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Why would an Irish person wear a poppy ?

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Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 806 ✭✭✭getzls


    How does the Irish Government come into someone moving from one war to another for foreign armies?

    As my post. Says it all.:cool:


  • Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭whatsthetime


    getzls wrote: »
    As my post. Says it all.:cool:

    Your post says your ancestor fought for money in Spain and France. Did the Irish Government send him to either war?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,970 ✭✭✭Lenin Skynard


    getzls wrote: »
    As my post. Says it all.:cool:

    Can't see anything of note written by you on the last few pages. Maybe you should expand.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 806 ✭✭✭getzls


    uch wrote: »
    Back on topic,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I would wear a poppy because my Granda was a professional fighter, he fought in the spanish civil war, came home and had no work, joined the British army, was shipped to france, defended against the German and was evacuated from Dunkirk

    This is what i'm referring too.

    This person had priniciples, unlike the Irish Goverment of the time.

    Irelands shame.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 806 ✭✭✭getzls


    Can't see anything of note written by you on the last few pages. Maybe you should expand.
    None so blind as he who will not see.

    Especially an Irish Republican.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    this is going to upset the irish anti-poppy brigade,irish prime minister enda kenny,will attend a remembrance day ceremony in enniskillen on sunday,its also the towns 25th anniversary of the IRA poppy day bombing,on the same day,the irish minister for foreign affairs,eamon gilmore,will lay a wreath at belfast city hall cenotaph,


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    I think this attack on Fratton Fred is ridiculous. Britain were the dominant force, they became a civilised race long before we did. Naturally as an advanced race they spread their wings and endeavored to grow their empire. There was no evil intention behind this desire. They're humans, things went wrong, sh1t happened and its true that many atrocities were carried out by the British Army.

    They still however undeniably left a mark on our planet, the very language I type this post in is because of the British. Don't think that we're all innocent here either, Michael Collins had men killed in their beds, including the wrong targets. If you were to believe TP Coogan's account of the man (Who as an author is very favourably biased towards him) he was a very flawed individual and had a drinking problem.


    If you wrote this with your right handthen it may have made sense.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    getz wrote: »
    this is going to upset the irish anti-poppy brigade,irish prime minister enda kenny,will attend a remembrance day ceremony in enniskillen on sunday,its also the towns 25th anniversary of the IRA poppy day bombing,on the same day,the irish minister for foreign affairs,eamon gilmore,will lay a wreath at belfast city hall cenotaph,


    Who said it is wrong to remember ordinary soldiers?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    getzls wrote: »
    More likely because he was a man of high principals.

    Something the Irish Goverment of the time had little off.

    Irelands shame.

    Give examples please?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,609 ✭✭✭stoneill


    Plenty of reasons why Irish people should wear a poppy.

    Not one reason why not.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    I........ they became a civilised race long before we did........


    Course. We should all face west and do a few ritual bows in the morning, to the tune of Jerusalem.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    My father and his brothers all fought with the Irish regiments in the british Army,All left the BA when the troubles broke out in the North,None of them have/had took the BA pensions on principles of there own.My father never wore a poppy as I wouldn't, My uncles do, to salute there comrades who died.I personally don't have a problem with that, I can understand both sides as to the whys and wonts.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    stoneill wrote: »
    Plenty of reasons why Irish people should wear a poppy.

    Not one reason why not.


    I've laid out a number.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Nodin wrote: »
    I've laid out a number.

    and yet you wear Poppy. Surely you feel hypocritical for doing that?

    i would appreciate n answer this time, not more "But the Mau Maus" type defelction


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,476 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    stoneill wrote: »
    Plenty of reasons why Irish people should wear a poppy.

    Not one reason why not.

    You have obviously just read the last few posts :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    billybudd wrote: »
    Who said it is wrong to remember ordinary soldiers?

    err, that is what the poppy is for:confused:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,609 ✭✭✭stoneill


    Nodin wrote: »
    I've laid out a number.

    No - you laid out your opinions, not reasons.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    and yet you wear Poppy. Surely you feel hypocritical for doing that?

    What?
    i would appreciate n answer this time, not more "But the Mau Maus" type defelction

    Do please explain how referring to the Kenyan conflict is "defelction".....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    stoneill wrote: »
    No - you laid out your opinions, not reasons.


    So you don't think the fact that British troops have been involved in various colonial actions post 1945 qualifies as a reason? Why?


  • Registered Users Posts: 297 ✭✭RossyG


    I know of a former IRA 'volunteer' who now works for the Royal British Legion. How about that?

    (And yes, they know of his background)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,609 ✭✭✭stoneill


    Nodin wrote: »
    So you don't think the fact that British troops have been involved in various colonial actions post 1945 qualifies as a reason? Why?

    Because I can make the distinction between ordinary men and women who died in wars and the policies of greedy governments.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    err, that is what the poppy is for:confused:


    No Fred, as stated many time there is a difference, you dont need a church to believe in god for example.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    RossyG wrote: »
    I know of a former IRA 'volunteer' who now works for the Royal British Legion. How about that?

    (And yes, they know of his background)

    I know of former family who served in the BA in WWI, once they came home they then joined the IRA to fight for Irish freedom.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    stoneill wrote: »
    Because I can make the distinction between ordinary men and women who died in wars and the policies of greedy governments.


    And so the cycle continues.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    stoneill wrote: »
    Because I can make the distinction between ordinary men and women who died in wars and the policies of greedy governments.


    ....well for one thing, I'm not talking about the dead. Secondly, are you telling me you have no trouble with funds going towards the people who did this?
    Interrogation under torture was widespread. Many of the men were anally raped, using knives, broken bottles, rifle barrels, snakes and scorpions. A favourite technique was to hold a man upside down, his head in a bucket of water, while sand was rammed into his rectum with a stick. Women were gang-raped by the guards. People were mauled by dogs and electrocuted. The British devised a special tool which they used for first crushing and then ripping off testicles. They used pliers to mutilate women's breasts. They cut off inmates' ears and fingers and gouged out their eyes. They dragged people behind Land Rovers until their bodies disintegrated. Men were rolled up in barbed wire and kicked around the compound.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/23/british-empire-crimes-ignore-atrocities


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    Nodin wrote: »
    ....well for one thing, I'm not talking about the dead. Secondly, are you telling me you have no trouble with funds going towards the people who did this?


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/23/british-empire-crimes-ignore-atrocities


    FFS Nodin, dont you know they were just trying to make the world a better place.;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    Nodin wrote: »
    ....well for one thing, I'm not talking about the dead. Secondly, are you telling me you have no trouble with funds going towards the people who did this?


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/23/british-empire-crimes-ignore-atrocities


    FFS Nodin, dont you know they were just trying to make the world a better place.;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,165 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Nodin wrote: »
    ....well for one thing, I'm not talking about the dead. Secondly, are you telling me you have no trouble with funds going towards the people who did this?


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/23/british-empire-crimes-ignore-atrocities

    Still refusing to believe that the perpetrators are long since dead and probably never lived in Ireland anyway? They wouldn't be getting the benefit of the poppy fund in the UK, let alone here, they being dead and all.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    Still refusing to believe that the perpetrators are long since dead and probably never lived in Ireland anyway? They wouldn't be getting the benefit of the poppy fund in the UK, let alone here, they being dead and all.


    They're far more likely to be alive than veterans of both world wars (which you never mention to people who keep harping on about that, for some reason)and it typifies the actions that Britian fought during the close of Empire.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,165 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Nodin wrote: »
    They're far more likely to be alive than veterans of both world wars (which you never mention to people who keep harping on about that, for some reason)and it typifies the actions that Britian fought during the close of Empire.

    I don't know what you're getting at here.

    It's wishful thinking on your part that any of them are alive at this stage.

    .. and I still doubt that ony of them ever lived here, they would have been hounded out or worse.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    I don't know what you're getting at here.

    .......

    The funds raised by the poppy go towards ex-service personnell. Yet you've never mentioned the whole 'they're all dead now' line when this kind of thing comes up.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81470005&postcount=82

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81514346&postcount=363

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81523815&postcount=458

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81545000&postcount=520

    A bit of consistency please.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    Nodin wrote: »
    ....well for one thing, I'm not talking about the dead. Secondly, are you telling me you have no trouble with funds going towards the people who did this?


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/23/british-empire-crimes-ignore-atrocities

    For someone who frequently calls people out for making ill judgements on groups of people like muslims for example, you seem pretty quick to throw your standards out the window when it comes to judging the british soldiers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,165 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Nodin wrote: »
    The funds raised by the poppy go towards ex-service personnell. Yet you've never mentioned the whole 'they're all dead now' line when this kind of thing comes up.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81470005&postcount=82

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81514346&postcount=363

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81523815&postcount=458

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81545000&postcount=520

    A bit of consistency please.

    Why would my opinion be consistent with those of other people?:confused:

    You're the one banging on about the atrocities committed by British forces in the latter days of the empire. WW1 and WW2 were completely different actions, world wars in fact.

    Why would I need to mention "they're all dead" when referring to those who served in WW1 and WW2, or are you trying to tell me that the British spent the whole time committing atrocities during those conflicts?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭Feathers


    For someone who frequently calls people out for making ill judgements on groups of people like muslims for example, you seem pretty quick to throw your standards out the window when it comes to judging the british soldiers.

    You're talking about judging people as groups: Nodin, nor I nor anyone else on this thread who have said they won't were a poppy haven't judged British soldiers as a group — you're the one who's doing that by saying that 'yes, some British soldiers committed atrocities, but they're not all bad — look to WWI/II' (you plural, i.e. people in support of the poppy).

    But the poppy is to support the veterans and honour the war dead of the British army — all of them — since the first world war. It's also not a symbol to represent opposition to war or about remembering all those that fought regardless of which side they were on (that's the white poppy, not the one sold by RBL).

    Surely someone who disagrees with judging people as a group will disagree to the red poppy — Let those who should be honoured for WWII be honoured & let those that should be disgraced for NI & other colonial ventures be judged on those merits, not on the memory of WWI/II.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    Feathers wrote: »
    You're talking about judging people as groups: Nodin, nor I nor anyone else on this thread who have said they won't were a poppy haven't judged British soldiers as a group — you're the one who's doing that by saying that 'yes, some British soldiers committed atrocities, but they're not all bad — look to WWI/II' (you plural, i.e. people in support of the poppy).

    But the poppy is to support the veterans and honour the war dead of the British army — all of them — since the first world war. It's also not a symbol to represent opposition to war or about remembering all those that fought regardless of which side they were on (that's the white poppy, not the one sold by RBL).

    Surely someone who disagrees with judging people as a group will disagree to the red poppy — Let those who should be honoured for WWII be honoured & let those that should be disgraced for NI & other colonial ventures be judged on those merits, not on the memory of WWI/II.

    What about the majority of good soldiers who served post WWII? The wars they fought in may be unjust but thats something that the politicians of the time should be blamed for. The decent majority who served post WWII have as much right to be commemorated as those who serve post WW2.

    As for the red poppy the RBL supports the veterans and a lot of people in the UK at least will personally know someone whether friend or family so to them supporting that charity and wearing that poppy is relevant to them. Given that a lot of people in Ireland have joined over the years there are many people in Ireland who will wear it for the same reason.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    For someone who frequently calls people out for making ill judgements on groups of people like muslims for example, you seem pretty quick to throw your standards out the window when it comes to judging the british soldiers.


    ...so those weren't British soldiers, acting under orders?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    Why would my opinion be consistent with those of other people?:confused:

    You're the one banging on about the atrocities committed by British forces in the latter days of the empire. WW1 and WW2 were completely different actions, world wars in fact.

    Why would I need to mention "they're all dead" when referring to those who served in WW1 and WW2, or are you trying to tell me that the British spent the whole time committing atrocities during those conflicts?

    I'm asking that you point out to those saying its ok to buy the poppy because of ww1 and WWII that those people are more than likely dead. Thats what I'm referring to with 'consistency'. They are, logically, far more likely to be dead than those who served in Aden, Iraq or Cyprus.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭Rascasse


    Nodin wrote: »
    ...so those weren't British soldiers, acting under orders?

    Firstly, your quote doesn't specify if they were British forces (from Britain) or local forces working for the state.

    Secondly, as you say "working under orders". The people responsible for practically all atrocities that Britain may have committed over the centuries would be those sat in Whitehall or in the field with stars on their shoulders. God forbid you defy an order. Shot at best or glasshouse at worst. And, lets face it, your average Captain or Colonel won't be the ones needing help from the British Legion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    Nodin wrote: »
    ...so those weren't British soldiers, acting under orders?

    Theres nothing in that article you linked to that proves the soldiers that committed the acts of torture you quoted were doing so under orders. This could have been the acts of sociopathic individuals. Nor does it prove that all British soldiers in Kenya carried out these acts.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Rascasse wrote: »
    Firstly, your quote doesn't specify if they were British forces (from Britain) or local forces working for the state.

    Secondly, as you say "working under orders". The people responsible for practically all atrocities that Britain may have committed over the centuries would be those sat in Whitehall or in the field with stars on their shoulders. God forbid you defy an order. Shot at best or glasshouse at worst. And, lets face it, your average Captain or Colonel won't be the ones needing help from the British Legion.


    ....maybe they should have tried that line in the trials after WWII.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Theres nothing in that article you linked to that proves the soldiers that committed the acts of torture you quoted were doing so under orders. This could have been the acts of sociopathic individuals. Nor does it prove that all British soldiers in Kenya carried out these acts.


    Ahh denial. Lovely. Bit odd they were destroying documents then...
    Among the documents that appear to have been destroyed were: records of the abuse of Mau Mau insurgents detained by British colonial authorities, who were tortured and sometimes murdered; reports that may have detailed the alleged massacre of 24 unarmed villagers in Malaya by soldiers of the Scots Guards in 1948; most of the sensitive documents kept by colonial authorities in Aden, where the army's Intelligence Corps operated a secret torture centre for several years in the 1960s; and every sensitive document kept by the authorities in British Guiana, a colony whose policies were heavily influenced by successive US governments and whose post-independence leader was toppled in a coup orchestrated by the CIA.
    The documents that were not destroyed appear to have been kept secret not only to protect the UK's reputation, but to shield the government from litigation. If the small group of Mau Mau detainees are successful in their legal action, thousands more veterans are expected to follow.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/apr/18/britain-destroyed-records-colonial-crimes

    In June 1957, Eric Griffiths-Jones, the attorney general of the British administration in Kenya, wrote to the governor, Sir Evelyn Baring, detailing the way the regime of abuse at the colony's detention camps was being subtly altered.
    From now on, Griffiths-Jones wrote, for the abuse to remain legal, Mau Mau suspects must be beaten mainly on their upper body, "vulnerable parts of the body should not be struck, particularly the spleen, liver or kidneys", and it was important that "those who administer violence … should remain collected, balanced and dispassionate".
    Almost as an after-thought, the attorney general reminded the governor of the need for complete secrecy. "If we are going to sin," he wrote, "we must sin quietly."
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/apr/18/sins-colonialists-concealed-secret-archive?intcmp=239

    Still want to talk about "sociopathic individuals"?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭Feathers


    What about the majority of good soldiers who served post WWII? The wars they fought in may be unjust but thats something that the politicians of the time should be blamed for. The decent majority who served post WWII have as much right to be commemorated as those who serve post WW2.

    Well if it's an unjust war, you don't want to remember those who fought on the other side? Seems strange — I think partisan memorials like this lend legitmacy to the actions. Again, it's a symbol to commerate former and serving British military personnel, not all those who died in war.
    As for the red poppy the RBL supports the veterans and a lot of people in the UK at least will personally know someone whether friend or family so to them supporting that charity and wearing that poppy is relevant to them. Given that a lot of people in Ireland have joined over the years there are many people in Ireland who will wear it for the same reason.

    As I said, I can understand people wearing them if they have relations in the army, but I don't see how people could criticise Irish people who don't want to wear an emblem that premotes a foreign army, many of whose campaigns would be considered unjust regardless of the actions and morals of individual soldiers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    If you are not busy tomorrow Nodin you could always go to the 3:15pm Poppy day service in St Patricks Cathedral Dublin, Michael.D will be there too! Maybe you are not the Christian type, even so you might still find it all very interesting? Hopefully all the Union flags & poppies on display wouldn't offend your deeply held Irish Republican sensitivities.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    LordSutch wrote: »
    If you are not busy tomorrow Nodin you could always go to the 3:15pm Poppy day service in St Patricks Cathedral Dublin, Michael.D will be there too! Maybe you are not the Christian type, even so you might still find it all very interesting? Hopefully all the Union flags & poppies on display wouldn't offend your deeply held Irish Republican sensitivities.


    I'm an atheist....though I've nothing in principle against WWI/II memorials, something thats bedecked with "Union flags & poppies" as you put it, strikes me as being hijacked.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    Nodin wrote: »
    Ahh denial. Lovely. Bit odd they were destroying documents then...


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/apr/18/britain-destroyed-records-colonial-crimes



    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/apr/18/sins-colonialists-concealed-secret-archive?intcmp=239

    Still want to talk about "sociopathic individuals"?

    Both your articles just show that the governement and politicians of the day were responsible, something im not disagreeing with. How does this show that all serving British soldiers in Kenya were committing war crimes? Or that all post WW2 soldiers are undeserving of commeration?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭Rascasse


    Nodin wrote: »
    ....maybe they should have tried that line in the trials after WWII.

    Were any lowly soldiers tried after WWII? I know there weren't at Nuremberg, if that's what you are alluding to.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    Feathers wrote: »
    Well if it's an unjust war, you don't want to remember those who fought on the other side? Seems strange — I think partisan memorials like this lend legitmacy to the actions. Again, it's a symbol to commerate former and serving British military personnel, no all those who died in war.



    As I said, I can understand people wearing them if they have relations in the army, but I don't see how people could criticise Irish people who don't want to wear an emblem that premotes a foreign army, many of whose campaigns would be considered unjust regardless of the actions and morals of individual soldiers.

    There would be no point in commemerating opposing forces. Would you expect us to commerate the Black and Tans? Also do you think its a bit unfair for families and friends to be unable to commemerate a relative killed in a post WW2 conflict because that conflict was considered in hindsight to be unjust?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,070 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    LordSutch wrote: »
    If you are not busy tomorrow Nodin you could always go to the 3:15pm Poppy day service in St Patricks Cathedral Dublin, Michael.D will be there too! Maybe you are not the Christian type, even so you might still find it all very interesting? Hopefully all the Union flags & poppies on display wouldn't offend your deeply held Irish Republican sensitivities.

    What purpose do the Union flags serve exactly? I thought you guys wanted people to believe that remembrance Sunday was about showing respect for those that fought rather than anything political or nationalistic?

    No surprise really that you're more interested in the political side of it. Kinda cheapens the whole idea of 'remembrance' though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Both your articles just show that the governement and politicians of the day were responsible, something im not disagreeing with. How does this show that all serving British soldiers in Kenya were committing war crimes? ......

    .....dear o dear. You keep shifting the goal posts. Earlier you were saying
    Theres nothing in that article you linked to that proves the soldiers that committed the acts of torture you quoted were doing so under orders. This could have been the acts of sociopathic individuals.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81680990&postcount=1243

    And again - Kenya is just one example. Theres Aden, Uganda, Egypt, Iraq.....
    Or that all post WW2 soldiers are undeserving of commeration?

    The fact is that theres no way to differentiate between those who are and aren't when buying a poppy. That, combined with the large number of brutal colonial regimes they were involved in, means that anyone supporting the poppy appeal runs a great chance of their funds aiding those involved with those regimes.


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