SUPPORT for victims of sexual assault thread - mod warning post #1

lazygal

I was talking with some friends recently and I'm not quite sure how this came up but every one of us had a story about sexual encounters with men where we weren't entirely sure we were okay with what happened, myself included. In my case it was an incident with the first man I had sex with and while I won't call it a rape, I did regret what happened and, to use a phrase I'm not keen on but can't think of a better one, I did feel he took advantage of me. Every one of us had some sort of story, up to and including what one girl described as being 'basically raped'. Now I know that's not a representative sample and one of the most difficult things about the offenses of rape and sexual assault is consent and how things are interpreted. When I was thinking about it later and discussing it with someone, we both got to wondering how widespread this is. Does every group of female friends have a selection women who've been victims of what could be termed sexual assault?

Mod Warning

Wibbs wrote: »

For future reference any debate outside the support vibe will be deleted. If anyone wants to start a thread debating the ins and outs, then start it elsewhere, NOT on this thread. End of. Fin. Full stop and for our American influenced readers, Period. Thank you.

How may times do we have to state this? The next post of this nature will get the poster banned. If someone can't be bothered to read the thread on a serious subject like this then don't post. Thank you.

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For anyone that has been the victim of rape of sexual assault and needs someone to talk to/advice:

Rape Crises Centres

There are 17 rape crises centres, all of which are part of the rape crises network.

You can contact them on: 1800 77 88 88

Caraville

I don't mean to be smart here, but how can you be "basically raped"? You're either raped or you're not I would have thought.

And if you're not entirely okay with what's happening with a man, why did you continue with what was going on? If you told him to stop and he didn't, then it is rape. But if you just weren't quite comfortable yet you didn't say no, it would be hard to call that rape, I think.

Maybe I'm wrong, just my thoughts anyway.

Morag

I think most women will have been in the circumstance were they didn't want to have sex but felt they could not refuse or didn't feel safe to say no. I know it happened to me when I was young,

Caraville

Fair enough- I just never put myself in a situation with a man I wasn't comfortable with so I've no experience of that.

I find it very scary though, that there are apparently so many women ("most" women??) out there who would have had sex at one time or other simply because they were afraid to say no. Actually that's kind of terrifying really. I honestly am a bit shocked at that...

Smashhits

I've never had sex when I felt pressured but I did get myself into a situation once where I felt sexually violated by a man. I refused but he still continued on. It's a long time ago now and I haven't thought about it in a long long time. It was still an assault in my book. I think it's probably more prevalent than we think.

gypsy_rose

About two years I was absolutely hammered drunk and ended up at a party with noone I knew. Got talking to this guy in the kitchen who basically just pulled me in and kissed me before I could stop, then forced his hand down my pants. His mouth was on mine so I couldn't talk and he had me pulled in so tight I couldn't push him away. Thankfully some other people came into the kitchen and I managed to run away. Make of it what you will but I had no attraction to him whatsoever and did not want him to do that.

Fiona

Caraville wrote: »

I find it very scary though, that there are apparently so many women ("most" women??) out there who would have had sex at one time or other simply because they were afraid to say no. Actually that's kind of terrifying really. I honestly am a bit shocked at that...

I had an unpleasant experience when I was 17.

It was not a case of afraid to say no but more the knowledge that if I did say no and that if he continued against my will that it would scar me for life and if I ever went to the Garda about it that it might never go to court and if it did he could get away with it.

So at that point I made a decision in my head to just get on with it and do it and just put it down to a sympathy ride for somebody.

I know you probably think I am crazy but it was my way of dealing with it, had I not have done that it would still haunt me today.

Too many girls have cried rape in this country when it has not happened at all which makes it very hard to distinguish the real cases.

Was mine a real case or just a case of my bad judgement.....? I tend to think it was more my bad judgement as I was young. I certainly learnt from it thats for sure.

amdublin

"basically" raped :eek:

She was either raped or not.

Personally IMO if she was raped she needs to do something about it.

If she was not then she needs to stop saying she "basically" was. There is a man out there whose name is being tarnished in one sense (raped) .....but not quite completely (basically). Jesus Christ give him a chance to defend himself, call a spade a spade. Was she raped or not? There is no basically about it.

Did she say no? Or tell him to stop?
If she did, she was raped (not basically)
If she did not, she was not raped (not basically)

samina

Oh this is an issue that makes me so angry. I think every woman and young girls experiences some sort of pervert in their lives. I just think the majority of women thankfully get away more lightly for want of a better way of putting it. When I was a teenager had a man sit behind me on the bus and masterbate that's just one example I could give about five more. I just say there and hoped someone would get on the bus. I really hope that the world is different for young girls and teenagers now

newmug

This thing of "Oh I was drunk and he felt me up" or "I rode him without any protest whatsoever cos I didnt know the consequences if I didnt" is NOT sexual assault, and its pure bull to paint it as such. If you were drunk, chances are the man was too and yiz were both doing what people do when they're drunk, and if you dont tell someone you dont want something to happen, well they cant bloodywell read your mind!

To me, rape is being followed down an alley (or TRAPPED in some other way), being beaten up, and being FORCED to have sex with a gun or a knife.

samina wrote: »

When I was a teenager had a man sit behind me on the bus and masterbate that's just one example I could give about five more. I just say there and hoped someone would get on the bus.

Some aul fella having a **** on the bus behind you, while unpleasant, is far from rape. He is, quite literally, a wanker. Did you scream or make a fuss? Did you get up and move somewhere else?

theg81der

amdublin wrote: »

Was she raped or not?

And is this not the problem - how do you tell? Its all well and good to say bring on the law and let them determine the truth. This clearly isn`t something based in reality thou. This is a really grey area. Also by the time alot of women work out that it was rape a good deal of time has passed. Your really over simplifying this issue.

Op I absolutely agree with you. I don`t know any woman who hasn`t had an unpleasant or unwanted experience with someone at some time in their life. You will find that this will be disputed by men strongly as they seem to take it personally because there are some good men out there who would never do anything like this. My husband although he is definetely in the category that wouldn`t do anything remotely like this will say "sure what do you expect from a normal fella" so he clearly thinks its prevelent enough.

I think testosterone is a difficult hormone to handle and men have it in varying quantities. These experiences seem more common in peoples teens so I reckon men learn later how to control their testosterone. You just have to see how horny women get when they are drunk, which raises their testosterone levels, to understand that it is a difficult thing to control. This is only one element of course.

Wibbs

While I agree "Rape" as a word can often thrown about irresponsibly, sexual assault covers quite a bit of ground. Rape itself covers a lot of ground. Newmug would you consider rape in marriage to exist? The "classical" rape situation of being dragged down an alley at knifepoint by a stranger is statistically the rarest type(in the western world). In the majority of rapes the rapist is known to the victim, quite often a partner and direct violence is rare enough.

samina

newmug wrote: »

This thing of "Oh I was drunk and he felt me up" or "I rode him without any protest whatsoever cos I didnt know the consequences if I didnt" is NOT sexual assault, and its pure bull to paint it as such. If you were drunk, chances are the man was too and yiz were both doing what people do when they're drunk, and if you dont tell someone you dont want something to happen, well they cant bloodywell read your mind!

To me, rape is being followed down an alley (or TRAPPED in some other way), being beaten up, and being FORCED to have sex with a gun or a knife.

samina wrote: »

When I was a teenager had a man sit behind me on the bus and masterbate that's just one example I could give about five more. I just say there and hoped someone would get on the bus.

Some aul fella having a **** on the bus behind you, while unpleasant, is far from rape. He is, quite literally, a wanker. Did you scream or make a fuss? Did you get up and move somewhere else?

It is very far from rape hence me saying I think most women come across perverts but some of us get away more lightly for want of a better way of putting it. Also I said I just sat there I was upstairs on my own with this guy and I was young. You obviously didn't read the post nor the title which says sexual assault not rape.

theg81der

newmug wrote: »

This thing of "Oh I was drunk and he felt me up" or "I rode him without any protest whatsoever cos I didnt know the consequences if I didnt" is NOT sexual assault, and its pure bull to paint it as such. If you were drunk, chances are the man was too and yiz were both doing what people do when they're drunk, and if you dont tell someone you dont want something to happen, well they cant bloodywell read your mind!

To me, rape is being followed down an alley (or TRAPPED in some other way), being beaten up, and being FORCED to have sex with a gun or a knife.




Some aul fella having a **** on the bus behind you, while unpleasant, is far from rape. He is, quite literally, a wanker. Did you scream or make a fuss? Did you get up and move somewhere else?

What your saying flys in the face of facts that we know about rape. The assalent is usually not a monster in a dark alley, its usually someone known to the victim in a place they may have felt entirely safe before. A 15 stone man does not require a gun or knife to overpower a 8/9 stone woman who he very likely knows and has enough info to have picked them based on their personality. People are often so paralysed by fear and in a bid to survive they keep quiet - a very natural response that alot of women spend their life feeling guilty like its their fault because they didn`t fight or scream. This is a common feeling which leads to them not reporting the rape.

Wibbs

theg81der wrote: »

I think testosterone is a difficult hormone to handle and men have it in varying quantities. These experiences seem more common in peoples teens so I reckon men learn later how to control their testosterone. You just have to see how horny women get when they are drunk, which raises their testosterone levels, to understand that it is a difficult thing to control. This is only one element of course.

I'll try and dig up some research I read that found that sexual predators actually tested lower for testosterone and that naturally* higher test men were less aggressive which goes against what we might expect. IMHO aggression is more of it than horniness in rape cases. You see this clearly in conflicts. Soldiers hyped up on major aggression have used rape of women, children, men and old people as a weapon, not a lot of horniness involved. Rape is more an aggressive act rather than a sexual one. At the "lower" end of the scale when it comes to sexual assault, pushing it too far etc that's more a horniness(and drunkenness) thing I reckon.





*funny enough men who supplemented with test(body builders, athletes etc) showed higher aggression.

nxbyveromdwjpg

lazygal wrote: »

I did regret what happened and, to use a phrase I'm not keen on but can't think of a better one, I did feel he took advantage of me.

You both had sex, then you regretted it. If he also regretted it, does that mean you sexually assaulted him too?

Wibbs

theg81der wrote: »

People are often so paralysed by fear and in a bid to survive they keep quiet.

I'd add another aspect. OK this is just my opinion, but that opinion would be that in particular many younger women are more highly driven to be socially accepted. More easily "led" by this, more likely to go along with a pressured social situation and much less likely to say no if they feel ill at ease in a situation. You tend to get a lot more of the "I really didn't want to, but..." among younger women than the same women in their 30's

newmug

samina wrote: »

It is very far from rape hence me saying I think most women come across perverts but some of us get away more lightly for want of a better way of putting it. Also I said I just sat there I was upstairs on my own with this guy and I was young. You obviously didn't read the post nor the title which says sexual assault not rape.

I did read it, and while I sympathise with you that this happened, I was just trying to get you to expand on the incident. How do you percieve this to be a sexual assault, what defines it as such in your mind?

@Wibbs, I'm well aware that most rapes happen with familiar faces. Bottom line, to me there has to be an element of entrapment, and an element of force. Saying "I was out and drunk" or "I didnt do/say anything because I was too afraid, therefore I must have been sexually assaulted" just doesnt cut it, and in my opinion if those two excuses were eliminated, 90% of sexual assault allegations would disappear.

theg81der

Wibbs wrote: »

I'll try and dig up some research I read that found that sexual predators actually tested lower for testosterone and that naturally* higher test men were less aggressive which goes against what we might expect. IMHO aggression is more of it than horniness in rape cases. You see this clearly in conflicts. Soldiers hyped up on major aggression have used rape of women, children, men and old people as a weapon, not a lot of horniness involved. Rape is more an aggressive act rather than a sexual one. At the "lower" end of the scale when it comes to sexual assault, pushing it too far etc that's more a horniness(and drunkenness) thing I reckon.





*funny enough men who supplemented with test(body builders, athletes etc) showed higher aggression.

I was more thinking of the "lower" more common end of the scale that happened alot in our teens as opposed to the rape as a weapon fullfilling some other need of the perpetrator type. I feel this is not the "common" sexual assaults which the Op was refering to but a separate issue which I probably should have clarified. I can`t personally say I`ve encountered the type you refered to so I would perceive it as being uncommon but maybe I`m wrong.

Wibbs

nm wrote: »

You both had sex, then you regretted it. If he also regretted it, does that mean you sexually assaulted him too?

On occasion after a night out I've woken up looked over and thought "oh jesus". Where the previous night it was handed to me on a plate, even pushily so, I was pissed and went for it. Stupid on my part? Yep. Irresponsible on my part? Oh yes. Assault on her part? No, not in my humble and I'd say the same if the genders were reversed. I'd say it depends entirely on the context. I would even go so far as to say that some women out there do hype up an situation that was basically a bad decision that they want to remove personal responsibility for. This doesn't help women who have been assaulted as actual so called date rape does happen.

newmug wrote: »

@Wibbs, I'm well aware that most rapes happen with familiar faces. Bottom line, to me there has to be an element of entrapment, and an element of force. Saying "I was out and drunk" or "I didnt do/say anything because I was too afraid, therefore I must have been sexually assaulted" just doesnt cut it, and in my opinion if those two excuses were eliminated, 90% of sexual assault allegations would disappear.

So not saying something because a woman "was too afraid" doesn't show an element of entrapment/force? How so? Why else would she be afraid? Are you trying to say that if someone doesn't fight back in some way no assault has or can occur? Seriously? Lets look at another situation. Take any macho stuff of "Oh I'd fight back and kick arses" for a moment if you will. You're surrounded by three blokes acting in a menacing manner. No weapons, no overt threat involved, but you know what's going down. One of them takes your phone say. You don't fight back because of fear. Have you been mugged? According to your premise you haven't.

samina

newmug wrote: »

samina wrote: »

It is very far from rape hence me saying I think most women come across perverts but some of us get away more lightly for want of a better way of putting it. Also I said I just sat there I was upstairs on my own with this guy and I was young. You obviously didn't read the post nor the title which says sexual assault not rape.

I did read it, and while I sympathise with you that this happened, I was just trying to get you to expand on the incident. How do you percieve this to be a sexual assault, what defines it as such .

Tbh I wouldn't define this as a sexual assault, apologies for repeating myself but my point was that we all meet perverts some get away more lightly than others and offering up one such experience I had. I did not say I was sexually assaulted ever ( thankfully )

newmug

Wibbs wrote: »

On occasion after a night out I've woken up looked over and thought "oh jesus". Where the previous night it was handed to me on a plate, even pushily so, I was pissed and went for it. Stupid on my part? Yep. Irresponsible on my part? Oh yes. Assault on her part? No, not in my humble and I'd say the same if the genders were reversed. I'd say it depends entirely on the context. I would even go so far as to say that some women out there do hype up an situation that was basically a bad decision that they want to remove personal responsibility for. This doesn't help women who have been assaulted as actual so called date rape does happen.

^^^^^^^ Thats exactly the point I'm trying to make!

Wibbs wrote: »

So not saying something because a woman "was too afraid" doesn't show an element of entrapment/force? How so? Why else would she be afraid? Are you trying to say that if someone doesn't fight back in some way no assault has or can occur? Seriously? Lets look at another situation. Take any macho stuff of "Oh I'd fight back and kick arses" for a moment if you will. You're surrounded by three blokes acting in a menacing manner. No weapons, no overt threat involved, but you know what's going down. One of them takes your phone say. You don't fight back because of fear. Have you been mugged? According to your premise you haven't.

You're confusing what I said. If you look back, I said BOTTOM LINE - ENTRAPMENT AND FORCE. What I was saying about not protesting obviously applies BEFORE force is applied, like in your first example above.

Acoshla

Nope I've never been sexually assaulted in any way, I've had two experiences that I'll add here though, one was when I slept with a guy because I was unbelievably drunk, wouldn't have done it in a million years sober, but he was pushy, I thought he was only gorgeous (to be fair physically he was) and so my drunken brain thought why not? Sober brain really didn't agree after, and I've regretted it ever since (it was about 8/9 years ago), but it was my choice, my stupid choice, what guy wouldn't do it with a 19 year old girl who practically drags him to bed.

The other was a time a guy I really, really liked came home to my house after a night out, I very soon realised he was scarily drunk, he was quite forceful, aggressive, and I told him I wouldn't have sex with him. He got pretty mad, I asked him to leave, he tried the "You don't mean it, you can't make me leave", well, I did, I stayed in my room with the door locked, he went downstairs, puked in the bathroom and rubbed it all over the bathroom walls with one of my tshirts that was drying in there I spent 4 hours cleaning the bathroom through the night before heading to college, all the while cursing myself for bringing him back but being so grateful that I'd had the nerve to tell him to leave, look at the level of anger and weird revenge he had, imagine if I had backed down and let him have his way? I'd have had a lot more to deal with than my fave tshirt being ruined.

ladypip

I also have never been assaulted but I also have a story of a near miss. When I was eighteen I was out for a night out in a bar I used to frequent, My best friend had left feeling sick and id stayed with a few people that I knew to drink with. I got pretty hammered and when I left started talking to a guy outside. I knew his face and we had flirted a few times in the bar. We kissed a few times and he offered to walk me to a cab. My male friends knew him so I accepted the offer.

While walking back he asked me to come back to his place I said no, He then asked me to come back to a hotel with him, I again said no. Then while we were walking past a lane way he grabbed my arm and tried to pull me in all the while laughing, I pulled my arm away and made light of it thinking he was messing or chancing his arm. It happened again at the next lane way and I started get scared because He was getting more forceful and not laughing. I stood there struggling with him and just as I was starting to panic. A taxi pulled up and the driver called out for me, I ran over and jumped in. So there we go I know in my heart of hearts what would have happened if the taxi man hadn't stopped to help.

That guy was around 6"6 / 6"7 and strong I on the other hand am 5"4 and not very strong. I really regret not going to the garda about it because maybe he tried it with other girls and actually got them down the lane. But at the time I was just thankful it never happened and also I played it down to myself so I wouldn't get upset and weirdly id forgotten about it until I seen this thread.

dearg lady

Wibbs wrote: »

On occasion after a night out I've woken up looked over and thought "oh jesus". Where the previous night it was handed to me on a plate, even pushily so, I was pissed and went for it. Stupid on my part? Yep. Irresponsible on my part? Oh yes. Assault on her part? No, not in my humble and I'd say the same if the genders were reversed. I'd say it depends entirely on the context. I would even go so far as to say that some women out there do hype up an situation that was basically a bad decision that they want to remove personal responsibility for. This doesn't help women who have been assaulted as actual so called date rape does happen.

And you phrase it so much better than I ever could have Wibbs!

I too have a couple of incidents, from drunken snogs, to gropes to sex that I wouldn't go for right now if the option were there. But I made those choices, whether under the influence or not, they were my decisions and my responsibility. Sure the guys might have pushed it, but I was willing at the time. My only incident of an actual sexual assault happened when I was a child, and there's no blurry lines there.

Caraville

Sorry, I'm still stuck on the claim that most women have been afraid to say no to a man at least one time in their lives. Is that seriously true? Are we that afraid of men? Are men that scary? Thinking of my female friends, I doubt most of them have felt threatened by men into sex. And thinking of my male friends, I would be absolutely appalled to think they may have made a woman feel like she had no choice.

Regretting having slept with someone because they may have been a bit pushy so you didn't refuse them is not the same as being violated or assaulted and would no way stand up in a court. If you clearly said no to them and they carried in regardless, then that would be assault or rape.

As I said though, I'm just aghast at the notion that so many girls or women are having sex due to pressure or fear.

jaffacakesyum

theg81der wrote: »

And is this not the problem - how do you tell? Its all well and good to say bring on the law and let them determine the truth. This clearly isn`t something based in reality thou. This is a really grey area. Also by the time alot of women work out that it was rape a good deal of time has passed. Your really over simplifying this issue.

Op I absolutely agree with you. I don`t know any woman who hasn`t had an unpleasant or unwanted experience with someone at some time in their life. You will find that this will be disputed by men strongly as they seem to take it personally because there are some good men out there who would never do anything like this. My husband although he is definetely in the category that wouldn`t do anything remotely like this will say "sure what do you expect from a normal fella" so he clearly thinks its prevelent enough.

I think testosterone is a difficult hormone to handle and men have it in varying quantities. These experiences seem more common in peoples teens so I reckon men learn later how to control their testosterone. You just have to see how horny women get when they are drunk, which raises their testosterone levels, to understand that it is a difficult thing to control. This is only one element of course.

You know absolutely nothing about rape.

ihsb

Wibbs wrote: »

I'd add another aspect. OK this is just my opinion, but that opinion would be that in particular many younger women are more highly driven to be socially accepted. More easily "led" by this, more likely to go along with a pressured social situation and much less likely to say no if they feel ill at ease in a situation. You tend to get a lot more of the "I really didn't want to, but..." among younger women than the same women in their 30's

This is what happened to me. Nothing big but I have regretted it happening ever since and I could never even look at him afterwards. I felt pressure. The pressure was probably all in my head but I still felt it. Luckily I didn't have sex with him but it is just not a nice memory. Then there have been other situations.

Some of it is being comfortable enough in your own skin to say no, most women are more comfortable with this when they get older. Obviously if you don't say no then how can they know? So there really is a thin line.

Nyan Cat

I'm not sure about the most women have been afraid to say no bit but I have been surprised by how many have confided in me about sexual assault.

I haven't experienced sexual assault thankfully. It depends how you define it though judging by this thread.
Since the age of 15 a 50 year old man I knew would grab my ass any time I was near and make lewd gestures at me if I wasn't close enough. I hated that but really didn't think much of it. It went on for several years and escalated to the point where I was alone in a room with him and he flipped the tv over to porn and kept trying to get my attention and gesturing at me and the screen.
I made sure I was never alone with him again. Shortly after that I was advising another girl on a similar situation she was in and it clicked. This was not normal. He wasn't hurting me but he was bring extremely inappropriate and abusing his position.
I spoke to some trusted friends about it but by the reactions you'd think he had done much worse so,.. As I said I didn't want to be alone with the guy because I did fear how far he might go and I hated what he already did. But I had no desire to tarnish his name by having someone else present when I confronted him. So when he tried the ass thing I glared at him and said stop that. I avoided him too. It worked over time. He learned he was going too far I guess.

I wouldn't think to call it assault but it's something. A form of abuse maybe.
It did hurt that the person I trusted the most just shrugged it off though (stark contrast to the other reactions)

Assault covers a lot of ground though, as wibbs said

Princess Peach

Sharrow wrote: »

I think most women will have been in the circumstance were they didn't want to have sex but felt they could not refuse or didn't feel safe to say no. I know it happened to me when I was young,

I don't know if I would agree as to "most women." Thinking of all the times when we were young, a friend of mine was raped by her boyfriend. Another friend will use the phrase "basically raped" for a time she was very drunk but she has admitted that she did consent to it. But other than that I can't think of any sexual assaults. Yes I know of many "I was so drunk, I should not have slept with him" but it was consensual at all times, and I don't think safety ever came into it.

There have been times I can say I was possibly "taken advantage of" because of being drunk, but I never protested at the time so I can't lay blame. There have been times I have been in possible unsafe positions, but I left and the guys allowed me to so no harm done.

I don't think there really is anything as "basically raped." You either said no or said yes or said nothing (which in my opinion should count as a no.) I think blaming a guy for "rape" because a girl was drunk is pretty poor form. Of course there are complicated cases outside of these examples, such as in marriages, or in the case of agreeing to have sex or something worse will happen.

As for the question "Have I ever been sexually assaulted" I will say yes, as I can not count how many times some strange guy has grabbed my bum or boob. But sure apparently it was grand cause its regular behaviour in nightclubs or at festivals. Had a flaming row with a guy at a festival last summer he put his hand up my skirt and when I told him to stop he told me "I need to calm down, sure we're at a festival, its ok." Basically it was my problem for over reacting.

metaoblivia

I've been sexually assaulted a few times. The first happened when I was in college. I was heading back to my dorm room and one of the boys from the hall - who was drunk (I was not) - grabbed me, shoved me up against a wall, forced his tongue down my throat and told me if I ever wanted to ride a big c*ck I should come to his room. When he loosened his grip, I ran away. I reported it to our dorm manager and they reprimanded him, I think.

Then there was the stalker incident, which I've written about previously. What happened the night he broke in was similar to the incident from the dorm - he put his hands on me and kissed me, but there was no rape. It was a sexual assault.

And there was another, more cagey incident after that. I was on a date with a guy and we went back to his place and were making out. I kept asking him to stop, but he wouldn't. He eventually pinned me down on the bed and there was a brief moment of penetration, but I pushed him off and told him I had been saying no and he was ignoring me and I was leaving, and he got angry, and that was the end of that.

So I didn't have much luck when I was younger, but I'm happy to report that I've not had any experiences like that since the third incident, which happened many years ago.