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€116,000 Consultant positions being snubbed

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    #62
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    pragmatic1 wrote: »
    "100k is nothing." What fcuking planet do you live on because I'd like to visit.
    It's relative. On its own, 100k is a very good salary. But when you compare it to what your similarly qualified colleagues earn abroad and find out you're earning much less, it's not as good.

    Most, if not all consultants will have worked abroad for a few years and those newly qualified probably wouldn't have any issue moving back if the salary differences were big enough.


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    #63
    Montroseee
    Registered Users Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭Montroseee


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    Specialist doctors in USA easily make well over 200-300K a year because much of healthcare there is private.

    Even in countries like Germany, although the doctors don't make as much as they do here, the taxes aren't as high, the work environment is a million times better and the cost of living isn't as high as here. So you may not make as much but you're still happier and more satisfied with your job.

    And although most medical students and junior doctors will give you some bull**** about doing medicine because they want to help people, truth is most people get into medicine for the same reason people get into any professional field. They want to do something they'll enjoy while having a secure and comfortable future which a field like medicine promises to give.

    You can help people by volunteering in a soup kitchen if that's really what you want to do.

    You must remember the differences in currency.


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    #64
    pragmatic1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,573 ✭✭✭pragmatic1


    southsiderosie wrote: »
    A planet where people who are skilled professionals regularly make over 100K, much of which gets eaten up by student loans and the high cost of living in major metropolitan areas?
    Cool beans because I'm a skilled professional myself and I'd love to make even half of that a year. Where about is this planet again?


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    #65
    Duggys Housemate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    Montroseee wrote: »
    You must remember the differences in currency.

    I think everybody is compensating for that. Top end consultants in the US earn 100ks - millions


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    #66
    af_thefragile
    Registered Users Posts: 7,171 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    Montroseee wrote: »
    You must remember the differences in currency.

    $200k is still heck of a lot of money. Especially in USA where everything is much cheaper than here in Ireland.


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    #67
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,523 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    pragmatic1 wrote: »
    Cool beans because I'm a skilled professional myself and I'd love to make even half of that a year. Where about is this planet again?

    Your skills obviously aren't in as much demand. As has been pointed out, consultants can early 200/300k abroad, why settle for just 100k?


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    #68
    pragmatic1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,573 ✭✭✭pragmatic1


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    It's relative. On its own, 100k is a very good salary. But when you compare it to what your similarly qualified colleagues earn abroad and find out you're earning much less, it's not as good.

    Most, if not all consultants will have worked abroad for a few years and those newly qualified probably wouldn't have any issue moving back if the salary differences were big enough.
    Ok can I borrow 100,000 euro please.


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    #69
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    Montroseee wrote: »
    You must remember the differences in currency.

    116,000 euros = $148,000 US. That's slightly less that what a first-year family practitioner or pediatrician working a set 35-hour week at a government clinic makes in the US.


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    #70
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    pragmatic1 wrote: »
    Cool beans because I'm a skilled professional myself and I'd love to make even half of that a year. Where about is this planet again?

    Pick a skill where's there a higher demand. :p


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    #71
    af_thefragile
    Registered Users Posts: 7,171 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    pragmatic1 wrote: »
    Cool beans because I'm a skilled professional myself and I'd love to make even half of that a year. Where about is this planet again?

    You got into the wrong profession then I guess.

    Most people get into medicine expecting to make big money someday. Which is one of the incentives towards to do well in school to get into medschool and then working your ass off for 5-6yrs in medschool to finally become a doctor. If it wasn't for the big rewards people wouldn't put in the big effort it takes to get into and through med school.


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    #72
    ballsymchugh
    Registered Users Posts: 7,936 ✭✭✭ballsymchugh


    southsiderosie wrote: »
    I disagree.

    Anyone, regardless of their field, would like to be treated in a comparable way to their colleagues. This includes both wages and working conditions. If the wages are lower in Ireland, and the HSE is run more poorly than other health care systems, then I don't blame physicians from looking elsewhere.

    That said, I do think that if the government (i.e. the public) is footing the bill for medical education, then doctors should have some obligation to work for the HSE (for at least a set period of time). If they want to opt out, then they should refund the state for their education. But I'm not Irish, so I have no idea how this works - who picks up the cost of medical school?

    actually, the free fees were brought in around 95, 96, so if my maths are alright, those students that went into med school back then would be lucky if they're at consultant level now. those that have forked out for 3rd level fees and made SFA during non-consultant years are probably just looking for payback.
    i've no problem with future consultants having to take some kind of hit though, seeing as though they will have benefited from saving a small fortune on university fees.


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    #73
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    pragmatic1 wrote: »
    Cool beans because I'm a skilled professional myself and I'd love to make even half of that a year. Where about is this planet again?

    If you have a law degree and work at a private firm, are an associate at a large bank with an MBA, or a physician - even at a government clinic - you are going to make more than 100K base salary in the US - and this is just starting out. High demand positions that require an advanced degree are going to have six-figure salaries in most market economies - emphasis on the high demand part.


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    #74
    pragmatic1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,573 ✭✭✭pragmatic1


    Wow. The whiff of entitlement is strong in this thread. Oiche mhaith.


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    #75
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    pragmatic1 wrote: »
    Wow. The whiff of entitlement is strong in this thread. Oiche mhaith.

    It's being overwhelmed by the stench of begrudgery.


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    #76
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Being remunerated in line with that & market rates does not mean they are just "in it for the money".

    Let's not pretend there are 'market rates' like there is some sort of natural market equilibrium arrived at when, on the contrary, the public underwrites the training of medical people and the medical profession itself is made deliberately difficult to enter.

    If there was such a thing as market equilibrium in the medical profession there'd be a hell of a lot more doctors and consultants being paid a lot less and on performance rather than qualification.


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    #77
    Duggys Housemate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    pragmatic1 wrote: »
    Wow. The whiff of entitlement is strong in this thread. Oiche mhaith.

    The whiff of whiny envy and lack of logic is stronger.

    ( I'm not a doctor and think consultants are underpaid at 116k)


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    #78
    Montroseee
    Registered Users Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭Montroseee


    southsiderosie wrote: »
    It's being overwhelmed by the stench of begrudgery.

    Are you in the medical profession yourself?


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    #79
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,523 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    pragmatic1 wrote: »
    Wow. The whiff of entitlement is strong in this thread. Oiche mhaith.

    People who spend 14 years studying and learning, then progress onto a particularly difficult job are entitled to over 100k so I won't argue with you there.


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    #80
    Duggys Housemate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    Let's not pretend there are 'market rates' like there is some sort of natural market equilibrium arrived at when, on the contrary, the public underwrites the training of medical people and the medical profession itself is made deliberately difficult to enter.

    If there was such a thing as market equilibrium in the medical profession there'd be a hell of a lot more doctors and consultants being paid a lot less and on performance rather than qualification.


    You mean like in the US where they are actually paid a lot more?


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    #81
    af_thefragile
    Registered Users Posts: 7,171 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    NiallSparky wrote: »
    Your skills obviously aren't in as much demand. As has been pointed out, consultants can early 200/300k abroad, why settle for just 100k?

    Truth is most doctors I know will be pretty happy with a 100k consultant job as long as its not in some small hospital in the middle of nowhere rural Ireland.

    The other side of the story is HSE hasn't increased the number of consultant jobs by any significant margin to make any change. There's still a massive bottleneck after specialist training to be able to get a consultant job. Most people after completing their specialist training are left jobless. They have to resort to doing other below consultant jobs that aren't training jobs which there aren't many around or as most do, travel to USA, Canada, Australia, NZ etc. to do a few years of fellowship training there and then most decide to settle down there with a nice consultant job rather than coming back to Ireland and try their luck towards getting that consultant job for less pay and longer hours that what they could get in other countries.


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    #82
    donegal11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 689 ✭✭✭donegal11


    Don't these consultants also make money of private patients which they see in there publicly funded office in the hospitals. They are effectively having the best of both worlds.


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    #83
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    You mean like in the US where they are actually paid a lot more?

    Because that's a true free market where the costs of healthcare have reached equilibrium?

    That's funny.


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    #84
    Montroseee
    Registered Users Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭Montroseee


    donegal11 wrote: »
    Don't these consultants also make money of private patients which they see in there publicly funded office in the hospitals. They are effectively having the best of both worlds.

    Yes, they can do both public and private work.


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    #85
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    Montroseee wrote: »
    Are you in the medical profession yourself?

    No, I am a lowly underpaid academic researcher in the social sciences who passed up the chance to go to law school in order to pursue a PhD. So I'll spend double the time to finish (6 versus 3 years), and when I graduate, I will make less than half the money (lawyers at large private firms start at around $160K). But that was my decision - I worked as a legal assistant at a private law firm (for more money than I am making now :o) and I thought it was horribly boring.


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    #86
    Duggys Housemate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    Because that's a true free market where the costs of healthcare have reached equilibrium?

    That's funny.

    Explain

    1) why it's isn't a free market
    2) why you think that an advanced degree like medicine would not earn more money, not less, even if you could prove 1)

    To help you a bit with 2) - cosmetic surgery is as free market as you can get in the US. Mostly paid for with cash rather than insurance with the exception of reconstructive surgery. Cosmetic surgeons easily become millionaires.

    The evidence is that if we had a totally free market system for health doctors and consultants would be earning much much more.


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    #87
    take everything
    Registered Users Posts: 9,805 ✭✭✭take everything


    People who don't want to work for significantly less than their colleagues (who do exactly the same job) leave to find job that pay better.

    So? :confused:


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    #88
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    Explain

    1) why it's isn't a free market
    2) why you think that an advanced degree like medicine would not earn more money, not less, even if you could prove 1)

    To help you a bit with 2) - cosmetic surgery is as free market as you can get in the US. Mostly paid for with cash rather than insurance with the exception of reconstructive surgery. Cosmetic surgeons easily become millionaires.

    The evidence is that if we had a totally free market system for health doctors and consultants would be earning much much more.

    Well, not necessarily, given the extent to which professional associations block expanding the number of available slots for medical school and residencies. It may be a market system for patients in the US, but there is still a rather medieval guild system when it comes to physicians.


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    #89
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 24,015 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Any old fool can be a consultant, and if they do get out of their depth, they can always start a thread in AH asking for advice, and we can give them step by step instructions to help get their patients out of the sh1t.


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    #90
    Montroseee
    Registered Users Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭Montroseee


    southsiderosie wrote: »
    No, I am a lowly underpaid academic researcher in the social sciences who passed up the chance to go to law school in order to pursue a PhD. So I'll spend double the time to finish (6 versus 3 years), and when I graduate, I will make less than half the money (lawyers at large private firms start at around $160K). But that was my decision - I worked as a legal assistant at a private law firm (for more money than I am making now :o) and I thought it was horribly boring.

    Didn't know lawyers start on that amount, would have thought it was about half that, maybe I'm in the wrong business :o


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    #91
    wonski
    Registered Users Posts: 13,685 ✭✭✭✭wonski


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    Any old fool can be a consultant, and if they do get out of their depth, they can always start a thread in AH asking for advice, and we can give them step by step instructions to help get their patients out of the sh1t.

    Almost forgot this was After Hours after all. Thanks for reminding. We stayed on topic for at least 3 pages.


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