€116,000 Consultant positions being snubbed

dxhound2005

wolfpawnat wrote: »

You are paid the same regardless of what you work because on the books you are working 58 hours, but expected to do more.


This has been in a couple years already, it is sloth, he doesn't want to implement it because overall it would cost the HSE more money.

Is it the same for this contract?

The salary for a new recruit who can treat public and private patients dropped from €156,258 to €109,300.

Are they expected to do more than 58 hours public as well?

MMAGirl

WayneMolloy wrote: »

If the state has heavily subsided their training, then they should be made work, at a reduced pay scale, for x amount of time in a state hospital.

I dont think that is unfair.

would you want the same rule for all university courses in ireland?
what about the leaving cert. state subsidized too.
should we all therefore have our salaries reduced?
and we all already work for the state. we all pay taxes, consultants pay taxes
too.

WayneMolloy

MMAGirl wrote: »

would you want the same rule for all university courses in ireland?
what about the leaving cert. state subsidized too.
should we all therefore have our salaries reduced?
and we all already work for the state. we all pay taxes, consultants pay taxes
too.

In sectors where graduates f*ck off upon completion, yes. You are blessed that you are born in the EU. In America, you would be straddled with student loans fees and be made to work for an NGO - just to defer the fees for a year or two.

The state has made an investment in young peoples education. If, upon graduation, they refuse to take up employment in sectors that are short of staff - they should be made pay the full fees.

MMAGirl

WayneMolloy wrote: »

In sectors where graduates f*ck off upon completion, yes. You are blessed that you are born in the EU. In America, you would be straddled with student loans fees and be made to work for an NGO - just to defer the fees for a year or two.

The state has made an investment in young peoples education. If, upon graduation, they refuse to take up employment in sectors that are short of staff - they should be made pay the full fees.

that would be almost all courses so.
and dont forget the tax payer
pays for your education all your life. so by your reckoning anyone who ha had an education at all in ireland must work for reduced salary for x amount of time.
i hope you have done as you expect others to do.

Cian92

Here Precious2 wrote: »

Agencies are placing newly qualified accountants in jobs for 25-30k. Whats the point in studying for 5 or 6 years to get a professional qualification?. Nearly better off driving a bus and getting 40k a year. No offence to bus drivers btw.

As someone who is a trainee accountant, I can tell you newly qualified accountants are on up to double that, and our job would be alot easier than that of a consultant. We don't save lives.

wolfpawnat

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Is it the same for this contract?

The salary for a new recruit who can treat public and private patients dropped from €156,258 to €109,300.

Are they expected to do more than 58 hours public as well?

From what I gather of the article. It is the public practice that is being referred to. So that is for their legally obliged up to 58 hour week, plus whatever else is dumped on their lap, though they are not held to ransom like more junior doctors, who can be forced into positions where they are working nearly 100 hours a week. Then many, but not all of those public consultants have private practice as well. When they have private practice, they usually are not taken for such fools in the public area too it would seem.

wolfpawnat

Cian92 wrote: »

As someone who is a trainee accountant, I can tell you newly qualified accountants are on up to double that, and our job would be alot easier than that of a consultant. We don't save lives.

Some vets can get over 40 grand a year just out of college, but some places offer a pathetic 29 grand in comparison, I dare say many areas are using the recession to chance their arm to get as many spots filled as possible for as cheap as possible.

omahaid

I think we should double the pay to attract the best consultants to Ireland. I mean, the country's loaded and we're not competing with other countries so this should work.

Grayson

WayneMolloy wrote: »

In sectors where graduates f*ck off upon completion, yes. You are blessed that you are born in the EU. In America, you would be straddled with student loans fees and be made to work for an NGO - just to defer the fees for a year or two.

The state has made an investment in young peoples education. If, upon graduation, they refuse to take up employment in sectors that are short of staff - they should be made pay the full fees.

So, the second a child enters junior infants we start the clock ticking and start charging them. Now you may say that's unfair, they'll start paying tax some day and they'll pay it back. But so will consultants. And if they, like anyone else decides to leave the country, others who take up jobs here will pay the tax too. Quite an amount on something like 100k a year.

But you'd rather they pay directly themselves


You do realise that besides the exams, most of the reason a consultant is a consultant is because of their experience. And that's work that they do for the state.

steddyeddy

Dr Nic wrote: »

Its not complex really. But 36 hours a day for 12 yrs dealing with a public that hates you from what this thread suggests is hard...

I dont know why im defending them. Drive me nuts sometimes too but when sh1t hits the fan youd pay anything to have them around

As I said I have a lot of time for doctors. Leaving out the academic side of things it is not a job I could do. My friends tell me stories of people breaking down crying after 60-80 hour weeks as junior doctors. Then being told long training hours are necessary in order to provide adequate training.

If we don't fill these positions at this level of pay then we cannot force people to do the job but we it isn't going to help their public image.

Grayson

steddyeddy wrote: »

As I said I have a lot of time for doctors. Leaving out the academic side of things it is not a job I could do. My friends tell me stories of people breaking down crying after 60-80 hour weeks as junior doctors. Then being told long training hours are necessary in order to provide adequate training.

If we don't fill these positions at this level of pay then we cannot force people to do the job but we it isn't going to help their public image.

half of all medical graduates leave clinical medicine after 12 months. It's a bitch hard job.

If there's one major way I'd change medicine in this country, it's the way students get into medical courses. An 18yo signing up for it because they have some idea what it's going to be like or they go for it because they have the points.

wolfpawnat

Grayson wrote: »

half of all medical graduates leave clinical medicine after 12 months. It's a bitch hard job.

If there's one major way I'd change medicine in this country, it's the way students get into medical courses. An 18yo signing up for it because they have some idea what it's going to be like or they go for it because they have the points.

Some people decide at 16 to be a doctor without knowing the stresses and work involved in the job. But if you were honest with them would any at all go for it?

Grayson

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Some people decide at 16 to be a doctor without knowing the stresses and work involved in the job. But if you were honest with them would any at all go for it?

Yep. I think they would.
And the horrible thing about the points system is that lets say the cutoff is at 580, does that mean someone at 570 wouldn't be good enough to be a doctor? they need to reform the entry. One good thing I've seen is the conversion course for graduates. So a graduate in the sciences can transfer over.

April O Neill

MMAGirl wrote: »

im sure it will stop when the begrudging stops.
its always the same.
some group is shown as doing well.
begrudgers appear all over the place.

thats too much.
i would do it for half that.
they dont deserve that.
116k is too much for a consultant.
60k is too much for a teacher.
some people have pensionable jobs and shouldnt.
pensioners get a bus pass and i dont.
homeowners own a house and i dont.
and so on.

well fcucking go train in that field and get that job if its so easy for you to do.
everyone seems to think they can do everyone elses job.

what a great country ireland is.
everyone has so many skills.
everyone can do any job that another guy has and will do it for less.
everyone is an economist and knows how to run a country.
but usually thats just everyone who never quite made it in life to somewhere they are happy with and are just jealous of those who did. makes them feel better to try to drag others down.
funny how its more prevalent in ireland than anywhere else.

Well, that's quite a rant. All the hoary old touchstones are there - jealousy, begrudgery, how it's somehow endemic to Ireland.

Do tell, how did you quantify that begrudgery runs at a higher rate on this rocky outcrop? :pac:

wolfpawnat

Grayson wrote: »

Yep. I think they would.
And the horrible thing about the points system is that lets say the cutoff is at 580, does that mean someone at 570 wouldn't be good enough to be a doctor? they need to reform the entry. One good thing I've seen is the conversion course for graduates. So a graduate in the sciences can transfer over.

Well those that would then apply would be under no illusions and even if they were going solely for the money, they would know it is not an easy task.

The entire points system is flawed, what has French/German/Spanish/Irish and English literature got to do with medicine or veterinary or even physio, but you are depending on points from them to get it. Same with History or Biology for a language studies third level. Having to make people do a science degree, then work their áss off the graduate entry exam for the pleasure of paying 15,000 a year then for four years for medicine when they only failed to get higher than a B1 in a subject completely irrelevant to their chosen field is wrong.

dlouth15

Just to counter the long hours stuff people have been posting about consultants, here's the current contract they work under:

http://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/Resources/Terms_Conditions_of_Employment/ccontract/ContractNov2012.pdf

The Consultant is contracted to undertake such duties / provide such services
as are set out in this Contract in the manner specified for 37 hours per week.

Also:

Irrespective of whether the Consultant delivers the 37 hour commitment
under Section 7 a) i), ii) or iii) above, the Consultant will not be obliged to
work more than 8 hours in any one day. This will be structured as a single
continuous episode.

This seems fairly reasonable for a salary in line with countries in Northern Europe.

wolfpawnat

dlouth15 wrote: »

Just to counter the long hours stuff people have been posting about consultants, here's the current contract they work under:

http://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/Resources/Terms_Conditions_of_Employment/ccontract/ContractNov2012.pdf



Also:



This seems fairly reasonable for a salary in line with countries in Northern Europe.

That is what is being said, practice on the other hand is nothing like the rule book. Some senior consultants have excellent pay and enviable hours, sadly, though the rules say otherwise, others are taken advantage of. Same as junior doctors.

Icemancometh

dlouth15 wrote: »

Just to counter the long hours stuff people have been posting about consultants, here's the current contract they work under:

http://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/Resources/Terms_Conditions_of_Employment/ccontract/ContractNov2012.pdf



Also:



This seems fairly reasonable for a salary in line with countries in Northern Europe.

As a counterpoint, finished a 24+ hour shift this afternoon. My consultant was still working when I left, and will put in a few hours today, same yesterday, same tomorrow. I don't follow my consultants around, and they don't do NCHD hours by any means, but they blow 37 hours out of the water.

Also, the €116k salary is for a public only contract. Some people were saying earlier that consultants could top this up with private practice; not allowed with this contract type.

Dr Nic

dlouth15 wrote: »

Just to counter the long hours stuff people have been posting about consultants, here's the current contract they work under:

http://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/Resources/Terms_Conditions_of_Employment/ccontract/ContractNov2012.pdf



Also:



This seems fairly reasonable for a salary in line with countries in Northern Europe.

Are you for real?
36 hour shifts upto 2x per wk for 12 yrs to get there.

Try for me to stay up all night tonight watching movies or something, then please post back here tomorow at this time. Youd still be 2 hours short of 36 by then

dlouth15

wolfpawnat wrote: »

That is what is being said, practice on the other hand is nothing like the rule book. Some senior consultants have excellent pay and enviable hours, sadly, though the rules say otherwise, others are taken advantage of. Same as junior doctors.

What sort of hours are typical for consultants (excluding private work)?

dlouth15

Dr Nic wrote: »

Are you for real?

I simply quoted from the current contract for consultants. It is there in legally binding black and white.

It seems to me that on the face of it, the salary of 116K and working conditions outlined in the contract seem reasonable.

dlouth15

Icemancometh wrote: »

As a counterpoint, finished a 24+ hour shift this afternoon. My consultant was still working when I left, and will put in a few hours today, same yesterday, same tomorrow. I don't follow my consultants around, and they don't do NCHD hours by any means, but they blow 37 hours out of the water.

But your not a consultant. This thread is about pay for consultants in Ireland.

wolfpawnat

dlouth15 wrote: »

What sort of hours are typical for consultants (excluding private work)?

Differs. It depends on the field of specialty, number of doctors in that hospital working that field, travelling. My son's cardiologist was based in Crumlin (obviously for a pediatric cardiologist) but he used travel to Limerick once a month for consultations there. As it was only once a month, you can imagine the number of patients he had in the whole mid western area that were being seen publicly in that one day, plus his travelling down that morning as he would have had clinics the day before in Dublin or another part of the country. Paediatric specialists and intrinsic organ specialists (such as cardiologists) would have more hours as there is a lot of cardiac issues in Ireland, so more people to deal with, and children specialists are a field within a field, so I would imagine their work schedule is far more hectic than some other areas such as radiology that would probably have more consultants qualified and are not required to travel the country to aid patients.

wolfpawnat

dlouth15 wrote: »

I simply quoted from the current contract for consultants. It is there in legally binding black and white.

It seems to me that on the face of it, the salary of 116K and working conditions outlined in the contract seem reasonable.

European Working Hours Directive states in Black and White legally what junior doctors SHOULD be working, reality is a far cry from it sadly. 30 something hour shifts, no sleep, 2 food breaks, that would be deemed harsh working conditions in sweatshops I would imagine.

Icemancometh

dlouth15 wrote: »

But your not a consultant. This thread is about pay for consultants in Ireland.

Yeah, but I was referring to my consultant, who'll easily break 60 hours this week, and that's routine.

Canis Lupus

dlouth15 wrote: »

But your not a consultant. This thread is about pay for consultants in Ireland.

But you're bringing contracts into this and he's clearly stating a consultant doesn't work those hours so his opinion is quite valid.

In fact... Whilst I've been lucky to mostly avoid it in my personal working life I know many many MAAAAAANY people 'contracted' to do x amount of hours a week but often go way over that. My brother working in E&Y would be on his laptop working at all hours eg.

I wonder how much experience of the real world (in relation to working) you have if you think contracted hours are something set in stone because they bloody well aren't.

MMAGirl

April O Neill wrote: »

Well, that's quite a rant. All the hoary old touchstones are there - jealousy, begrudgery, how it's somehow endemic to Ireland.

Do tell, how did you quantify that begrudgery runs at a higher rate on this rocky outcrop? :pac:

Experience is all.
It runs at a particularly high rate in your posts too.

steddyeddy

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Some people decide at 16 to be a doctor without knowing the stresses and work involved in the job. But if you were honest with them would any at all go for it?

I think people still would in fairness. Deciding to be a doctor at 18 is crazy though. Some of my American mates went to college on the GI bill after serving fours years in the army. I know the army isn't for everyone but waiting a few years before going to college is a good idea. The drop out rate in sciencewe is also crazy. The leaving certain alone does not prepare students for science. We could cut a lot of waste by changing things.

ressem

The hospital management are too cheap/shortsighted to provide a reliable upskilling-during-work program to get people between graduate level and consultant level.

Instead they abuse these critical employees at junior levels with ridiculous workloads and hours, or don't offer places at all forcing graduates to the US or the continent to gain the skills they need.

Then the Indo ascribes the shortage of Irish people who have come through the system arriving at consultant level as "Snubbing the salary". Tabloid rubbish.

http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=21295
€165 million is paid to trainee doctors in overtime. An average of €31K per trainee. Certainly in the larger hospitals they should be hiring to comply with the overtime law instead of minimizing headcounts. Then maybe there would fewer cases of burnout and emigration.

wolfpawnat

steddyeddy wrote: »

I think people still would in fairness. Deciding to be a doctor at 18 is crazy though. Some of my American mates went to college on the GI bill after serving fours years in the army. I know the army isn't for everyone but waiting a few years before going to college is a good idea. The drop out rate in sciencewe is also crazy. The leaving certain alone does not prepare students for science. We could cut a lot of waste by changing things.

I myself left UCC science after two months, only because I realised I had the points for nursing in UCD. But it was one hell of a shock, huge drop out and fail rates in general.