Why would an Irish person wear a poppy ?

bobbysands81

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Wheras the brave IRA vent their venom on kids buying mothers day presents in warrington, or aussie tourists in germany!
Don't engage in whatabouttery unless you want to face some pretty nasty facts about the IRA both old and provo!

You're the one engaging in whataboutary, this is a thread about Irish people commemorating people that have ruthlessly killed Irish kids on Irish streets... meanwhile even the British Government isn't providing for these men properly who are now merely beggars on the street.

Nodin

Lelantos wrote: »

Ok, let's put it another way, prove me 100% incorrect & then we will talk. .

prove a negative? I'm sorry, but thats not how it works.

You are the one who made the accusation. Its not illogical to presume that you have some source or basis for this, other than hearsay and assumptions/presumptions. Now if thats all you have, then you've no case and should withdraw your accusation. If you have real evidence, then lets see it.

Lelantos wrote: »

I have no intention or interest in naming names on an internet forum. You can waffle all day long for all I care. Anyone who has ever been to Bodenstown for the commemoration will tell you who was there, who spoke & exactly how close the NGA are to Sinn fein.

Again, this is waffle. Nor does it speak to the allegation of misuse of funds. Now again - you stated

The NGA is a supposed non party affiliated organisation, but it was run by IRA members, so that wasn't true. The vast majority of sales went to Sinn Féin & other organizations.

Do you have a source/sources to show that (a) the NGA was run by IRA members and (b) that the "vast majority" of monies raised went to "Sinn Fein & other organizations"?

Either please provide some proof, or be as good as to withdraw the allegations.

GRMA

Latchy wrote: »

I don't care that people like you are using what the poppy means as something that you pinpoint down to one terrible event in recent history which has been wildly acknowledged by all and sundry, including the military and was I'm aware , still under investigation .

We can only hope that those who lost there loved ones get the justice they deserve .Everybody everywhere , including many across the political divide and military who wish to see this to .

Americans ,Canadians ,British Irish and other Europeans, who lost millions in the great wars wear the poppy to remember their great grandfathers and grandfathers . Indioblack pointed out , the british tax payers is funding soldiers ,their family's and former soldiers family's .

It's a silly question in it's intentions of pin pointing everything in your posts down to bloody sunday but I'll answer it .

The last person to survive the great war died this year but meeting British ,American ,Canadian ,Dutch Veterans of world war two veterans is very interesting because they share a common bond and horrific experiences, the likes of which many including I never have and hopefully never will .

What do you say about those two murderers who were welcomed back with open arms by the British army? One is still in service.

As I said people get thrown out for taking drugs. But not for murdering teenagers.

They were two who got caught, there are many more who didnt get prosecuted etc and had their crimes covered up.

A Dub in Glasgo

Lelantos wrote: »

Ok, let's put it another way, prove me 100% incorrect & then we will talk

Do you work with the inverse principle for everything?

Nodin

Latchy wrote: »

I don't care that people like you are using what the poppy means as something that you pinpoint down to one terrible event in recent history which has been wildly acknowledged by all and sundry, including the military and was I'm aware , still under investigation .
.............. .

One event? Unfortunately not.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81571598&postcount=680

Death and Taxes

bobbysands81 wrote: »

You're the one engaging in whataboutary, this is a thread about Irish people commemorating people that have ruthlessly killed Irish kids on Irish streets... meanwhile even the British Government isn't providing for these men properly who are now merely beggars on the street.

No, this is a thread about the the elevent hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month of 1918, and showing respect to all those who died in that conflict, showing respect like those in Enniskillen did in 1987 when a bunch of yellow cowards blew them up!

A Dub in Glasgo

WileyCoyote wrote: »

No, this is a thread about the the elevent hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month of 1918, and showing respect to all those who died in that conflict, showing respect like those in Enniskillen did in 1987 when a bunch of yellow cowards blew them up!

Actually it is not, you might want to read the OP again. It is about Irish people wearing the symbol of the British security forces and the fact that the British Government neglects it's duty to look after their grunts when they get injured.

Latchy

GRMA wrote: »

What do you say about those two murderers who were welcomed back with open arms by the British army? One is still in service.

I don't approve of that at all that guy should have been kicked out on his ass .Just as in civilian life were you see people get away with light sentences for committing terrible crimes , you would hope that justice would fit the crime .

Del.Monte

GRMA wrote: »

There's more than enough reasons on this site not to wear a poppy:

http://www.britisharmykillings.org.uk/

Might be a bit of uncomfortable reading for some people here.

There's more than enough reasons here - and uncomfortable too - http://theirishobserver.blogspot.ie/2010/11/serial-killers-murder-of-sir-norman.html and here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporals_killings to keep on stoking anti-nationalist sentiment amongst Unionists but what's the point? Time to move on and, yes, the IRA did act in the name of Republicans even a la carte ones like gurramok.

Nodin

WileyCoyote wrote: »

No, this is a thread about the the elevent hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month of 1918, and showing respect to all those who died in that conflict, .......

No, its about the poppy, and the fact thats its funds go to ex-british service personell.

indioblack

gurramok wrote: »

What the IRA did was not in my name or the Irish people's name. What the BA did was in the British people's name, they are agents of the British state.

The poppy has been hijacked to glorify said BA killers who along with never been convicted or murdering civilians in NI, receive funds directly from the buying of the poppy. You have that choice to buy a white poppy instead to dissolve yourself from associating with murderers.

Your first paragraph is a good reply - and I take your point.
I disagree that the poppy is used to glorify killers. As I'm sure you are aware, the vast majority of service personnel killed no-one over that 30 year period - most probably never discharged their weapons in anger.
A small number were involved in unlawful killings - and murder.
The chances of these individuals being identified, let alone brought to book, are slim.Some paramilitaries convicted of offences in this time, including murder, have been released - this is not to contradict the point you made in your first paragraph - I merely point out that this can muddy the waters.
Bloody Sunday, for example, was such a prominent event - yet it took a long time for even a partial resolution.
Frankly, most people on this side of the water would not take your view regarding the Poppy Appeal - and they might wonder how you can weed out some of those you claim are ineligible to benefit from the proceeds of that appeal.
If this debate could be held here it might be more constructive - and instructive - for both sides of the argument.
Having already told you that I don't approve of murder, I'm sure you'll accept that I don't keep their company either.

flanno_7hi

I would never even contemplate wearing a poppy.

People can give money to a charity but you don't need to walk around showing everyone do you? People know that wearing one will get up peoples noses in Ireland so what is the reason for wearing one?

I live in the UK and although you get offered a poppy a lot, no one has ever badgered me to buy one. My gf is english and after explaining my feelings about them she has never asked me to wear/buy one despite the fact her granddad sells them.

Latchy

Nodin wrote: »

One event? Unfortunately not.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81571598&postcount=680

Every major Army in History has behaved as such but that doesn't make it right ,no of course not but the poppy as a symbol means 'Remembrance ' .

Countrys like China and Japan will have remembrance events ie Nanking / Nagasaki but it's It just tragic and equally sad that the victims of such terrible crimes against humanity don't have something similar on a large scale which represents all peoples across the world .,Remembrance Sunday is not a day for military hype and glory ,on the contary it's plain and simple to remember the falling who gave their life's on the field of battle

WileyCoyote wrote: »

No, this is a thread about the the elevent hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month of 1918, and showing respect to all those who died in that conflict, showing respect like those in Enniskillen did in 1987 when a bunch of yellow cowards blew them up!

Good point

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Actually it is not, you might want to read the OP again. It is about Irish people wearing the symbol of the British security forces and the fact that the British Government neglects it's duty to look after their grunts when they get injured.

Equally good point .

Nodin wrote: »

No, its about the poppy, and the fact thats its funds go to ex-british service personell.

flanno_7hi wrote: »

I would never even contemplate wearing a poppy.

People can give money to a charity but you don't need to walk around showing everyone do you? People know that wearing one will get up peoples noses in Ireland so what is the reason for wearing one?

I live in the UK and although you get offered a poppy a lot, no one has ever badgered me to buy one. My gf is english and after explaining my feelings about them she has never asked me to wear/buy one despite the fact her granddad sells them.

Obiously people on here who won't wear a poppy because of the funding it brings to ex-british service personnel are entitled to feel as they do and that is to be respected while also remembering that those in the main who do , have no agenda of sorts but simply wear one out of respect .

MagicSean

Nodin wrote: »

No, its about the poppy, and the fact thats its funds go to ex-british service personell.

The thread is about wearing a poppy, not buying one. There is surely a difference. If you buy one from a charity set up to fund British Army soldiers is that not completely different to wearing one to show respect for those that died in World War 1? I think it is.

I wouldn't object to supporting the soldiers on the ground anyway. A soldier has little choice in where he is sent. I think most are doing what they think is right. For many of them the army is all they know so why would they think any different to what they are told?

Jimoslimos

MagicSean wrote: »

The thread is about wearing a poppy, not buying one. There is surely a difference. If you buy one from a charity set up to fund British Army soldiers is that not completely different to wearing one to show respect for those that died in World War 1? I think it is.

To wear one you have to buy it first. The RBL have EXCLUSIVE rights on the poppy trademark and as such are the only charity allowed to sell and profit from it.

You cannot separate the two, no matter how hard you try to justify it to yourself.

flanno_7hi

Latchy wrote: »

Every major Army in History has behaved as such but that doesn't make it right ,no of course not but the poppy as a symbol means 'Remembrance ' .

Countrys like China and Japan will have remembrance events ie Nanking / Nagasaki but it's It just tragic and equally sad that the victims of such terrible crimes against humanity don't have something similar on a large scale which represents all peoples across the world .,Remembrance Sunday is not a day for military hype and glory ,on the contary it's plain and simple to remember the falling who gave their life's on the field of battle

Good point

Equally good point .



Obiously people on here who won't wear a poppy because of the funding it brings to ex-british service personnel are entitled to feel as they do and that is to be respected while also remembering that those in the main who do , have no agenda of sorts but simply wear one out of respect .

Surely respect comes from within and by giving money to said charity you are helping a cause you believe but by wearing the poppy are you not just rubbing a lot of people's noses in something?

LordSutch

Jimoslimos wrote: »

To wear one you have to buy it first. The RBL have EXCLUSIVE rights on the poppy trademark and as such are the only charity allowed to sell and profit from it.

You don't actually buy a Poppy though, but you can make a contribution if you like. This morning for instance I just emptied all my loose change into the poppy box and took one each for me and the wife. Dunno if the Irish Poppy appeal make a profit though, more likely they will need a top up from the UK poppy appeal fund to meet their obligations in the ROI.

MagicSean

Jimoslimos wrote: »

To wear one you have to buy it first. The RBL have EXCLUSIVE rights on the poppy trademark and as such are the only charity allowed to sell and profit from it.

You cannot separate the two, no matter how hard you try to justify it to yourself.

**** Really? I thought the poppy was a flower that grew in the ground or could be purchased from a florist.

drumaneen

Jimoslimos wrote: »

To wear one you have to buy it [a poppy] first.

Not strictly true ... The public are asked to make a voluntary donation and a poppy would not be refused if requested ... even for free.

gurramok

Latchy wrote: »

I don't care that people like you are using what the poppy means as something that you pinpoint down to one terrible event in recent history which has been wildly acknowledged by all and sundry, including the military and was I'm aware , still under investigation .

We can only hope that those who lost there loved ones get the justice they deserve .Everybody everywhere , including many across the political divide and military who wish to see this to .

Americans ,Canadians ,British Irish and other Europeans, who lost millions in the great wars wear the poppy to remember their great grandfathers and grandfathers . Indioblack pointed out , the british tax payers is funding soldiers ,their family's and former soldiers family's .

It's a silly question in it's intentions of pin pointing everything in your posts down to bloody sunday but I'll answer it .

The last person to survive the great war died this year but meeting British ,American ,Canadian ,Dutch Veterans of world war two veterans is very interesting because they share a common bond and horrific experiences, the likes of which many including I never have and hopefully never will .

Thats very well mentioning all sorts of veterans, there is no problem with them from here. The main issue is the poppy and its relevance to NI as its Ireland here. An Iraqi would have an issue with BA's behaviour in Iraq for example.
Its nice words of reconciliation from you but it took 40years for the British establishment to acknowledge their wrongs on Bloody Sunday, thats only one event, still another 140 killings or so of unarmed civilians to acknowledge their wrongdoing yet. Its a pity they haven't come out and just say we are sorry for their murders and discontinue any benefits to their murderers.

Del.Monte wrote: »

There's more than enough reasons here - and uncomfortable too - http://theirishobserver.blogspot.ie/2010/11/serial-killers-murder-of-sir-norman.html and here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporals_killings to keep on stoking anti-nationalist sentiment amongst Unionists but what's the point? Time to move on and, yes, the IRA did act in the name of Republicans even a la carte ones like gurramok.

Wrong, i'm an Irish nationalist not a republican. My views would be suited to a strong SDLP view. I've voted for all sorts of parties down here including Lab, Ind, FF(donkeys years ago!) and yes SF. My vote depends on a range of issues at the time not just Northern issues.

indioblack wrote: »

Your first paragraph is a good reply - and I take your point.
I disagree that the poppy is used to glorify killers. As I'm sure you are aware, the vast majority of service personnel killed no-one over that 30 year period - most probably never discharged their weapons in anger.
A small number were involved in unlawful killings - and murder.
The chances of these individuals being identified, let alone brought to book, are slim.Some paramilitaries convicted of offences in this time, including murder, have been released - this is not to contradict the point you made in your first paragraph - I merely point out that this can muddy the waters.
Bloody Sunday, for example, was such a prominent event - yet it took a long time for even a partial resolution.
Frankly, most people on this side of the water would not take your view regarding the Poppy Appeal - and they might wonder how you can weed out some of those you claim are ineligible to benefit from the proceeds of that appeal.
If this debate could be held here it might be more constructive - and instructive - for both sides of the argument.
Having already told you that I don't approve of murder, I'm sure you'll accept that I don't keep their company either.

Good to hear. There is a HET investigating unsolved Troubles killings by all sides. They do know who the majority of soldiers who committed the crimes are, its a matter for the MOD(amongst others) to co-operate fully in each investigation. At stake is brand British Army, to damage that brand is the main issue which is the main barrier to getting justice. Took 40yrs for Bloody Sunday truth come to light, gives you an idea of the roadblocks to justice.

Latchy

flanno_7hi wrote: »

Surely respect comes from within and by giving money to said charity you are helping a cause you believe but by wearing the poppy are you not just rubbing a lot of people's noses in something?

There must be many people in UK and elsewhere who will go out to buy a poppy and only doing so because they believe it's to remember and help those injured or maimed in battle but I well understand why some people there and in Ireland might see somebody wearing it as 'rubbing peoples nose in it' to .

philologos

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Good ol' Phil.

29 posts in this thread but claims he doesn't care about the issue.

It must hurt his brain continuously squaring those circles.

True to form.

How about you read my posts properly first?

The primary reason I posted on this thread is not to convince you to wear the poppy. I don't care if you do or if you don't. That's the issue I don't care about. I couldn't give a fiddlesticks as to what your choice is.

What I do care about is when people make entirely ignorant claims about the significance of the poppy as a symbol.

GRMA

Del.Monte wrote: »

There's more than enough reasons here - and uncomfortable too - http://theirishobserver.blogspot.ie/2010/11/serial-killers-murder-of-sir-norman.html and here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporals_killings to keep on stoking anti-nationalist sentiment amongst Unionists but what's the point? Time to move on and, yes, the IRA did act in the name of Republicans even a la carte ones like gurramok.

What does this thread have to do with the IRA?

flanno_7hi

Latchy wrote: »

There must be many people in UK and elsewhere who will go out to buy a poppy and only doing so because they believe it's to remember and help those injured or maimed in battle but I well understand why some people there and in Ireland might see somebody wearing it as 'rubbing peoples nose in it' to .

That's the thing though. Here in the UK I am a guest in their country and as such i respect their reasons and right to buy/wear a poppy. People wearing the poppy will remind others to buy one.
In Ireland wearing a Poppy is inflammatory and as such I think it mostly (obviously an unsubstantiated opinion) gets peoples backs up. Surely the reason to wear one is to get more money for the charity whereas in Ireland I believe all it does is upset people?


Off topic a bit but did anyone see Frankie Boyle was wearing the white one on J. Ross's show? Was it Jon Snow who complained about people basically being forced to wear one on UK tv?

A Dub in Glasgo

flanno_7hi wrote: »

Off topic a bit but did anyone see Frankie Boyle was wearing the white one on J. Ross's show? Was it Jon Snow who complained about people basically being forced to wear one on UK tv?

Yes I did and well done to Boyle. A kick in the teeth for the (red) poppy 'fascists'


Why I refuse to buy into politics of the poppy brand

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9629864/Poppy-fascism-row-reignites-over-accusations-appeal-has-been-hijacked-by-politicians-and-B-list-celebrities.html

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/24616-jon-snow-attacks-poppy-fascism

Latchy

flanno.That's the thing though. Here in the UK I am a guest in their country and as such i respect their reasons and right to buy/wear a poppy. People wearing the poppy will remind others to buy one.

I to am a guest in the UK and like you ,I will see it from the point of view of the person who may /may not have military family history but nevertheless will wear the poppy , as is their right to do so .It's become the norm now to see celebs ( including Irish ones ) wearing poppy's on British tv chat shows and they are probably just pinned on their lapels without been asked if they want them on.

flanno_7hi wrote: »

In Ireland wearing a Poppy is inflammatory and as such I think it mostly (obviously an unsubstantiated opinion) gets peoples backs up. Surely the reason to wear one is to get more money for the charity whereas in Ireland I believe all it does is upset people?

It upsets people in Ireland because of the history and events of British occupation of the Republic and some still see as ( also open to debate) the occupation of Northern Ireland .

I think it goes without saying that it's important to respect the opinions of people who find it upsetting and while there has been some change in Ireland as a whole to remember the Irish souls who perished on the battlefields of WW1/2 and conflicts at home , as we can see , it's still a very delicate matter .

Hilly Bill

Wearing a poppy is no big deal, its the same as wearing that little sticker you get after giving money to a collector for the guide dogs for the blind, you either wear it or you dont. I would buy one and fully support it but wouldnt wear one , nor do i wear those little stickers.
The only gripe i have is when everyone on tv seems to be forced to wear one for PC reasons.

Big Respect to Jon Snow.

Snickers Man

Here's one reason to think about.

At a time when much of the British Army was recruited in Ireland, here's what they were up to.

And it was because of those actions that Britain got embroiled in the "Great War for Civilisation" [sic] and that other one.

Judgement Day

Snickers Man wrote: »

Here's one reason to think about.

At a time when much of the British Army was recruited in Ireland, here's what they were up to.

And it was because of those actions that Britain got embroiled in the "Great War for Civilisation" [sic] and that other one.

Slow news day. Talking of clutching at straws to back up an argument. :rolleyes:

PS When are we (British) going to get compensation for being invaded by Romans, Vikings, Normans etc?

LordSutch

flanno_7hi wrote: »

In Ireland wearing a Poppy is inflammatory and as such I think it mostly (obviously an unsubstantiated opinion) gets peoples backs up. Surely the reason to wear one is to get more money for the charity whereas in Ireland I believe all it does is upset people?

Glad you ended that with a questionmark. I have never ever had any negative remarks passed about my Poppy on the streets of Dublin, and I haven't heard of any other incidents in recent years either, although I do know an elderly poppy seller who gets an earful from one old fella also in his 80s, who always makes a point of having a go at her.

flanno_7hi wrote: »

Off topic a bit but did anyone see Frankie Boyle was wearing the white one on J. Ross's show? Was it Jon Snow who complained about people basically being forced to wear one on UK tv?

White poppies have been around for ages, they are also a personal choice to signify 'Peace, Not War' which is nice, and as regards Jon Snow, well he has taken a personal stance on not wearing a poppy on TV because of what has been described as 'Poppy Fascism' - which means that people are forced to wear poppies on TV, whether they like it or not!

On this issue I agree with Jon Snow 100%.