved in becoming qualified . Here's an idea, shoot me down if it sounds like utter rubbish.

Fully subsidize the cost of training (obviously only for those with the required educational standard to meet the grade). Okay, I see some blindingly obvious remarks coming here so stick with me. The subsidy would be provided in actual cash payments (like wages) into the trainees account. Now here's the part where I attempt to square a round hole.

The entire training cost/college fee that's been fully subsidized by the state does not have to be repaid so long as the trainee consultant agrees to work a minimum ??? Year term post training and in aggreance with the then current rate being paid in Ireland at the time of begining training.

Should the newly qualified consultant change their mind upon completion of their training then the previously subsidized payments then get converted to a loan with punitive interest rate thus the state gets a small return financially on its investment. Importantly this scheme would not be available to New trainees who's parent's are high earners leaving the path way open for an entire New class of consultants who previously, due to financial constraints, could not have had the chance to go to medical school.

I suspect this might shift the attitudes towards consultancy and remove it from being a career choice that's the preserve of a select few.

Very rough edged, back of an envelope idea in trying to find a viable solution to providing consultants yet paying them what we can afford.

coffee_cake

Saab Ed wrote: »

Very rough edged, back of an envelope idea in trying to find a viable solution to providing consultants yet paying them what we can afford.

We could just privatise healthcare and not pay them anything and let them earn what they can

wolfpawnat

bluewolf wrote: »

We could just privatise healthcare and not pay them anything and let them earn what they can

Many of their private clinics earn far higher than their public ones. That is the big thing here. 116k would just be the HSE salary, if they have private clinics (as many, but not all of them do) then the 116k could be nothing in comparison, as anyone who has forked out for a consultant visit privately would know!

wolfpawnat

wonski wrote: »

And i go back to question: 116k - good enough?

Consultants don't get caught to do the 80 odd hours like their junior colleagues. But they still get caught for a lot. 116,000 / 52 weeks is 2,230, I assume (and this is only an assumption) nearly 1,000 is tax. We'll say 900 is tax leaving 1330 a week salary, they do about 60 hours. 1330/60 hours = €20.50 an hour. Cardiac surgeon on 20 an hour after tax, that is a scary thought for the pressures of that job.

HOWEVER the higher up surgeons and specialists are highly likely to have private clinics where they could easily be making far more money. My mother in law goes at least once a year to a cardiologist. Before she ever even sees him, she is charged €250. He can see 2 people an hour, boom, €500 an hour. Now he has rents, taxes and secretaries to pay too, but not shabby. It is a hard one to call.

professore

The solution is obvious. Cut consultants salaries and hire more of them, and more junior doctors. That way you improve the standard of care and remove the need for ridiculous overtime. You also give junior doctors their lives back. Also make it illegal for public consultants to have a private practise. in short actually implement the EU directive.

MMAGirl

April O Neill wrote: »

Oi, begrudgery. When will this old chestnut die? Never.

im sure it will stop when the begrudging stops.
its always the same.
some group is shown as doing well.
begrudgers appear all over the place.

thats too much.
i would do it for half that.
they dont deserve that.
116k is too much for a consultant.
60k is too much for a teacher.
some people have pensionable jobs and shouldnt.
pensioners get a bus pass and i dont.
homeowners own a house and i dont.
and so on.

well fcucking go train in that field and get that job if its so easy for you to do.
everyone seems to think they can do everyone elses job.

what a great country ireland is.
everyone has so many skills.
everyone can do any job that another guy has and will do it for less.
everyone is an economist and knows how to run a country.
but usually thats just everyone who never quite made it in life to somewhere they are happy with and are just jealous of those who did. makes them feel better to try to drag others down.
funny how its more prevalent in ireland than anywhere else.

dxhound2005

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Consultants don't get caught to do the 80 odd hours like their junior colleagues. But they still get caught for a lot. 116,000 / 52 weeks is 2,230, I assume (and this is only an assumption) nearly 1,000 is tax. We'll say 900 is tax leaving 1330 a week salary, they do about 60 hours. 1330/60 hours = €20.50 an hour. Cardiac surgeon on 20 an hour after tax, that is a scary thought for the pressures of that job.

HOWEVER the higher up surgeons and specialists are highly likely to have private clinics where they could easily be making far more money. My mother in law goes at least once a year to a cardiologist. Before she ever even sees him, she is charged €250. He can see 2 people an hour, boom, €500 an hour. Now he has rents, taxes and secretaries to pay too, but not shabby. It is a hard one to call.

I don't see any mention in the link of the €116,000 contract being for 60 hours per week, only that they are full time consultant posts. If someone did 40 hours or 80 hours would they get the same as the 60 hour person?

Changes which came into effect last autumn saw the entry pay for newly recruited consultants, hired to treat only public patients, fall from €166,010 to €116,207. The salary for a new recruit who can treat public and private patients dropped from €156,258 to €109,300.

whiteandlight

wolfpawnat wrote: »

The EU stomped down on ridiculous overtime by demanding doctors only work a 58 hour week, this is called the European Working Time Directive (http://www.dohc.ie/issues/european_working_time_directive/). So now doctors only get paid 58 hours. But with an employment freeze and the hours still needing to be worked, a lot of junior doctors (anyone under consultant) are taken for a ride. Consultants too are open to abuse, but not to the same extent, they are the top of their field.

The hse haven't even implemented this. I remember James Reilly saying it would take him three years minimum to try as arrange this

clairefontaine

There is no point comparing Irish medicine with US medicine. US doctors have big big student loans to pay back as well as oblige a different standard of medicine altogether.

When you take Irish taxes into account, what does 100k come out to?

Medicine is expensive in the US. $300 to be told you have a viral chest infection, vs E50 from the GP.

Plus in the US when you go for an annual check up, you are in there for an hour or so, with full bloods, a smear, a breast exam, referals for other things too, advice on excersize and diet,. With the Irish GP, there is no such thing as an annual check up.

In my nearest hospital the radiologist is there until 10pm every night, but he is not paid to stay there till then and they wont hire another one. I wouldnt blame him for demanding more money. These people are making life and death decisions and assessments everyday under conditions that make fertile ground for a lot of human error.

Duggys Housemate

Chuck Stone wrote: »

In a free market equilibrium is reached by supply meeting demand. The demand for medical services is high and inescapable (people don't really get ill by choice) but the supply of medical people is low. Entry to the medical professions is restricted by high points in University and high costs (remember that high points =/= aptitude). Also, the medical professions would fight any liberalization tooth and nail (ask any nurse or pharmacist).



Don't you think on-the-job competency rather than qualification should dictate earnings? Or do you think qualification should be a golden ticket?



This only underscores your own lack of understanding rather than helping me. You still have to get through all the artificial barriers to become a surgeon so forget throwing around that 'free market' term.



This is just so wrong. There's a high demand to enter the medical profession because of the rewards and yet supply never seems to meet demand - the points remain high for Uni and so does pay. Why do you think that is?

By this kind of logic, all jobs should be equally paid because, although there are barriers to entry ( being smart for IT, law, or medicine) these are "artificial" barriers and prices should clear.

I understand market economics very well, thanks.

There may be some "artificial" supply side problems if places are restricted. But that's it.

wolfpawnat

professore wrote: »

The solution is obvious. Cut consultants salaries and hire more of them, and more junior doctors. That way you improve the standard of care and remove the need for ridiculous overtime. You also give junior doctors their lives back. Also make it illegal for public consultants to have a private practise.

It is a great idea. In a perfect world I would love to see this. Refreshed, hopefully more pleasant doctors, more able to make good solid decisions, deaths would be cut significantly, not in total because that is impossible, medicine isn't perfect, but the malpractice suits would plummet. And yes, employment would be better, and it would not be so difficult to see a consultant as a public patient with absurd waiting times of months to years!

Sadly it is not an ideal world.

wolfpawnat

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I don't see any mention in the link of the €116,000 contract being for 60 hours per week, only that they are full time consultant posts. If someone did 40 hours or 80 hours would they get the same as the 60 hour person?

Changes which came into effect last autumn saw the entry pay for newly recruited consultants, hired to treat only public patients, fall from €166,010 to €116,207. The salary for a new recruit who can treat public and private patients dropped from €156,258 to €109,300.

You are paid the same regardless of what you work because on the books you are working 58 hours, but expected to do more.

Musicmental85 wrote: »

The hse haven't even implemented this. I remember James Reilly saying it would take him three years minimum to try as arrange this

This has been in a couple years already, it is sloth, he doesn't want to implement it because overall it would cost the HSE more money.

WayneMolloy

If the state has heavily subsided their training, then they should be made work, at a reduced pay scale, for x amount of time in a state hospital.

I dont think that is unfair.

valder

Montroseee wrote: »

First of all I bear no resent towards people in the medical profession, I know several and they have put everything into their academic performance from a very young age. Despite this, I found the the contents of this article shocking.

I know they have received significant cuts in pay but so has literally everyone else - I know pharmacists on (no exaggeration) half the pay they were 6 or 7 years ago. Putting newly recruited members on lower contracts than existing has been common in the private sector for years. Seemingly consultants view themselves untouchable.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/116000-hospital-jobs-go-unfilled-29163747.html

all the hse are untouchable, try getting a politician to go against them, they recently took our grandchildren into care, we had been caring for them for 2 years, we had the baby 3 years, they use guardian ad litems from barnardos to enforce their wishes in court, the judje nearly always listens to the guardian ad litem, the fact that they are paid very good salaries by the hse makes this practice very unfair in my opinion, barnardos get paid millions annualy from the hse, barnardos survive on donations, why have they the power they have in a court of law, they are just enforcers for the hse well paid ones