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€116,000 Consultant positions being snubbed

Montroseee

First of all I bear no resent towards people in the medical profession, I know several and they have put everything into their academic performance from a very young age. Despite this, I found the the contents of this article shocking.

I know they have received significant cuts in pay but so has literally everyone else - I know pharmacists on (no exaggeration) half the pay they were 6 or 7 years ago. Putting newly recruited members on lower contracts than existing has been common in the private sector for years. Seemingly consultants view themselves untouchable.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/116000-hospital-jobs-go-unfilled-29163747.html

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southsiderosie

Montroseee wrote: »

The government does.

OK, so how does the system work - you go to school for 4 years, then are a junior doctor for a certain period, then a consultant? And the government pays for it? And when you are a junior doctor you are in a HSE hospital?

Chuck Stone

Montroseee wrote: »

A similar consultant in Germany will be doing well to ever break 100k, same story with the UK.

Advertise in Germany and England I reckon and reduce funding for training consultants here (if it's funded by the public).

steddyeddy

Dr Nic wrote: »

Well does he get rostered to be on call 24 hours a day maybe 2x a week forever? And get to go to court when one of his overworked underlings makes a mistake, not even him

All in (esp life style and villification deserved or no) irish consultants are not well paid vs uk aus canada nz. Hate all you want but who do you want in charge when you have your heart attack?

Someone not in it simply for he money to be honest. Someone who is interested primarily in cardiovascular medicine and was driven to get the job because of an interest in the workings of the heart on a biochemical, mechanical and physiological level. Not someone who doesn't get out of bed for less than 100k a year.

I'm a scientist and I work extremely long hours. You can be that the chap who discovered cyclin dependent kinases was working very long hours. My phd supervisor doesnt leave college until 3 o clock every morning and then comes gets up at 6.30 to work on lecture notes and monitor research.

People keep going on about how complex the job is but I doubt it's more complex than someone working on M-theory or someone even working on the structure of a membrane embedded protein.

Montroseee

southsiderosie wrote: »

OK, so how does the system work - you go to school for 4 years, then are a junior doctor for a certain period, then a consultant? And the government pays for it? And when you are a junior doctor you are in a HSE hospital?

You go to medical school for 5 years, then do 1 year as an intern to become a junior doctor. It usually takes a minimum of 12 years from then on to get a consultant position.

Amirani

southsiderosie wrote: »

OK, so how does the system work - you go to school for 4 years, then are a junior doctor for a certain period, then a consultant? And the government pays for it? And when you are a junior doctor you are in a HSE hospital?

It's longer than 4 years but the rest is correct as far as I know.

Turtwig

Some consultants have to work in quite frankly sh*t conditions. I'd be pissed if someone offered me 100k for the work they have to do. I know it sounds like a lot of money and I do think the medical profession especially G.Ps overvalue themselves monetary wise, but I think that the financial packages isn't the only reason consultants are ignoring Irish Hospitals. To use an extreme analogy, which I think conveys the point but obviously not to 1:1 fidelity, it's the different between working for Intel in Ireland to FoxConn (with the anti-suicide nets outside) in China for the same wage.

wolfpawnat

HondaSami wrote: »

Over from where? how do you know they are just as qualified?

To work in Ireland you are obliged to sit the Irish Medical Council exams. If you do not pass the exams you are clearly not to the same standard as Irish doctors and will not be offered the job. There are also many doctors from other countries that are just as, if not more able for the job than some of ours. I doubt the previous poster was suggesting we take a witch doctor from some remote country with no health system, though with the state of the HSE these days, it may be a step up.

Jumboman wrote: »

It just shows that they didnt get into medicine to help people but to line their own pockets.

I swear on my life, when my OH was studying medicine (he went into veterinary after a year because, and I quote "I rather the animals as my patients rather than my work colleagues") there was one guy that was doing an accountancy elective because "he wanted to be able to count how much he was earning!" I genuinely thought he was joking.......he wasn't!

A lot of them doing because their daddies did it. Apparently having a daddy a consultant made them feel they were above many of the rest of their classmates, regardless of their personal abilities they liked to ride on the coat-tails of their parents!

[Deleted User]

steddyeddy wrote: »

People keep going on about how complex the job is but I doubt it's more complex than someone working on M-theory or someone even working on the structure of a membrane embedded protein.

Someone working on m theory doesn't have the power of life/death and responsibility and worry that goes with it every single day, and can't just clock out at 5pm.
Being remunerated in line with that & market rates does not mean they are just "in it for the money". If someone just wanted the money, I daresay there are less weighty jobs they could do, and possibly for a lot more money.

steddyeddy

I have friends who are Dr.s and they defiantly didn't enter it simply for the money. I'm always suspicious of people studying medicine who keep ranting on about the money etc. When I call them on it they keep talking about the hours ect.

Anyone real scientist or physician should primarily have a passion for the research or they would I would have serious doubts about their potential. Do you think the biochemists and geneticists who made up the team that recently eradicated diabetes type one in a dog got that far because they were thinking primarily about the money?

Amazing work by people like feynman or Kary Mullis (invented polymerase chain reaction mechanism for DNA amplification) was accomplished because of their passion and not because of what was going into their wallets.

Joe Hart

That pay is mickey mouse money and I mean that genuinely.

Taking home 5K a month? You can do very little with that. Take it from me, some that reaches the level of consultant is highly skilled and has worker far harder and longer than the 99% of people.

southsiderosie

steddyeddy wrote: »

Someone not in it simply for he money to be honest. Someone who is interested primarily in cardiovascular medicine and was driven to get the job because of an interest in the workings of the heart on a biochemical, mechanical and physiological level. Not someone who doesn't get out of bed for less than 100k a year.

I'm a scientist and I work extremely long hours. You can be that the chap who discovered cyclin dependent kinases was working very long hours. My phd supervisor doesnt leave college until 3 o clock every morning and then comes gets up at 6.30 to work on lecture notes and monitor research.

People keep going on about how complex the job is but I doubt it's more complex than someone working on M-theory or someone even working on the structure of a membrane embedded protein.

Why do you think that someone is just in it for the money if they are refusing to be underpaid?

Also, why are you comparing academic research to being a physician? Both the training and the stakes are quite different - and I say this as an academic researcher myself.

discus

Praetorian Saighdiuir wrote: »

Hey hey Dr. Disc

I can be your co-consultant. When you balls up il take the blame but I want ALL the lollypops!

We have a deal!

I'm glad you're willing to take the blame. There's gonna be a lot of that!

Amirani

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I swear on my life, when my OH was studying medicine (he went into veterinary after a year because, and I quote "I rather the animals as my patients rather than my work colleagues") there was one guy that was doing an accountancy elective because "he wanted to be able to count how much he was earning!" I genuinely thought he was joking.......he wasn't!

A lot of them doing because their daddies did it. Apparently having a daddy a consultant made them feel they were above many of the rest of their classmates, regardless of their personal abilities they liked to ride on the coat-tails of their parents!

You'll find this in any college course in the country. I think it's unfair to make it seem like it's only in medicine you'd find such an attitude.

BarryLyndon

steddyeddy wrote: »

People keep going on about how complex the job is but I doubt it's more complex than someone working on M-theory or someone even working on the structure of a membrane embedded protein.

To be honest, i would advocate the idea that a medic who has had their education massively subsidised by the state should put a minimum amount of time into working within the public system in some capacity.

However the above quote shows that you have a very poor comprehension of the pressure these people operate under ( pun unintended).

Montroseee

Joe Hart wrote: »

That pay is mickey mouse money and I mean that genuinely.

Taking home 5K a month? You can do very little with that. Take it from me, some that reaches the level of consultant is highly skilled and has worker far harder and longer than the 99% of people.

If they applied a similar work ethic to a business/entrepreneurial venture they could be making many multiples of this annually.

steddyeddy

southsiderosie wrote: »

Why do you think that someone is just in it for the money if they are refusing to be underpaid?

Also, why are you comparing academic research to being a physician? Both the training and the stakes are quite different - and I say this as an academic researcher myself.

You and I have very different ideas of what underpaid is but I assume you mean under payed in comparison to their colleagues? My lecturer could make triple working for Pfizer for a frankly less taxing job.

steddyeddy

NiallSparky wrote: »

You'll find this in any college course in the country. I think it's unfair to make it seem like it's only in medicine you'd find such an attitude.

I think doctors are the hardest working people on earth by the way! I am friends with several of them and frankly the way the hospital treat them is akin to slave labor. I really really support their efforts to change things (I don't think the IMO is helping either) but I cannot stand by the attitude of some of these consultants.

southsiderosie

steddyeddy wrote: »

You and I have very different ideas of what underpaid is but I assume you mean under payed in comparison to their colleagues?

Yes.

steddyeddy wrote: »

My lecturer could make triple working for Pfizer for a frankly less taxing job.

But that is exactly my point - your lecturer chose not to, so why are you comparing the two? Plus, money aside, there are clear lifestyle and job security reasons to choose being a tenured faculty member over a private sector worker in a large corporation - the two are not comparable on multiple levels.

af_thefragile

steddyeddy wrote: »

You and I have very different ideas of what underpaid is but I assume you mean under payed in comparison to their colleagues? My lecturer could make triple working for Pfizer for a frankly less taxing job.

Working >30hrs every week for no money is being underpaid.
When your shift lasts from 8am till 4pm the following day and you only get a couple of hours of sleep if you're lucky while your shift has ended at 9am but you can't simply walk away when your shift ends and have to work extra hours for no pay.

When you're doing research, you don't have to make decisions that have serious consequences on the life of people. When you haven't slept for over 20hrs and its 4am in the morning and you're the only doctor on the ward to look after the patient who is deteriorating, its a completely different ball game from staying back late working on your research for your phd or nobel prize or whatever.

Dr Nic

steddyeddy wrote: »

Someone not in it simply for he money to be honest. Someone who is interested primarily in cardiovascular medicine and was driven to get the job because of an interest in the workings of the heart on a biochemical, mechanical and physiological level. Not someone who doesn't get out of bed for less than 100k a year.

I'm a scientist and I work extremely long hours. You can be that the chap who discovered cyclin dependent kinases was working very long hours. My phd supervisor doesnt leave college until 3 o clock every morning and then comes gets up at 6.30 to work on lecture notes and monitor research.

People keep going on about how complex the job is but I doubt it's more complex than someone working on M-theory or someone even working on the structure of a membrane embedded protein.

Its not complex really. But 36 hours a day for 12 yrs dealing with a public that hates you from what this thread suggests is hard...

I dont know why im defending them. Drive me nuts sometimes too but when sh1t hits the fan youd pay anything to have them around

ilovesleep

HondaSami wrote: »

Over from where? how do you know they are just as qualified?

I doubt very much we'll need to recruit much from abroad. Ireland opened it's boarders back in 2004 to eastern europeans. Many from eastern europe came for work. Many are highly qualified in their studies. We only opened up half of our country to them. Many weren't allowed to work in what they were qualified to do back home in their own country and they flooded the private sector in retail, hospitality, construction, manufacturing etc

I remember working in a job, years ago and working along side many Polish, who were qualified in teaching but couldn't teach here.

I wonder were many qualified in medicine, dentistry, etc? I'm some many came over with such papers and yet I never saw a Polish G.P or Dentist working here. Did you?

DylanII

Of course they aren't going to take it.

If doesnt matter how much you love your job if you are underpaid compared to everyone else in your sector then your not going to do it.

I would not be doing 18 years of Education for 116,000 when everyone else is getting 190,000z

Owen_S

Jumboman wrote: »

It just shows that they didnt get into medicine to help people but to line their own pockets.

How do you know they can't help people in alternative positions?

pragmatic1

MMAGirl wrote: »

100k is nothing. They can easily earn this abroad. Probably have a better standard of living too. And not have to listen to begrudging fcukers all day either.
Seems thats how it goes in Ireland now. Someone is always complaining if anyone else is doing better than them. We're Irish, lets drag em all down with us. Shame on them for being in a position to command a few bob.

"100k is nothing." What fcuking planet do you live on because I'd like to visit.

wonski

steddyeddy wrote: »

I think doctors are the hardest working people on earth by the way! I am friends with several of them and frankly the way the hospital treat them is akin to slave labor. I really really support their efforts to change things (I don't think the IMO is helping either) but I cannot stand by the attitude of some of these consultants.

I think the same, but at some point - let's be honest here - not every medical proffesional will be earning 300k or whatever they are dreaming of. It happens in every profession - some are lucky and got great job with great pay, some are not so lucky and have to work for the bottom pay scale. By lucky i mean some worked really hard, and some didn't. Some knew right people, and some didn't. Some made good impression at interview, and some didn't. Everyone knows their stories about average people having great job with even better pay. Not everyone gets that lucky.
I have to add that this job comes with big responsibility - this should be accounted for when discussing salary. But clearly, if one want to save lives, and make big bucks - then he is in wrong trade.

Montroseee

pragmatic1 wrote: »

"100k is nothing." What fcuking planet do you live on because I'd like to visit.

Reminds me of a certain K P M G associate

wonski

ilovesleep wrote: »

I doubt very much we'll need to recruit much from abroad. Ireland opened it's boarders back in 2004 to eastern europeans. Many from eastern europe came for work. Many are highly qualified in their studies. We only opened up half of our country to them. Many weren't allowed to work in what they were qualified to do back home in their own country and they flooded the private sector in retail, hospitality, construction, manufacturing etc

I remember working in a job, years ago and working along side many Polish, who were qualified in teaching but couldn't teach here.

I wonder were many qualified in medicine, dentistry, etc? I'm some many came over with such papers and yet I never saw a Polish G.P or Dentist working here. Did you?

There are many, and i mean MANY polish GP's - their speciality is polish patients with no english at all, or very little. Same with dentists.
There are still a lot of emigrants with no English - they struggle to communicate with English speaking GP, so they will go to their native one.

Duggys Housemate

DylanII wrote: »

Of course they aren't going to take it.

If doesnt matter how much you love your job if you are underpaid compared to everyone else in your sector then your not going to do it.

I would not be doing 18 years of Education for 116,000 when everyone else is getting 190,000z

It's the 18 years of poverty that people miss.

I get both annoyed and amused by what people think is a large amout of money. Soccer players, bankers, rock stars, lucky app developers, Russian oligarchs earn many multiples of what the most important workers in the country earn and most people don't care or just say " market forces".

Well with a full private sector health system doctors, surgeons and consultants would earn much more than they do now , and they can earn it in the US by emigrating. Most are therefore underpaid using market values.

southsiderosie

pragmatic1 wrote: »

"100k is nothing." What fcuking planet do you live on because I'd like to visit.

A planet where people who are skilled professionals regularly make over 100K, much of which gets eaten up by student loans and the high cost of living in major metropolitan areas?

af_thefragile

pragmatic1 wrote: »

"100k is nothing." What fcuking planet do you live on because I'd like to visit.

Specialist doctors in USA easily make well over 200-300K a year because much of healthcare there is private.

Even in countries like Germany, although the doctors don't make as much as they do here, the taxes aren't as high, the work environment is a million times better and the cost of living isn't as high as here. So you may not make as much but you're still happier and more satisfied with your job.

And although most medical students and junior doctors will give you some bull**** about doing medicine because they want to help people, truth is most people get into medicine for the same reason people get into any professional field. They want to do something they'll enjoy while having a secure and comfortable future which a field like medicine promises to give.

You can help people by volunteering in a soup kitchen if that's really what you want to do.