SUPPORT for victims of sexual assault thread - mod warning post #1

MrPudding

eviltwin wrote: »

Still happens.

Yes it does, but at least it is illegal now, and whilst the process of bringing a prosecution might not be pleasant, at least it is available.

stripysocks85 wrote: »

Again, I was referring to the original post where she said her friend was 'basically' raped, and I added my own thought in reference to the drunk situations. That's all. Perhaps I was misunderstood or something, but just giving MY opinion/experiences on the matter.

basically raped, pretty much raped, effectively raped, more or less raped or raped. Basically is simply a turn of phrase used. I am, basically, a decent human being.

These drunken rape scenarios are a nightmare, for all persons involved. The entire area is a minefield. it is quite clear that rape law, specifically around consent and a woman's ability to give it, is skewed in favour of the woman, which is where it should be.

MrP

CarMe

I worked in supermacs when i was 15 and had worked there nearly all summer long, i knew all the managers and got on with everyone. An Indian guy that i hadn't met before, was well liked by everyone came back after going off to get married and honeymoon. There was a little room that we washed all the overalls and stuff and coming back from my lunch the day he had returned back, he was in the room and said hello i said hi and went to keep walking but he motioned for me to come in, it was very awkward and i thought he was saying something i couldn't hear so i moved closer to the door and he took my hand and dragged me in and pinned up against the wall and tried to kiss me and attempted to open my trousers and groped me down there, i pushed him hard off me and he said there was no cameras in there.
I went down and told my manager, she said "don't be stupid he's just back from getting married, he's a lovely guy!". I finished my shift and never went back. Im so angry at that manager, i felt i had done something wrong and never really told anyone and put it out of my head completely until now actually!

bronte

This thread has really made me think.

One time years ago I was out for the delayed St.Patricks day celebrations.
It was delayed because of the foot and mouth thing...2001 I believe.
Went in to Dublin with a friend to see the fireworks .
It was fairly rowdy in there but I didn't drink at the time so was just there to enjoy the atmosphere. We made our way home after and as I was walking down the quays to get a bus , some drunk scumbag approached me and shoved his hand into my crotch. It really hurt, and I was shocked.
I just went home and wrote it off.

The other "Almost" time was this (which I'll link to because it's long)
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65797520&postcount=131

While it didn't get physical, it did terrify me and I believe it was going that way. I consider myself so lucky I got away when I did.

I make sure to surround myself with men I trust now, and it takes me a long time to do that...probably because of the above.

I admire the women who have had the courage to tell their stories on this thread.

Eve_Dublin

I've been reading through this thread as well and thinking, no, I've never been sexually assaulted until I read Bronte's post above. Something very similar happened to me when I was travelling. I was in a bar and this older guy kept pestering me and touching me 'till he shoved his hand down the front of my jeans and grabbed my crotch. I hit him in the face and told the bouncer what happened and he was thrown out. It was shocking at the time but I wasn't traumastised and I almost forget it even happened but it was sexual assault nonetheless.

When I was a teenager, I went along with stuff I didn't really want to do to not seem "frigid" but I gave consent so it wasn't assault. There was some cases when I was very, very drunk and the guy wasn't as bad and they probably took advantage of that but still, I gave the go ahead. Hope I can teach my own children to be braver and stand on their own two feet....and to not get so plastered where they can't look out for their own safety properly.

Earthhorse

MrPudding wrote: »

it is quite clear that rape law, specifically around consent and a woman's ability to give it, is skewed in favour of the woman, which is where it should be.

Really? Surely, if it should be skewed, it would be in favour of the alleged victim, no?

Dudess

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

When I was a teenager, I went along with stuff I didn't really want to do to not seem "frigid" but I gave consent so it wasn't assault.

That's something that makes me so sad. It's a common problem - and popular culture today totally accommodates it...

I see the semantics are being argued of a woman being so out of it that she's not in a state to give genuine consent... :rolleyes:

MrPudding

Earthhorse wrote: »

Really? Surely, if it should be skewed, it would be in favour of the alleged victim, no?

Have you read my post...? I said it should be skewed in favour of the woman. Given that only women can be raped, I would expect that any alledged victims would be women. Therefore, by saying it should be skewed in favour of the woman I am saying, by extension, that it should be skewed in favour of the victim. No?

MrP

Dudess

Only women can be raped?

But men can be anally raped, or forced to have sex against their will...

MrPudding

MrPudding wrote: »

Given that only women can be raped

ehhhhh

MrPudding

Dudess wrote: »

Only women can be raped?

But men can be anally raped, or forced to have sex against their will...

Sorry, this is probably me being overly pedantic, the offence of rape can only be commited by a man against a woman. As the tone of the thread seemed to be women who had been raped or sexually assaulted my comments were made in that context.

MrP

Sonics2k

As a small counter to all this, and for the record I know exactly how serious a crime sexual assault and rape is, as both have happened to family and even my closest female friends.

Many months ago out in a pub, drinking with friends and having a good time as always. Now, I'm no longer a heavy drinker as I was once a drunk, so I'd only had maybe 2 pints of Bulmers over the course of 4 hours or so.

Anyway, talking to friends and a bunch of girls near us, a few of them obviously quite drunk, chatting about tattoos and the like. I mentioned that I have one on my stomach, and they asked to see it, and before I knew it one of the girls had literally stuck her hand down my jeans and grabbed my penis.
This was merely laughed off by everyone around and nobody thought it was bad or weird, but if I had done the same thing under the same circumstances, my ass would literally have been handed to me by the bouncers.

Why this double standard? It's not exactly uncommon for these things to happen in bars and clubs?

No, before someone kicks off at me, I'm not saying anything about being a persecuted man, just that this does actually happen.

Sexual Assault and rape are serious crimes, and if I'm honest many people call it out far to easily. For example, getting drunk and having sex with someone while you're both plastered is not rape, unless you are forced into doing so without your permission. Far to many people are confusing regretting a one night stand and sexual assault.

cynder

(snip)

Sonics2k

Dudess wrote: »

Only women can be raped?

But men can be anally raped, or forced to have sex against their will...

I'm not 100% on this one, but I'm pretty sure MrP is right on this one. Under Irish Law a man cannot be raped by a woman.

MrPudding

I have a little more time now, so let me explain further. First of all, I was using the legal definition of rape, which effectively means, rightly or wrongly, that only women can be, legally, victims of rape. Of course men can also be victims, and whilst I personally would consider that to be rape the law doesn’t. It is probably worth pointing out that this is from a UK perspective, I am not sure about the Irish position, but I expect it is something similar.
Secondly, the entire tone of the thread was around women be raped or sexually assaulted. The area of being raped or assaulted whilst drunk being one of the major areas being discuss, to the extent that the UK poster about drunken rape (which spawned a thread months ago) was reposted. It was in this context, specifically around men having sex with drunk women, that I made my comments.

So apologise if I have caused offense, that was not the intention.

MrP

Dudess

Sonics2k wrote: »

before I knew it one of the girls had literally stuck her hand down my jeans and grabbed my penis.
This was merely laughed off by everyone around and nobody thought it was bad or weird, but if I had done the same thing under the same circumstances, my ass would literally have been handed to me by the bouncers.

Why this double standard?

Not taken seriously enough when it happens to men - this has been instilled in society/culture for a long time, that a man could never object to any sexual attention. And in fairness, plenty of men hold that view (e.g. "nnnnnnnnice").

Personally I think that woman's behaviour was disgusting and she should have been kicked out.

Earthhorse

MrPudding wrote: »

Sorry, this is probably me being overly pedantic, the offence of rape can only be commited by a man against a woman. As the tone of the thread seemed to be women who had been raped or sexually assaulted my comments were made in that context.

Fair enough. You are taking a legalistic definition of the word. I would think most people don't but I'll leave it at that in the interests of not diverting the thread. Thanks for clarifying.

cynder

Sonics2k wrote: »

I'm not 100% on this one, but I'm pretty sure MrP is right on this one. Under Irish Law a man cannot be raped by a woman.

I believe a Woman was found guilty of raping a male work mate a good few years back, think it was in co cork, 4 male work mates pinned him down while she toyed with him until she could get a reaction then climbed on top and raped him.

Sonics2k

Dudess wrote: »

Not taken seriously enough when it happens to men - this has been instilled in society/culture for a long time, that a man could never object to any sexual attention. And in fairness, plenty of men hold that view (e.g. "nnnnnnnnice").

Personally I think that woman's behaviour was disgusting and she should have been kicked out.

It's not uncommon though.

Here's an example. When I was in my late teens I worked as a security for a strip club, and was even briefly going out with one of the girls there.
Strict rules were always in place that nobody watching was allowed to make physical contact with the girls, even while getting a lapdance, the men had to keep their hands down.
But when I was doing the same job on a Chipendales show, there was no force on earth that could prevent us from stopping the women in the audience groping the men. And I'm using the term groping in it's lightest form, they tried to do far more.

We live in a society with this double standard, and it comes down to one of two choices. Either it's total equality, or people stop calling 'Wolf!' about sexual assault when it doesn't happen.

MrPudding

grindelwald wrote: »

I believe a Woman was found guilty of raping a male work mate a good few years back, think it was in co cork, 4 male work mates pinned him down while she toyed with him until she could get a reaction then climbed on top and raped him.

Criminal Law (Rape) (Amendment) Act, 1990 wrote:

Rape under section 4 .
4.—(1) In this Act “rape under section 4 ” means a sexual assault that includes—
(a) penetration (however slight) of the anus or mouth by the penis, or
(b) penetration (however slight) of the vagina by any object held or manipulated by another person.
(2) A person guilty of rape under section 4 shall be liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for life.
(3) Rape under section 4 shall be a felony.

This is the Irish legal position, so only a woman can be raped, although unlike the UK law, it is possible for a woman to rape a woman.

MrP

Dudess

Sonics2k wrote: »

It's not uncommon though.

Here's an example. When I was in my late teens I worked as a security for a strip club, and was even briefly going out with one of the girls there.
Strict rules were always in place that nobody watching was allowed to make physical contact with the girls, even while getting a lapdance, the men had to keep their hands down.
But when I was doing the same job on a Chipendales show, there was no force on earth that could prevent us from stopping the women in the audience groping the men. And I'm using the term groping in it's lightest form, they tried to do far more.

We live in a society with this double standard, and it comes down to one of two choices. Either it's total equality, or people stop calling 'Wolf!' about sexual assault when it doesn't happen.

I'm aware of the male stripper being groped phenomenon - it's skanksville. What are men going to do about it though? Hardly helps when lots of men say stuff like "I'd love to be sexually harassed".
Your comment "Either it's total equality, or people stop calling 'Wolf!' about sexual assault when it doesn't happen" is hardly helpful or appropriate on a women's forum - and looks pretty confrontational. Which are all these cases of sexual assault being reported when it hasn't happened?

Sonics2k

I'm not trying to be confrontational. I'm saying that Sexual Assault is an incredibly serious thing, both for the victim and the accused.

People who are sexually assaulted should immediately contact the Gardai, and should be granted the support they need.

On the flipside, I am saying that there are people who willingly accuse others of sexual assault when it never happened, which can ruin said persons life and as a knock on effect take actual victims less seriously.

edit:
I take this seriously because a very close friend of mine was actually accused of rape, and though he was proven completely innocent in the end, it had a major impact on his life to the point he won't go back to his hometown.
Also, because of people like the accuser, the actual crime of sexual assault/rape is taken far less seriously than it should be.

Triangla

The male stripper could more than likely punch his way out of it if push came to shove.

Different story with female strippers.

Men are generally physically bigger and stronger than women and the stance around what is acceptable reflects that.

I know girls who were felt up in clubs and couldn't do anything about it except shout. No way could they have physically restrained or punched their way out.

A guy can physically work his way out.

boomkatalog

To answer the thread, yes. So many times and in so many ways that I've almost come to expect it as something that just happens. Have to wonder to I give off some vulnerable aura that attracts these types of men, because I know that these men are not the majority.

As for the comment of being 'basically raped', I sort of understand it. While its true you can't be 'basically' raped, I think that the word rape is so strong and means so much to the life of both people involved, people are reluctant to use it. A friend of mine used the exact same phrase to me before. She was drunk, fooling around with a guy, he instigated sex and she said no, he carried on anyway. I have no idea if she physically tried to get away but either way, she had not given consent. At the beginning she started to say 'he pretty much raped me' whereas the more she talked about it to me, the more she became confident enough to say 'he raped me'.

Unfortunately she doesn't want to proceed with it and I won't push her to. It disgusts me that this creep is getting away with it though, when everyone in our community thinks he is a lovely upstanding young fella with a promising career, big into his sports and with his long term gf.

Dudess

Triangla wrote: »

The male stripper could more than likely punch his way out of it if push came to shove.

Different story with female strippers.

Men are generally physically bigger and stronger than women and the stance around what is acceptable reflects that.

I know girls who were felt up in clubs and couldn't do anything about it except shout. No way could they have physically restrained or punched their way out.

A guy can physically work his way out.

But it still shouldn't happen in the first place.

Sonics2k

Triangla wrote: »

The male stripper could more than likely punch his way out of it if push came to shove.

Different story with female strippers.

Men are generally physically bigger and stronger than women and the stance around what is acceptable reflects that.

I know girls who were felt up in clubs and couldn't do anything about it except shout. No way could they have physically restrained or punched their way out.

A guy can physically work his way out.

That's terrible thinking honestly.

amacachi

Dudess wrote: »

What are men going to do about it though? Hardly helps when lots of men say stuff like "I'd love to be sexually harassed".

I'll bear that line of argument in mind in future.

Dudess

It might not suit you, but it's valid - and the coterie of guys who make a point of posting here to blame women/feminism for sexism against men would do well to bear it in mind.

Kimia

Sonics2k wrote: »

I'm not trying to be confrontational. I'm saying that Sexual Assault is an incredibly serious thing, both for the victim and the accused.

People who are sexually assaulted should immediately contact the Gardai, and should be granted the support they need.

On the flipside, I am saying that there are people who willingly accuse others of sexual assault when it never happened, which can ruin said persons life and as a knock on effect take actual victims less seriously.

edit:
I take this seriously because a very close friend of mine was actually accused of rape, and though he was proven completely innocent in the end, it had a major impact on his life to the point he won't go back to his hometown.
Also, because of people like the accuser, the actual crime of sexual assault/rape is taken far less seriously than it should be.

What's blowing my mind about this thread is that there are so many women who have been sexually assaulted and have NOT accused anyone. I think you place too much emphasis on the rare crazies tbh.

Sonics2k

Kimia wrote: »

What's blowing my mind about this thread is that there are so many women who have been sexually assaulted and have NOT accused anyone. I think you place too much emphasis on the rare crazies tbh.

I'm a bit tired, so I'm possibly not saying it as well as I want, so bear with me here :P

Actual victims of sexual assault, like those in the thread, should ideally report it as soon as possible. Even if it's only to club security, it's something they do take seriously. Go to the Gardai as well if needs be, especially in the case of rape.

What I am saying though is that those rare crazies are the ones who can cause the Gardai to take it less seriously, and that is what needs to change as well.

Kimia

Sonics2k wrote: »

I'm a bit tired, so I'm possibly not saying it as well as I want, so bear with me here :P

Actual victims of sexual assault, like those in the thread, should ideally report it as soon as possible. Even if it's only to club security, it's something they do take seriously. Go to the Gardai as well if needs be, especially in the case of rape.

What I am saying though is that those rare crazies are the ones who can cause the Gardai to take it less seriously, and that is what needs to change as well.

Noone is disputing that though. Falsely accusing someone is despicable imo. But it's not the focus of this thread, even though somehow it always gets brought up. I'm tired of hearing it at this stage - stop flogging the horse, it's already dead ok?

Constantly bringing up the false accusers when women are possibly just realizing that they have been a victim (instead of blaming themselves which is the norm) is not helpful and just throws another worry into the mix. Women who have been sexually assaulted are always going to worry 'what if it's my fault and i blame him for something i'm responsible for'. It doesn't need to be hammered home any more than it already is. Most reasonable people will not wildly accuse someone of rape.

This thread highlights the incredibly high amount of sexual assaults that are unreported because society has ingrained a huge victim blaming mentality into everyone, including the victim. That's what has to change.