Pro12: Munster vs Leinster, Sat 31 March 7:30pm, Live on RTÉ2

emmet02 wrote: »

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Because with Mafi gone, Downey will be the only 12 in the squad. We don't know if Keatley is good enough to be a backup option and its much too soon to make the call on Hanrahan.

I'd really like to see Hanrahan get some gametime next year. 3/4 pro 12 home starts anyway. Looks a good player that will learn a lot from first team exposure. Needs to iron out a few kinks, but I'd like to see him get some time with ROG at 10 and Lualala/Earls outside him he could accelerate his career hugely. Would really hope he gets some time with ROG tbh, that will be very important.

In fairness I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't play. It takes a while to get up to the size required.



I feel like the point is being lost here. Earls is a great 13 and he is definitely at international standard. If he was playing in a functional backline he'd be better able to display that. He defended well last night which is all he really could ever have been able to do. A good performance imo. I'd love to see him start in a team with Paddy Wallace.

jm08 wrote: »

I think you are stretching it a bit to be claiming that cave is the new conrad smith. the lad is 25 and he has two caps to his name. the fact that he is injured a lot means he is losing out to lads like mcfadden and o'malley. The fact that Mcfadden went to the churchill cup and he didn't says a lot as well as Mcfadden was played 'out of position' at outside centre.

I disagree with you about Hurley. He has a great boot, decent under the high ball now that he has got over a nightmare in the heineken cup final, and a great offload (way better than Kearney), but his pace isn't up to it.

I have never once said that Darren Cave is "the new Conrad Smith." That is you trying to deflect the terrible argument that pace is everything in international rugby. Its a good thing to have but coaches don't just look for who their fastest player is.

Cave and Smith are comparable as they are players who rely on their distribution and line running abilities rather than power and speed. Of course Smith is the superior player. Comparing someone to another doesn't mean they are better, or even as good as that person. It just means that they share similar qualities.

Cave has 2 caps because his sole position on the pitch is outside centre. His lack of versatility makes it harder for him to be in the 22. He either starts or is left out altogether. He is unlucky that the best player we've ever produced also happens to play in the same position.

And Denis Hurley simply isn't good enough to be an international.

Lelantos wrote: »

Are we dismissing Danny Barnes already?

He's primarily a 13 and will never be a top player. I can see him becoming a good HEC player, little more.

jm08 wrote: »

Clegg wrote: »

And as I've said already, if this were actually true then Rob Kearney would never have played for Ireland, Conrad Smith wouldn't be playing for New Zealand. BOD hasn't had any real pace for the last 4 years yet he still carried Ireland to a Grand Slam. Speed is a great asset to have but the skills and intelligence to read the game around you is more important imo.

Denis Hurley isn't a good example either as he does not have the required skills to be an international full-back that regularly plays for his country.

I think you are stretching it a bit to be claiming that cave is the new conrad smith. the lad is 25 and he has two caps to his name. the fact that he is injured a lot means he is losing out to lads like mcfadden and o'malley. The fact that Mcfadden went to the churchill cup and he didn't says a lot as well as Mcfadden was played 'out of position' at outside centre.

I disagree with you about Hurley. He has a great boot, decent under the high ball now that he has got over a nightmare in the heineken cup final, and a great offload (way better than Kearney), but his pace isn't up to it.

McFadden was playing 13 almost exclusively at that point.

As for "Darren Cave wasn't brought to the Churchill Cup says a lot...". He was a senior player and so not brought, the Churchill Cup was for lesser players. Have a look here and educate yourself as to what the state of the Irish set up at the time:

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/newsroom/3468.php

Clegg wrote: »

I have never once said that Darren Cave is "the new Conrad Smith." That is you trying to deflect the terrible argument that pace is everything in international rugby. Its a good thing to have but coaches don't just look for who their fastest player is.

Cave and Smith are comparable as they are players who rely on their distribution and line running abilities rather than power and speed. Of course Smith is the superior player. Comparing someone to another doesn't mean they are better, or even as good as that person. It just means that they share similar qualities.

From what I can see, Clermont is the toughest opposition that cave has come up against in the last 2 years, and I can't remember him as being a standout player in that. Think it was D'Arcy with pace was the star of that game along with Humphreys & Marshall. All 3 of those are pacy.

Cave has 2 caps because his sole position on the pitch is outside centre. His lack of versatility makes it harder for him to be in the 22. He either starts or is left out altogether. He is unlucky that the best player we've ever produced also happens to play in the same position.

You make your own luck. The reason he hasn't made it at international level is because he doesn't have the pace to be versatile. I doubt very much if we will be seeing him lining up opposite Mr Smith in the summer.

And Denis Hurley simply isn't good enough to be an international.

Denis Hurley was in the travelling party for the 6Ns games. Thats a heck of a lot closer than Cave has ever been.

Lelantos wrote: »

Possibly, but he's only 22 & has shown himself to have a good eye for the tryline, maybe with a bit of time & strength work he can do for us what D'arcy did for Leinster

Thats a bit of a stretch imo. Darcy was regarded as a prodigious talent back when he was 18. He was so highly regarded that Gatland wanted to bring him on a South African tour when he was due to take his Leaving Cert. He declined but then made his Ireland debut a year later at the world cup.

I think it can be argued that Darcy was more naturally talented than BOD. Of course BOD ended up being the superior player but from 04-07 Darcy was one of the finest centres in world rugby.

I think Barnes could be a good player provided he gets game time with Munster. But he'd be doing extremely well to get to the same level as Darcy.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

McFadden was playing 13 almost exclusively at that point.

As for "Darren Cave wasn't brought to the Churchill Cup says a lot...". He was a senior player and so not brought, the Churchill Cup was for lesser players. Have a look here and educate yourself as to what the state of the Irish set up at the time:

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/newsroom/3468.php

if you care to look closer, D Ryan, Ronan, Buckley, Cronin, Muldoon, Keith Matthews and a few others who went on the tour to Canada & USA played in the Churchill Cup as well, not to mention it being Sexton's 2nd CCup as he was on the one the previous year with Earls (whose first game for the Lions was as a centre) and Cave. Earls played 12 in that CCup I think.

jm08 wrote: »

From what I can see, Clermont is the toughest opposition that cave has come up against in the last 2 years, and I can't remember him as being a standout player in that. Think it was D'Arcy with pace was the star of that game along with Humphreys & Marshall. All 3 of those are pacy.



You make your own luck. The reason he hasn't made it at international level is because he doesn't have the pace to be versatile. I doubt very much if we will be seeing him lining up opposite Mr Smith in the summer.



Denis Hurley was in the travelling party for the 6Ns games. Thats a heck of a lot closer than Cave has ever been.

Cave actually had a very good game for Ulster. Himself and Wallace were in charge of keeping Rougerie and Fofana quiet and they did that quite well. Cave isn't a standout 13 in the way that O' Driscoll was. He can't waltz through defences like they weren't there. But he can distribute very well and pick good lines.

Its wrong to say that he hasn't made it at international level. That is reserved for players that have been found to be out of their depth. Cave has 2 caps so far. I've no doubt that he will get more in the future as he's the best 13 we have after BOD.

Cave was injured for the entire 6 nations so there wasn't much chance for him to be in any kind of extended squad. I'm sure you'll find that he would have been involved in a 30 man panel had he been fit. And those 2 caps he has are still more than Hurley will ever get.

You've been arguing that pace is everything in the international game and you've been told countless times that it isn't.

jm08 wrote: »

It refutes cleggs claim that:



imo, he is lacking pace to challenge Kearney, but he runs nice hard lines and has a great offload.

Being an unused squad member for the 6N proves he is international quality? I think he's been playing great this season but he is not international quality.

Tox56 wrote: »

Being an unused squad member for the 6N proves he is international quality? I think he's been playing great this season but he is not international quality.

How many times have I to say that the reason he isnt international class is because he doesnt have the pace - he has all the other skills though.

rrpc wrote: »

Luke Fitz was an absolutely fantastic fullback in his schools team and is where I first saw him play. He subsequently started for Leinster in that position; Kearney was injured in what was then his second season for Leinster. Fitz was very good in those early games but was switched to the wing when Kearney came back.

He tried for that position for Ireland a couple of seasons later, but was rusty and it didn't work out. As a long term option, it wasn't a runner anyway as Leinster had got both Nacewa and Kearney by then.

Shaggy not playing full back doesn't mean he couldn't and Tommy Bowe obviously could.

Keith Earls has played at full back and Nacewa obviously can play both positions equally well. Fionn Carr plays both and so does Andrew Conway.

The list of wing/fullbacks is a lot longer than the list of wing/failed fulbacks.

Luke was muck at fullback when he played there recently for both ireland and leinster. The only position shaggy could play was 14 (he was a terrible 12 at international level anyway) and I don't think i've seen him play fullback or at 11, ever. Possibly because who ever was coaching him didn't think he was good enough to play there and left him at 14 where he was good.

jm08 wrote: »

Earls & D'Arcy managed to do that in Paris. The min. by min. commentary has one mention of Cave:





I don't think Mick O'Driscoll was really internatational standard, but he has a few caps.



The fact that he seems to be always injured also goes against him. A coach isn't going to take a chance on building a team with someone who is injury prone.



ive not argued that once.

Darcy and Earls containing the French centres doesn't makes Cave and Wallaces achievements any less significant.

MOD had at least 4 locks that were better than him during his international career so of course he didn't get that many caps. Cave is different as there is only 1 player that is better than him in his position. It just so happens that BOD hasn't missed many games due to injury.

Yes Cave has so far proven to be injury prone but he is a vital part of Ulsters team when fit. It would be foolish for an international coach to ignore players due to previous injury.

I apologise if I've misunderstood your argument but you've gone on about pace so much that I'm not really sure what your trying to say.