Pro12: Munster vs Leinster, Sat 31 March 7:30pm, Live on RTÉ2

irishbucsfan

Dylan Hartley

Lelantos wrote: »

Tox56 wrote: »

jm08 wrote: »

Do you really think Lualala will be demanding that he starts? Jean de Villiers had to sit on the bench and he is no journeyman.

Your assuming that just because Lualala signed for munster, munster are going to play him in his favourite position. If he is that classy a player he will be able to play inside centre on occasion. johne Murphy has partnered earls in games and he is a winger.

Why would Munster buy an inside centre (Downey), a multiple-capped All-Black outside centre (Laulala) and then move that All-Black outside centre to inside-centre, to allow a winger to play outside-centre?

Also with regards to Cave's pace, McFadden is incredibly fast, he burned the Racing Metro winger they were all raving about last season in a straight out race, and also took the Clermont winger down the outside last season.

Laulala has played twice for the AB's the "great" Sam Tuitupo had played 9 tests.
Downey has been signed to be used as a physical presence, Barnes is the future, but hrs young & raw

Laulala is ten times the player of Tuitupou. That's a silly comparison to make really. They're not in the same class. Laulala has been one of the best 13s in the Celtic League for years now.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Munsters problem was they had 2 12s. I incorrectly remembered which was where but its irrelevant as the issue wad still there. Mafi at 13, out of position.

You can't just switch centers around.

But you can switch wings to the centre ? (which is what happened). maybe earls is a centre after all !

Fishooks12

jm08 wrote: »

You need pace for international rugby.

Jamie Roberts, Johnathan Davies.........................

irishbucsfan

Dylan Hartley

jm08 wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Munsters problem was they had 2 12s. I incorrectly remembered which was where but its irrelevant as the issue wad still there. Mafi at 13, out of position.

You can't just switch centers around.

But you can switch wings to the centre ? (which is what happened). maybe earls is a centre after all !

I'd say he is, yeah.

irishbucsfan

Dylan Hartley

Fishooks12 wrote: »

jm08 wrote: »

You need pace for international rugby.

Jamie Roberts, Johnathan Davies.........................

Brian O'Driscoll.......

rrpc

Dylan Hartley

jm08 wrote: »

And id argue that munster need centres because earls is rarely available for magners because of international duties. brian O'driscoll plays an average of 8 magners games a season.

Then you have to look at Nacewa and how he was moved to the wing to accommodate Kearney at fullback.

Umm... Nacewa was taken on as a 10, didn't really work out there and was moved to full back when Kearney was injured. He was moved to the wing to keep him on the team, not to accommodate Kearney who was always going to be 15.

Wing and full back are not as dissimilar as wing and centre or even 12 and 13.

Tox56

Dylan Hartley

Conrad Smith is an excellent comparison to Darren Cave.

Both are almost identical in size, 6'1 and 15 stone, neither are big or particularly fast, but Conrad Smith is one of the best (if not the best) 13's in the world.

Lelantos

Leinster

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Lelantos wrote: »

Tox56 wrote: »

jm08 wrote: »

Do you really think Lualala will be demanding that he starts? Jean de Villiers had to sit on the bench and he is no journeyman.

Your assuming that just because Lualala signed for munster, munster are going to play him in his favourite position. If he is that classy a player he will be able to play inside centre on occasion. johne Murphy has partnered earls in games and he is a winger.

Why would Munster buy an inside centre (Downey), a multiple-capped All-Black outside centre (Laulala) and then move that All-Black outside centre to inside-centre, to allow a winger to play outside-centre?

Also with regards to Cave's pace, McFadden is incredibly fast, he burned the Racing Metro winger they were all raving about last season in a straight out race, and also took the Clermont winger down the outside last season.

Laulala has played twice for the AB's the "great" Sam Tuitupo had played 9 tests.
Downey has been signed to be used as a physical presence, Barnes is the future, but hrs young & raw

Laulala is ten times the player of Tuitupou. That's a silly comparison to make really. They're not in the same class. Laulala has been one of the best 13s in the Celtic League for years now.

It wasnt a comparison, I put inverted quotes around the word great, tongue in cheek.
Laulala is a class act, and will strengthen the side, esp during 6n times when the Munster squad gets depleted.

totallegend

Leinster

jm08 wrote: »

Another thing going against cave is his lack of pace (ive seen Mcfadden burn him). You need pace for international rugby.

Are you implying McFadden is slow?

armchaircoach

Dylan Hartley

if we only accepted backs who could outpace mcfadden, then we'd be picking from a very small pool

jm08

totallegend wrote: »

Are you implying McFadden is slow?

No, he isn't slow. Neither is he stand-out fast at international level.

jm08

Tox56 wrote: »

Conrad Smith is an excellent comparison to Darren Cave.

Both are almost identical in size, 6'1 and 15 stone, neither are big or particularly fast, but Conrad Smith is one of the best (if not the best) 13's in the world.

dont think cave has ever played in the knock-out stages of the heineken cup which is when that comp. gets close to international standard which is when you might start comparing his pace to to Conrad Smith.

jm08

rrpc wrote: »

Umm... Nacewa was taken on as a 10, didn't really work out there and was moved to full back when Kearney was injured. He was moved to the wing to keep him on the team, not to accommodate Kearney who was always going to be 15.

Wing and full back are not as dissimilar as wing and centre or even 12 and 13.

Nacewa was outstanding at 15 for leinster. Thats why people were initially surprised that Kearney was given a chance there when he came back from injury.

Disagree with you about wing and fullback - just compare Andrew trimble & Rob Kearney. Trimble would never be a fullback because he isn't great under a highball and he can't kick.

irishbucsfan

Dylan Hartley

jm08 wrote: »

rrpc wrote: »

Umm... Nacewa was taken on as a 10, didn't really work out there and was moved to full back when Kearney was injured. He was moved to the wing to keep him on the team, not to accommodate Kearney who was always going to be 15.

Wing and full back are not as dissimilar as wing and centre or even 12 and 13.

Nacewa was outstanding at 15 for leinster. Thats why people were initially surprised that Kearney was given a chance there when he came back from injury.

Disagree with you about wing and fullback - just compare Andrew trimble & Rob Kearney. Trimble would never be a fullback because he isn't great under a highball and he can't kick.

Keith Earls is the same and he played there (albeit he never wanted to).

So you're saying 12s and 13s are interchangeable?

Tox56

Dylan Hartley

jm08 wrote: »

No, he isn't slow. Neither is he stand-out fast at international level.

He is one of the fastest in the Irish team, as someone said already, if we picked only 13's who are as fast as/faster than McFadden we would have very few players to chose from.

jm08

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Jamie Roberts, Johnathan Davies.........................

They runover players, great pace is not needed for that.

Fishooks12

jm08 wrote: »

They runover players, great pace is not needed for that.

What about BOD last year so?

Played some of his best rugby at 13 without any of the pace he had ten years ago

jacool

irishbucsfan wrote: »

They can't be shuffled around. Mafi/DeVilliers proved that.

Nacewa proves you can!

Tox56

Dylan Hartley

Fishooks12 wrote: »

What about BOD last year so?

Played some of his best rugby at 13 without any of the pace he had ten years ago

I'll say it again, Conrad Smith! He's a direct comparison with Cave.

Clegg

Dylan Hartley

jm08 wrote: »

dont think cave has ever played in the knock-out stages of the heineken cup which is when that comp. gets close to international standard which is when you might start comparing his pace to to Conrad Smith.

I don't understand what you're trying to say. How does Cave never having played in a QF matter to this converation?

Players don't magically gain extra pace when they play international matches. We were saying that your statement that international players require pace, is false.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Keith Earls is the same and he played there (albeit he never wanted to).

So you're saying 12s and 13s are interchangeable?

I think earls was happy enough to play fullback (played there for the Lions and in the centre, though not on the wing for them).

I'm saying that, 12 & 13 are as interchangeable as 11 & 13. McFadden is one who moves around a bit there, but I've never seen him play fullback.

For the record, earls has a good boot. He hasn't really been tested enough under the highball to say whether he is good or bad, but the fact that he hasn't been tested probably means that he isn't that poor.

irishbucsfan

Dylan Hartley

jacool wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

They can't be shuffled around. Mafi/DeVilliers proved that.

Nacewa proves you can!

He isn't nearly as good on the wing as he is at 15



I think Earls is equally good at 13 and 11. That's not because every 13 can play that well on the wing though. In fact most probably can't, including BOD.

Similarly, Laulala is a specialist 13 and if he can play 12, great. I've never heard of him playing there though (maybe he will this weekend?). If he can play 12 then why would Munster sign a 12 as well?

jm08

Clegg wrote: »

I don't understand what you're trying to say. How does Cave never having played in a QF matter to this converation.

Players don't magically gain extra pace when they play international matches. We were saying that your statement that international players require pace, is false.

In the knockout stages, the chaff has been removed from the wheat. Teams have to be playing well to make them, and they are not just there on how they did on the previous season. The games get harder from here on in.

If there is an option with pace or without pace, most coaches will go for the 'with pace' option. An example of this would be Denis Hurley - really good fullback, but he lacks pace to be a first choice international.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If he can play 12 then why would Munster sign a 12 as well?

Mafi is leaving. Barnes is the new Barry Murphy and Chambers/toava/de villiers/sammy is being replaced


Munster will have 4 centres next year - Earls, Laulala, Barnes & Downey.

ps - when Chambers was with munster, he started at 13. Earls played the 80 mins at 13 in every game he played in which was 3 games.

Clegg

Dylan Hartley

jm08 wrote: »

In the knockout stages, the chaff has been removed from the wheat. Teams have to be playing well to make them, and they are not just there on how they did on the previous season. The games get harder from here on in.

If there is an option with pace or without pace, most coaches will go for the 'with pace' option. An example of this would be Denis Hurley - really good fullback, but he lacks pace to be a first choice international.

And as I've said already, if this were actually true then Rob Kearney would never have played for Ireland, Conrad Smith wouldn't be playing for New Zealand. BOD hasn't had any real pace for the last 4 years yet he still carried Ireland to a Grand Slam. Speed is a great asset to have but the skills and intelligence to read the game around you is more important imo.

Denis Hurley isn't a good example either as he does not have the required skills to be an international full-back that regularly plays for his country.

Kinger83

Dylan Hartley

Tox56 wrote: »

He is one of the fastest in the Irish team, as someone said already, if we picked only 13's who are as fast as/faster than McFadden we would have very few players to chose from.

He's definitely quick, his try against Racing last season shows that.

http://bit.ly/HPnRqk

Tox56

Dylan Hartley

jm08 wrote: »

Clegg wrote: »

I don't understand what you're trying to say. How does Cave never having played in a QF matter to this converation.

Players don't magically gain extra pace when they play international matches. We were saying that your statement that international players require pace, is false.

In the knockout stages, the chaff has been removed from the wheat. Teams have to be playing well to make them, and they are not just there on how they did on the previous season. The games get harder from here on in.

If there is an option with pace or without pace, most coaches will go for the 'with pace' option. An example of this would be Denis Hurley - really good fullback, but he lacks pace to be a first choice international.

Cave is better than Earls at 13 in almost everything but pace, I presume you are insinuating Earls

Cpt_Blackbeard

Dylan Hartley

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Similarly, Laulala is a specialist 13 and if he can play 12, great. I've never heard of him playing there though (maybe he will this weekend?). If he can play 12 then why would Munster sign a 12 as well?

Because with Mafi gone, Downey will be the only 12 in the squad. We don't know if Keatley is good enough to be a backup option and its much too soon to make the call on Hanrahan.

Tox56

Dylan Hartley

jm08 wrote: »

Clegg wrote: »

I don't understand what you're trying to say. How does Cave never having played in a QF matter to this converation.

Players don't magically gain extra pace when they play international matches. We were saying that your statement that international players require pace, is false.

In the knockout stages, the chaff has been removed from the wheat. Teams have to be playing well to make them, and they are not just there on how they did on the previous season. The games get harder from here on in.

If there is an option with pace or without pace, most coaches will go for the 'with pace' option. An example of this would be Denis Hurley - really good fullback, but he lacks pace to be a first choice international.

The 'with pace or without pace' option depends on all other things being equal, which it isn't in the Cave v Earls debate.

Cave is better than Earls at 13 in almost everything but pace, Earls having pace does not make him a better option.

CiaranMT

Leinster

jm08 wrote: »

Mafi is leaving. Barnes is the new Barry Murphy and Chambers/toava/de villiers/sammy is being replaced


Munster will have 4 centres next year - Earls, Laulala, Barnes & Downey.

Gleeson and Dineen will still be around afaik. JJ Hanrahan can play 12, though he's probably being lined up as a ten long term.