€116,000 Consultant positions being snubbed

Montroseee

wonski wrote: »

Almost forgot this was After Hours after all. Thanks for reminding. We stayed on topic for at least 3 pages.

There's always one fool.

take everything

Good thread about this on Politics.ie as well.
Interesting point by the OP there that the pay of bankers who helped to ruin the country is still multiples of most consultants' pay. The government cite the "these financial geniuses could just go elsewhere" excuse and so you have the 500 grand pay.
But when it comes to consultants, whose jobs are arguably far more important, this doesn't seem to apply at all and their pay is just cut like that.
Well this is the result.

If these highly-skilled people want to leave for proper pay, so what?

Also, the stench of begrudgery from a couple of posters in the politics thread is great.

Montroseee

take everything wrote: »

Good thread about this on Politics.ie as well.
Interesting point by the OP there that the pay of bankers who helped to ruin the country is still multiples of most consultants' pay. The government cite the "these financial geniuses could just go elsewhere" excuse and so you have the 500 grand pay.
But when it comes to consultants, whose jobs are arguably far more important, this doesn't seem to apply at all and their pay is just cut like that.
Well this is the result.

If these highly-skilled people want to leave for proper pay, so what?

Could you link that thread here please.

sock puppet

Montroseee wrote: »

Didn't know lawyers start on that amount, would have thought it was about half that, maybe I'm in the wrong business

In the US yes. Even in London I think it's less than half that, in part I imagine due to the massive student loans US students graduate with. Also only a minority of students will get those jobs too.

take everything

Montroseee wrote: »

Could you link that thread here please.

Just did there

Chuck Stone

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Explain

1) why it's isn't a free market

In a free market equilibrium is reached by supply meeting demand. The demand for medical services is high and inescapable (people don't really get ill by choice) but the supply of medical people is low. Entry to the medical professions is restricted by high points in University and high costs (remember that high points =/= aptitude). Also, the medical professions would fight any liberalization tooth and nail (ask any nurse or pharmacist).

2) why you think that an advanced degree like medicine would not earn more money, not less, even if you could prove

Don't you think on-the-job competency rather than qualification should dictate earnings? Or do you think qualification should be a golden ticket?

To help you a bit with 2) - cosmetic surgery is as free market...

This only underscores your own lack of understanding rather than helping me. You still have to get through all the artificial barriers to become a surgeon so forget throwing around that 'free market' term.

The evidence is that if we had a totally free market system for health doctors and consultants would be earning much much more.

This is just so wrong. There's a high demand to enter the medical profession because of the rewards and yet supply never seems to meet demand - the points remain high for Uni and so does pay. Why do you think that is?

Surinam

Montroseee wrote: »

Didn't know lawyers start on that amount, would have thought it was about half that, maybe I'm in the wrong business

You'd be right, the other poster is talking complete drivel if they think an Irish solicitor starts on 6 figures. The average trainee is on around €30k and when they qualify they will be earning anywhere between €40-€60k for a few years - it would go up after that of course but only (very) senior associates and partners would be earning 6 figures.

Even in the US, only the absolute best lawyers on large wall street firms would start on salaries somewhere near the figures the other poster gave.

People who have been educated by this State with free college education owe, in my opinion, some degree of loyalty to the country. Someone who turns down €116,000 was clearly only ever motivated by money/prestige and is in medicine for the wrong reasons.

They cannot simply compare their salaries to the US where graduates literally emerge from college with $300,000 + in debt to pay for their degrees. The market forces over there are clearly totally different - most of their care is private and the market has to compensate for the huge debt their graduates have to pay off. Irish medical graduates would emerge with college debt of minuscule proportions compared to Americans.

Chuck Stone

southsiderosie wrote: »

Well, not necessarily, given the extent to which professional associations block expanding the number of available slots for medical school and residencies.

On the money.

Pun intended.

Grayson

Jumboman wrote: »

It just shows that they didnt get into medicine to help people but to line their own pockets.

I know someone who's a consultant. He started studying at 15 for the junior cert. He's been studying every night since. And I mean every single night. At least an hour or two if not more. Doesn't even watch TV. I think that anyone who studies that long, and studies that hard is dedicated to their profession.

BTW, if you have 20 years of experience in any field where you've been continuously sitting exams, you'd be on that much money. It's the equivalent of a CCNE in networking or any other industry exam to that level. They have more experience that someone like you could imagine.

wolfpawnat

NiallSparky wrote: »

You'll find this in any college course in the country. I think it's unfair to make it seem like it's only in medicine you'd find such an attitude.

Oh God no, it is everywhere. I am merely giving an example relevant to the appropriate field. When said partner went into veterinary, there was a city girl who didn't realise there was different breeds of cattle and sheep and was convinced that it was a 9-5 Monday to Friday job (I laughed for 15 min at that one!) and I studied nursing where there were girls horrified that nurses would have to....... wash an invalid patient! Oh the horror!!!! Yeah intelligent idiots are plentiful I am afraid!

Is this salary JUST the HSE basic pone or does it include the private practice one that so many consultants have also.

There are many consultants living on just HSE salaries (which are not shabby) but many consultants have private clinics too where they charge heftily for the pleasure of their services. My son went to and ENT consultant, 180 first visit, operation cost 750, then check up cost of 100. Another consultant in an unrelated field was €120. The more specialist, the more expensive (makes sense in a way, cardiologists, neurologists, etc are the most skilled doctors in the world working on the most intricate and important areas of human anatomy, but their private clinics rake in copious amounts of money in comparison to their HSE salary ones.

southsiderosie

Surinam wrote: »

You'd be right, the other poster is talking complete drivel if they think an Irish solicitor starts on 6 figures. The average trainee is on around €30k and when they qualify they will be earning anywhere between €40-€60k for a few years - it would go up after that of course but only (very) senior associates and partners would be earning 6 figures.

Even in the US, only the absolute best lawyers on large wall street firms would start on salaries somewhere near the figures the other poster gave.

I made it clear that I was talking about the US.

And the rate I cited is not the New York rate - it is the Midwest rate (where the cost of living is significantly cheaper).

Surinam wrote: »

People who have been educated by this State with free college education owe, in my opinion, some degree of loyalty to the country. Someone who turns down €116,000 was clearly only ever motivated by money/prestige and is in medicine for the wrong reasons.

I agree that a degree of loyalty is warranted (and should be enforced), but considering that you are only up for a consultant position over a decade after finishing medical school, I think that obligation has been met. So I don't think it is unreasonable for someone to turn down a consultant position because they - as a seasoned professional - are being offered a wage that newbies in other countries make.

Surinam wrote: »

They cannot simply compare their salaries to the US where graduates literally emerge from college with $300,000 + in debt to pay for their degrees. The market forces over there are clearly totally different - most of their care is private and the market has to compensate for the huge debt their graduates have to pay off. Irish medical graduates would emerge with college debt of minuscule proportions compared to Americans.

This is true, but as I linked earlier in the thread, what a consultant makes at a government hospital in Ireland is what a brand-new doctor fresh out of residency would make at a government clinic in the US. So taking student debt into consideration, and all else being equal, the take-home pay of an Irish-trained doctor working in the US is likely significantly higher than their American counterparts - why not jump ship at that stage?

Grayson

donegal11 wrote: »

Don't these consultants also make money of private patients which they see in there publicly funded office in the hospitals. They are effectively having the best of both worlds.

They can. But not all consultants are able to. there are plenty of areas where doctors can't take private patients. And if they split their time, so only half is spent with public payments and half is with private, then cut their wages appropriately. Say 50/50.

But that's not a reason why the base pay shouldn't be high.

southsiderosie

Montroseee wrote: »

Didn't know lawyers start on that amount, would have thought it was about half that, maybe I'm in the wrong business

Yes, I've been telling myself that quite a bit lately.

baalthor

The majority of doctors working in Irish hospitals are not originally from Ireland but mostly from India, Pakistan, Africa and increasingly, Eastern Europe.

In my local non-Dublin hospital doctors from the above countries are the majority at all levels from junior to consultant.

If you meet an Irish born doctor they're either a recent graduate or a consultant pushing on for retirement.

And this has been the situation for decades - there was a stat for our region in the 1980s that 70% of the non consultant doctors were from outside the EU.

The current starting salary for a medical school graduate is around €30k - in recent years the HSE had to run an emergency recruitment drive in India and Pakistan to find doctors who were willing to work here.

For doctors from the countries above, working in Ireland is presumably desirable in terms of salary, life style and career progression while I assume working abroad is similarly desirable for the Irish doctors.

wonski

Surinam wrote: »

You'd be right, the other poster is talking complete drivel if they think an Irish solicitor starts on 6 figures. The average trainee is on around €30k and when they qualify they will be earning anywhere between €40-€60k for a few years - it would go up after that of course but only (very) senior associates and partners would be earning 6 figures.

Even in the US, only the absolute best lawyers on large wall street firms would start on salaries somewhere near the figures the other poster gave.

People who have been educated by this State with free college education owe, in my opinion, some degree of loyalty to the country. Someone who turns down €116,000 was clearly only ever motivated by money/prestige and is in medicine for the wrong reasons.

They cannot simply compare their salaries to the US where graduates literally emerge from college with $300,000 + in debt to pay for their degrees. The market forces over there are clearly totally different - most of their care is private and the market has to compensate for the huge debt their graduates have to pay off. Irish medical graduates would emerge with college debt of minuscule proportions compared to Americans.

40-60k/year for a lawyer, for few years? I always thought it was more.
Only senior associates getting over 100k is even more surprising to me.
If you think about it 116k for consultant doesn't sound as excessive now.

On the other hand it is basic salary (for the lawyers), isn't it? I bet they get some performance bonuses every month/year??? Asking out of curiosity, never knew one personally, which is a good thing...

southsiderosie

baalthor wrote: »

The majority of doctors working in Irish hospitals are not originally from Ireland but mostly from India, Pakistan, Africa and increasingly, Eastern Europe.

In my local non-Dublin hospital doctors from the above countries are the majority at all levels from junior to consultant.

If you meet an Irish born doctor they're either a recent graduate or a consultant pushing on for retirement.

And this has been the situation for decades - there was a stat for our region in the 1980s that 70% of the non consultant doctors were from outside the EU.

The current starting salary for a medical school graduate is around €30k - in recent years the HSE had to run an emergency recruitment drive in India and Pakistan to find doctors who were willing to work here.

For doctors from the countries above, working in Ireland is presumably desirable in terms of salary, life style and career progression while I assume working abroad is similarly desirable for the Irish doctors.

Do you have actual stats for that? The highest estimates I've seen for Ireland were that between 1/4 and 1/3 of doctors were foreign-born.

wonski

southsiderosie wrote: »

Do you have actual stats for that? The highest estimates I've seen for Ireland were that between 1/4 and 1/3 of doctors were foreign-born.

What he/she posted would apply to UK, but not to Ireland.

wolfpawnat

southsiderosie wrote: »

Do you have actual stats for that? The highest estimates I've seen for Ireland were that between 1/4 and 1/3 of doctors were foreign-born.

The other thing too is a lot of foreign students study in Ireland, so they may be foreign born, but Irish qualified. I know a few personally who trained in UCD and RCSI and stayed here to work.

Grayson

wolfpawnat wrote: »

The other thing too is a lot of foreign students study in Ireland, so they may be foreign born, but Irish qualified. I know a few personally who trained in UCD and RCSI and stayed here to work.

The RCSI has a huge number of foreign doctors. It might because of the entrance exam.

Montroseee

Grayson wrote: »

The RCSI has a huge number of foreign doctors. It might because of the entrance exam.

They pay in the region of 50k in fees to the college

wolfpawnat

Grayson wrote: »

The RCSI has a huge number of foreign doctors. It might because of the entrance exam.

No entrance exam anymore and the HPAT is not applicable to foreign students, the approximate €46,000 a year fee per non-EU student and the agreements made between Irish colleges and the Malaysian government would have a lot to do with it I would imagine.

Here Precious2

Agencies are placing newly qualified accountants in jobs for 25-30k. Whats the point in studying for 5 or 6 years to get a professional qualification?. Nearly better off driving a bus and getting 40k a year. No offence to bus drivers btw.

April O Neill

Mena wrote: »

It's really not that much money unless you're a student or some such tbh.

Not a student, and I'd be delighted to earn of quarter of that amount.

wonski

April O Neill wrote: »

Not a student, and I'd be delighted to earn of quarter of that amount.

Quarter of 116k?

wolfpawnat

wonski wrote: »

Quarter of 116k?

Considering that national industrial wage is barely over a quarter of that at 41k a year

http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/average-industrial-wage-in-ireland-576846-Aug2012/

These days, that is a féck load of money to a lot of people.

Wils110

Irish way give out about how much enda gets payed compared to Obama blah blah blah but don't realise that the Irish public servants on the desk get more then anyone else and do alot less work...when a decent job shows up ah I'm worth more then that sure 5 years ago I coulda got 200k for that..some terrible attitudes in this country

April O Neill

wonski wrote: »

Quarter of 116k?

Yup.

April O Neill

southsiderosie wrote: »

It's being overwhelmed by the stench of begrudgery.

Oi, begrudgery. When will this old chestnut die? Never.

wonski

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Considering that national industrial wage is barely over a quarter of that at 41k a year

http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/average-industrial-wage-in-ireland-576846-Aug2012/

These days, that is a féck load of money to a lot of people.

I didn't want to be(sound to be) rude, or anything like that. But dreaming of 1/4 of 116k/year for graduate/undergraduate is a bit of overreaction.
I know it isn't an easy time for some of us - especially the ones with no experience, but there are still jobs out there. I do agree however that some employers are taking a piss offering silly wages to new staff. Patience is needed these days, but if you are hard worker, you will get there easily.

BTW 41k is an average based on what? And it is not barely over a quarter of 116 tbh, more like 1/3...

wolfpawnat

wonski wrote: »

I didn't want to be(sound to be) rude, or anything like that. But dreaming of 1/4 of 116k/year for graduate/undergraduate is a bit of overreaction.
I know it isn't an easy time for some of us - especially the ones with no experience, but there are still jobs out there. I do agree however that some employers are taking a piss offering silly wages to new staff. Patience is needed these days, but if you are hard worker, you will get there easily.

BTW 41k is an average based on what? And it is not barely over a quarter of 116 tbh, more like 1/3...

Yes, but what has to be taken into account there is the use of the word average, meaning some are earning only 25,000 while others are earning 55,000 within that bracket.

Wages and salaries have come down greatly since 2006 for many people. My partner and I were shocked recently when we were reading in a newspaper the contrasting pay scales in the last few years in each profession, sadly it being the middle of the night the paper's name fails to some to mind.

He is studying veterinary. When he went into the course in 2009, the pay for graduates was approximately 35,000-40,000 starting out, it has dropped to 29,000 to 31,000 (http://www.payscale.com/research/IE/Job=Veterinary_Surgeon/Salary) not much of a drop compared to others, but in all fairness, for a job where, like a doctor you are expected to work very hard hours, and risk being kicked, stomped or bitten, that is a pittance for your troubles, 550+ points, 5 years of study and training and unpaid work experience.

Makes you think how little some families working bring home a week!