SUPPORT for victims of sexual assault thread - mod warning post #1

McChubbin · 13-04-2012 12:20AM

My first time, I was under the combined influence of cider and dental painkillers so my judgement was somewhat impaired but I was still sober enough to know that I was assaulted. Firstly, forced oral and then rough sex that left my inner thighs so bruised I couldn't sit right for a month after the fact.
I was so scared of the guy after that that I stayed for two months and let him use me until sense kicked in and he had me up against a wall one night- I kicked him in the balls and ran.
I'm still tramatised by it and it didn't help that the next bloke I dated after him was emotionally unavailable. In fact, my recent ex once told me "You're so naive- you'd make the perfect rape victim."

I had a nervous breakdown following the assault and it's taken me a while to get over it. I even contemplated suicide at the time but obviously I didn't go through with it.
I've seen the guy who took my virginity around a few times but he no longer scares me anymore as I no longer let him into my head.

Even so, I can't enjoy sex with a man as I get the feeling of being crushed and pinned down which makes it hard to breathe and then I start hyperventilating. It feels wrong to me so maybe that's why I've abstained for the last 3 and a half years.

Millicent · 13-04-2012 01:04AM

McChubbin wrote: »

Even so, I can't enjoy sex with a man as I get the feeling of being crushed and pinned down which makes it hard to breathe and then I start hyperventilating. It feels wrong to me so maybe that's why I've abstained for the last 3 and a half years.

I'm really sorry to hear that.

Have you sought any help for those feelings? It took me a long time to get to where the thoughts of sex, especially oral (giving or receiving), didn't make me want to gag and I usually to physically shudder every time I thought about anything sexual. All those feelings of being dirty and ashamed would rush back every time I even had a sexual thought.

Through counselling and talking to others and having entered a relationship a decent person, I got to experience the true joy of sex without having to constantly be reminded of the horror of sexual assault. It's a lovely feeling when in a good relationship or even in a safe place with someone you're sexually attracted to.

I really hope you can work through those feelings and come out the other side and once again I'm really sorry to hear about how you're suffering still.

Millicent · 13-04-2012 01:08AM

port lad wrote: »

So do I feel sexually assaulted? Well sort of. I don't have much ill will against the girl. I reckon she thought I was more experienced (I was good with fingers from checking for tips on how to do it online ) and assumed I wanted sex. Silly assumption but she was a mixed up 17y/o herself. And had I been expecting it... been slightly less drunk and had a chance to stick on a johnny I would have wanted to.

Though looking back through this post were the genders reversed this story it would have read a lot more sinister

I have to say, I find the experience you describe horrific, regardless of your gender. I think she took advantage of you in a bad state. She does sound pretty mixed up but that doesn't minimise the fact that her behaviour was totally inappropriate.

LegacyUser · 13-04-2012 02:55AM

Millicent wrote: »

I have to say, I find the experience you describe horrific, regardless of your gender. I think she took advantage of you in a bad state. She does sound pretty mixed up but that doesn't minimise the fact that her behaviour was totally inappropriate.

Thanks for your comment.

not minimise but maybe it was a mitigating factor. She was under the influence as well. FWIW I think she probably wouldn't have done it if she'd known I was a virgin. Or at least done things differently. A few years later she asked me a funny question enquiring as to how drunk I was which by the way she put it I reckon was an attempt at an apology

Fortunately I don't think it affected me. The next time I had sex was a year later which went fine and was such a relief when it wasn't painful. Have had subsequent healthy sexual relationships and am currently in a happy relationship with a great sex life.

I'm trying to be very careful with wording as I don't want to offend anyone. Basically whilst I was denied the opportunity to consent... I could have physically stopped it without fear of any kind of retribution. I decided to keep going in hopes it might get better whereas I sense a lot of posters in this thread were physically and/or psychologically intimidated by their attackers during the attack which I would say is like another layer of consent violation.

In many cases the poster resisted in some way or even said no but the attacker continued. This is again a significant further violation of consent which wasn't there for me. That is of course not to say someone has to say no for it to be rape - just in my case I don't think it was quite as horrific as it could have been.

I'm sort of babbling now. I just wanted to post my experience because it is probably something that can easily enough happen when people don't properly think about what is going on during a sexual encounter. and you're completely right the gender doesn't actually matter. Had I been uncomfortable with the idea of sex in general at the time it could have affected me severely.

thanks again for your comment

The Corinthian · 14-04-2012 10:19AM

Caraville wrote: »

Sorry, I'm still stuck on the claim that most women have been afraid to say no to a man at least one time in their lives. Is that seriously true? Are we that afraid of men? Are men that scary?

One evening last week I really wasn't in the mood. The other half definitely was and so she initiated sex. I didn't want to have sex, but I also knew that if I said no, there would be Hell to pay; minimum of one day's sulking and more than likely she's pick a fight on some other topic so to act out by proxy.

So in the end I had sex ultimately because I suppose I was 'afraid' of the consequences of refusing. Was I raped?

Sul wrote: »

If a women wakes up confused to a man having sex with her then it is rape. What sort of man would have sex with a women who is excessively drunk or asleep??

Friend of mine was in that situation. Got home tired and drunk with the woman in question, got into bed, she got on top, next thing he knew it was morning and she was pissed at him. After a while she told him that she was on top of him and all of a sudden he began to snore. He asked what happened next, to which she told him she finished herself off with him and climbed off.

On one occasion I woke to find that the woman I was with had managed not only to get me hard, but even put a condom on me.

I also think there are few of us, of either gender, who have not woken up in the middle of the night, at least once, with the person next to us 'fiddling' with us.

So that sort of thing does happen, especially in a country like Ireland where alcohol appears to be so central to any kind of romantic interaction. Doesn't make it less creepy.

Ickle Magoo · 14-04-2012 01:23PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

One evening last week I really wasn't in the mood. The other half definitely was and so she initiated sex. I didn't want to have sex, but I also knew that if I said no, there would be Hell to pay; minimum of one day's sulking and more than likely she's pick a fight on some other topic so to act out by proxy.

So in the end I had sex ultimately because I suppose I was 'afraid' of the consequences of refusing. Was I raped?

I wouldn't expect grudgingly agreeing to have sex because of the emotional blackmail and petty tantrums I'm prepared to accept in my relationship to be considered rape...

I think there is a difference between rape and not being in the mood and just putting their needs/wants before your own on that occasion...I'm astonished I actually have to point that out or posters are trying to suggest otherwise, tbh :eek:

The Corinthian · 14-04-2012 01:43PM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I wouldn't expect grudgingly agreeing to have sex because of the emotional blackmail and petty tantrums I'm prepared to accept in my relationship to be considered rape...

I think there is a difference between rape and not being in the mood and just putting their needs/wants before your own on that occasion...I'm astonished I actually have to point that out or posters are trying to suggest otherwise, tbh :eek:

I agree. I raised the point because if we define rape as being coerced out of fear of consequences then this would qualify. Or is it because I am in a relationship mean it is not (in which case can a husband coerce his wife)? Or is fear of physical consequences what defines it, in which case psychological or other consequences do not?

I'm trying to get an understanding for what constitutes rape, also because there appears to be disagreement here. When is it rape and when is it "just putting their needs/wants before your own on that occasion"?

Ickle Magoo · 14-04-2012 02:07PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

I agree. I raised the point because if we define rape as being coerced out of fear of consequences then this would qualify.

I don't think it would and tbh I'm not sure what your motivation is in trying to suggest that consenting to a nagging petty girlfriend is the equivalent to not resisting out of fear of safety - you can't really think that grudged consent is the same as no consent???

The Corinthian wrote: »

Or is it because I am in a relationship mean it is not (in which case can a husband coerce his wife)? Or is fear of physical consequences what defines it, in which case psychological or other consequences do not?

You seem to want the impossible and to have a concrete line where it becomes rape and I just don't think that is possible. Otherwise you get into the dangerous and rather insidious territory of suggesting only those who scream rape or show signs of resistance should be considered victims of rape.

The Corinthian wrote: »

I'm trying to get an understanding for what constitutes rape, also because there appears to be disagreement here. When is it rape and when is it "just putting their needs/wants before your own on that occasion"?

I'm pretty sure I know exactly what you're trying to do...

You really can't see a difference between willingly consenting to having sex with someone despite not really being in the mood and being raped? Is that what you're saying? That's fairly terrifying.

I don't understand the desperation to ring-fence what should or should not be considered rape - if someone states they did not give consent and they were raped then only the judiciary are in a position to judge that statement, surely?

neuro-praxis · 14-04-2012 02:31PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

When is it rape and when is it "just putting their needs/wants before your own on that occasion"?

When it's rape.

The Corinthian · 14-04-2012 02:31PM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I don't think it would and tbh I'm not sure what your motivation is in trying to suggest that consenting to a nagging petty girlfriend is the equivalent to not resisting out of fear of safety - you can't really think that grudged consent is the same as no consent???

Sorry, are you suggesting that I'm simply in fear of 'nagging'? I'm a bit taken aback by the pure sexism of that comment.

Also - genuine question - please define 'fear of safety'.

You seem to want the impossible and to have a concrete line where it becomes rape and I just don't think that is possible.

I'm not asking for a concrete line, but I do think it is reasonable to ask why is one case rape and another not. Even here there appears to be a lot of disagreement over the issue.

Otherwise you get into the dangerous and rather insidious territory of suggesting only those who scream rape or show signs of resistance should be considered victims of rape.

And by the same logic you get into the the dangerous and rather insidious territory of considering every possible scenario as rape if you so choose.

You really can't see a difference between willingly consenting to having sex with someone despite not really being in the mood and being raped? Is that what you're saying? That's fairly terrifying.

No I can see the difference - to me it's not. Unless you hadn't noticed I was responding to another poster who may or may not be able to do so, hence my asking for clarification.

The Corinthian · 14-04-2012 03:04PM

Let me explain another way. Many years ago I had a one-night-stand with a woman. Met, had a good few drinks, but not so many that neither of us was beyond reason. Went back to her place where we began to have sex - all completely consensual and no coercion that I could identify (or at least she was pushing for sex as much as I was). Three of four minutes into sex, she 'freaked' out and told me to stop. I naturally stopped immediately; truth be told as was more freaked out by the experience than she was.

Had I been raping her? If I had, if she had never wanted to have sex with me, why did she invite me back to her place and actively take part in initiating it? Why had she not made any objection to sex, indeed quite the opposite? Was it not rape up to the point that she freaked out and then suddenly became rape, or had it been all along?

Could I have been guilty of rape without even being aware of it? This is the thing I find disturbing, because if we cannot seem to define rape as anything other than "when it's rape" it almost means that any sex could be rape if the victim chooses to define it as such and the perpetrator would never even know until its too late.

I ask because the poster described a case where someone might show no outwards signs that they were not consenting out of fear of the consequences. The man might falsely think that it's completely consensual, just as much as the woman may falsely think that she may be in danger if she refuses. As a man the thought that I may have inadvertently raped without actually realizing utterly horrifies me. Hence my asking for clarification.

Ickle Magoo · 14-04-2012 03:15PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

Let me explain another way. Many years ago I had a one-night-stand with a woman. Met, had a good few drinks, but not so many that neither of us was beyond reason. Went back to her place where we began to have sex - all completely consensual and no coercion that I could identify (or at least she was pushing for sex as much as I was). Three of four minutes into sex, she 'freaked' out and told me to stop. I naturally stopped immediately; truth be told as was more freaked out by the experience than she was.

Had I been raping her? If I had, if she had never wanted to have sex with me, why did she invite me back to her place and actively take part in initiating it? Why had she not made any objection to sex, indeed quite the opposite? Was it not rape up to the point that she freaked out and then suddenly became rape, or had it been all along?

Could I have been guilty of rape without even being aware of it? This is the thing I find disturbing, because if we cannot seem to define rape as anything other than "when it's rape" it almost means that any sex could be rape if the victim chooses to define it as such and the perpetrator would never even know until its too late.

I ask because the poster described a case where someone might show no outwards signs that they were not consenting out of fear of the consequences. The man might falsely think that it's completely consensual, just as much as the woman may falsely think that she may be in danger if she refuses. As a man the thought that I may have inadvertently raped without actually realizing utterly horrifies me. Hence my asking for clarification.

I don't think it can be clarified between third parties in hypothetical discussion tho, only with your partner at the time. Consensual sex is obviously an agreement between (at least) two adults - that agreement can end at any time. Whether consent has been given or implied and how forcefully refused and whether consent was withdrawn is the stuff rape cases hinge and collapse on - it's never going to be possible to make the grey areas black and white.

14-04-2012 03:30PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

Sorry, are you suggesting that I'm simply in fear of 'nagging'?

The Corinthian wrote: »

I also knew that if I said no, there would minimum of one day's sulking and more than likely she's pick a fight
.

yes

The Corinthian · 14-04-2012 03:39PM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I don't think it can be clarified between third parties in hypothetical discussion tho, only with your partner at the time. Consensual sex is obviously an agreement between (at least) two adults - that agreement can end at any time. Whether consent has been given or implied and how forcefully refused and whether consent was withdrawn is the stuff rape cases hinge and collapse on - it's never going to be possible to make the grey areas black and white.

But if someone agrees under coercion or perceived coercion, is it consensual? And if the other party is unaware of coercion or perceived coercion and believes it consensual, is it rape?

Can you see how disturbing this can be from the male perspective?

bluewolf wrote: »

yes

I assure you it is much more than that. I'd also appreciate fewer of such sexist stereotypes please.

14-04-2012 03:40PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

I assure you it is much more than that. I'd also appreciate fewer of such sexist stereotypes please.

I'm quoting what you said. If there's any stereotypes in there it's from what you posted

Ickle Magoo · 14-04-2012 04:01PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

But if someone agrees under coercion or perceived coercion, is it consensual? And if the other party is unaware of coercion or perceived coercion and believes it consensual, is it rape?

What do you think? If a 16 year old is coerced into having sex by a 55 yr old is it consensual? If someone holds a gun at your head is it consensual? If you grab a woman's hair roughly and she judges that as a physical threat and thus neither consents nor resists - is it rape?

I honestly don't think it's for me to judge whether someone who claims they have been raped, has or has not - I think that's really dodgy territory to get into and it only serves to upset people, some of whom have already been through enough trauma without adding to it with hypothetical and amateur judge and jury play.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Can you see how disturbing this can be from the male perspective?

I'd rather hope rape is disturbing from any perspective...

I just also think a thread in the Ladies Lounge, a forum specifically for discussion from the female perspective; where posters have bravely shared their experiences of being raped and sexually assaulted is a really inappropriate platform to rubbish claims, introduce facetious strawmen or suggest someone cannot or should not be claiming they were raped.

iguana · 14-04-2012 04:17PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

But if someone agrees under coercion or perceived coercion, is it consensual? And if the other party is unaware of coercion or perceived coercion and believes it consensual, is it rape?

Can you see how disturbing this can be from the male perspective?

What I'm finding disturbing is that someone could read through some of the stories in this thread, and knowing that the women who posted them would likely still be reading, would for one tiny instant think that such arguments could ever, ever be ok to insert into this discussion.

A discussion on what may or may not worry men when it comes to what is and is not consensual sex really doesn't belong here.

nicowa · 14-04-2012 04:26PM

Just a quick test...

Girl wrote: »

I agree. I raised the point because if we define rape as being coerced out of fear of consequences then this would qualify. Or is it because I am in a relationship mean it is not (in which case can a husband coerce his wife)? Or is fear of physical consequences what defines it, in which case psychological or other consequences do not?

I'm trying to get an understanding for what constitutes rape, also because there appears to be disagreement here. When is it rape and when is it "just putting their needs/wants before your own on that occasion"?

Guy wrote: »

I wouldn't expect grudgingly agreeing to have sex because of the emotional blackmail and petty tantrums I'm prepared to accept in my relationship to be considered rape...

I think there is a difference between rape and not being in the mood and just putting their needs/wants before your own on that occasion...I'm astonished I actually have to point that out or posters are trying to suggest otherwise, tbh :eek:

Girl wrote: »

One evening last week I really wasn't in the mood. The other half definitely was and so he initiated sex. I didn't want to have sex, but I also knew that if I said no, there would be Hell to pay; minimum of one day's sulking and more than likely he's pick a fight on some other topic so to act out by proxy.

So in the end I had sex ultimately because I suppose I was 'afraid' of the consequences of refusing. Was I raped?

Guy wrote: »

I don't think it would and tbh I'm not sure what your motivation is in trying to suggest that consenting to a nagging petty boyfriend is the equivalent to not resisting out of fear of safety - you can't really think that grudged consent is the same as no consent???

Girl wrote: »

But if someone agrees under coercion or perceived coercion, is it consensual? And if the other party is unaware of coercion or perceived coercion and believes it consensual, is it rape?

Can you see how disturbing this can be from the male perspective?

I assure you it is much more than that. I'd also appreciate fewer of such sexist stereotypes please.

Guy wrote: »

What do you think? If a 16 year old is coerced into having sex by a 55 yr old is it consensual? If someone holds a gun at your head is it consensual? If you grab a woman's hair roughly and she judges that as a physical threat and thus neither consents nor resists - is it rape?

I honestly don't think it's for me to judge whether someone who claims they have been raped, has or has not - I think that's really dodgy territory to get into and it only serves to upset people, some of whom have already been through enough trauma without adding to it with hypothetical and amateur judge and jury play.

I'd rather hope rape is disturbing from any perspective...

I just also think a thread in the Ladies Lounge, a forum specifically for discussion from the female perspective; where posters have bravely shared their experiences of being raped and sexually assaulted is a really inappropriate platform to rubbish claims, introduce facetious strawmen or suggest someone cannot or should not be claiming they were raped.

Did you read it differently?

Personally I think if the genders here were reversed then Ickle Magoo would accused of demeaning the situation.

The Corinthain - if you felt pressurised to have sex, did not want to have sex and did not enjoy it, if nothing else I would have to consider it abuse. Because if the genders were reversed and it was my friend telling me this story I would have to tell her that I felt very uncomfortable with her continuing to see this person and be intimate with them. If it's a regular occurance then I would consider it sexual violence to be presuriesed into have sex or face the "consiquences" of not. And I think that is the very start of sexual violence. Once there is a threat of consiquences. Whatever the level. Because, as has been demonstrated in cases of domestic violence and abuse what starts out small can develop into something very violent and disturbing.

Ickle Magoo · 14-04-2012 04:28PM

nicowa wrote: »

Personally I think if the genders here were reversed then Ickle Magoo would accused of demeaning the situation.

Sorry, what does that mean?

I don't think my going ach, love I really can't be arsed with a shag tonight but anything to keep you quiet and not nagging at me, constitutes non-consensual sex - I'm not sure what's demeaning about that...trying to use that situation to invalidate those who have shared their experiences on the other hand....

14-04-2012 04:29PM

nicowa wrote: »

Just a quick test...

Did you read it differently?

No

nicowa · 14-04-2012 04:30PM

And yes I do think "What may worry men" is something that should be discussed - if not here then elsewhere. It's the ad from the tv - if you could see yourself would you see rape? It's a change of mindset - it's not what she's wearing, it's what you're saying to her, doing to her.

I'm sorry if I'm being graphic or disturbing but the only way to change things is to change how people think. If that situation with The Corinthian and his partner was reversed people would be horrified to hear that someone is continuously being pressuriesed into having sex or face the consequences.

You're body is yours and not there for the pleasure of anyone else unless you say so. They cannot be upset with you for denying them that.

nicowa · 14-04-2012 04:32PM

So if it were a girl being pressuriesed - ie forced - to have sex in that situation, having to put up with a backlash of petty insults and mental abuse - it would be ok?

--

I don't mean to say that it's ok for a man to say that it's not rape if she didn't fight back. I just want to make myself clear on that score too.

Dudess · 14-04-2012 04:33PM

Of course it wouldn't be ok. And what The Corinthian has to deal with is not ok. Are people saying otherwise?

nicowa · 14-04-2012 04:34PM

Dudess wrote: »

Of course it wouldn't be ok. And what The Corinthian has to deal with is not ok. Are people saying otherwise?

I could be wrong but that's they way I read it - that he "grudgingly consented". Maybe that's ok. But I don't think it is.

Kimia · 14-04-2012 04:36PM

There's no denying that TC's girlfriend sounds like a drama queen (one day of sulking because you didn't want to have sex?) but I cannot agree that he was sexually assaulted or raped.

If you look back over all the stories submitted by other ladies, the ones who eventually stayed silent and went along with things believed that if they didn't, they would have been forced to anyway and they were under perceived threat of violence. It seemed like the only safe way to handle a horrible situation.

The Corinthian - did you feel that giving in and having sex was the only safe option open to you? Did you fear for your safety and liberty? Because equating nagging & sulking with threats of violence, force & the complete removal of your freedom to choose is (perhaps deliberately) inflammatory.

I should also say that I read TC's girlfriend's actions as not abusive, but naggy/dramatic. If she was being abusive and forcing him to have sex then I think it's different but he hasn't clarified that.

14-04-2012 04:38PM

nicowa wrote: »

So if it were a girl being pressuriesed - ie forced - to have sex in that situation, having to put up with a backlash of petty insults and mental abuse - it would be ok?

I don't mean to say that it's ok for a man to say that it's not rape if she didn't fight back. I just want to make myself clear on that score too.

Nobody said it's ok. I think where it's getting blurred is that "a day of sulking" does not make it mental abuse or rape. Pressure sure and not ok sure but not rape

nicowa · 14-04-2012 04:38PM

Kimia wrote: »

There's no denying that TC's girlfriend sounds like a drama queen (one day of sulking because you didn't want to have sex?) but I cannot agree that he was sexually assaulted or raped.

If you look back over all the stories submitted by other ladies, the ones who eventually stayed silent and went along with things believed that if they didn't, they would have been forced to anyway and they were under perceived threat of violence. It seemed like the only safe way to handle a horrible situation.

The Corinthian - did you feel that giving in and having sex was the only safe option open to you? Did you fear for your safety and liberty? Because equating nagging & sulking with threats of violence, force & the complete removal of your freedom to choose is (perhaps deliberately) inflammatory.

I have read and been horrified by what some women have been through, disgusted by what others have been through. But I still say that if someone is in a relationship where they are under pressure to have sex or be constantly demeaned (even if it's only one day a week) just cos they didn't want to. And I think that would be quite soul destroying.

--

I did define it as abuse rather than rape but I still don't think it can be put off lightly. No more lightly than anyone should allow groping in a pub - which some accept as a "compliment" as said earlier.

Kimia · 14-04-2012 04:39PM

nicowa wrote: »

I have read and been horrified by what some women have been through, disgusted by what others have been through. But I still say that if someone is in a relationship where they are under pressure to have sex or be constantly demeaned (even if it's only one day a week) just cos they didn't want to. And I think that would be quite soul destroying.

I completely agree with you. But it's not rape.

nicowa · 14-04-2012 04:41PM

nicowa wrote: »

The Corinthain - if you felt pressurised to have sex, did not want to have sex and did not enjoy it, if nothing else I would have to consider it abuse. Because if the genders were reversed and it was my friend telling me this story I would have to tell her that I felt very uncomfortable with her continuing to see this person and be intimate with them. If it's a regular occurance then I would consider it sexual violence to be presuriesed into have sex or face the "consiquences" of not. And I think that is the very start of sexual violence. Once there is a threat of consiquences. Whatever the level. Because, as has been demonstrated in cases of domestic violence and abuse what starts out small can develop into something very violent and disturbing.

Again, I said abuse, not rape.

But you're quick enough to tell a girl to get help why is this different?

Sorry if I'm dragging off topic - am I really wrong on this?

Ickle Magoo · 14-04-2012 04:43PM

nicowa wrote: »

Again, I said abuse, not rape.

But you're quick enough to the a girl to get help why is this different?

Sorry if I'm dragging off topic - am I really wrong on this?

I don't think you are wrong at all - I just think you've completely misread TC's motivations for posting...

SUPPORT for victims of sexual assault thread - mod warning post #1

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