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Pro12: Munster vs Leinster, Sat 31 March 7:30pm, Live on RTÉ2

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    #662
    totallegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    Leinster
    jm08 wrote: »
    Do you seriously think laulala is that much a better player than earls and laulala has a 2 year contract and can only be replaced at that stage by an IQ centre.

    I just don't see one of earls, zebo & howlett being dropped for him.

    I 100% disagree. Laulala is not a journeyman who is being signed for extra squad depth, he is a top-class 13 who is being signed to play the big games and is, I would imagine, being paid accordingly. He is not going to be warming the bench.


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    #663
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Do you think Munster signed him with the intention of putting him on the bench?

    No. Earls can't play every game. Earls has played 9 out of a possible 25 games this season and he had some heavy strapping on his thigh at the weekend.


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    #664
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    jm08 wrote: »
    Do you seriously think laulala is that much a better player than earls and laulala has a 2 year contract and can only be replaced at that stage by an IQ centre.

    I just don't see one of earls, zebo & howlett being dropped for him.

    There is no way that Lualala is coming to Munster to bench.

    9. Murray
    10. ROG
    11. Earls
    12. Downey
    13. Lualala
    14. Howlett / Zebo / Hurley
    15. Jones / Hurley

    will be the HEC backline next year.


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    #665
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Dylan Hartley
    jm08 wrote: »
    Considering he is about the same age as cave & O'malley, with his 30 odd ireland caps, he has a bit of an edge over all of them.

    Cave didn't make the world cup squad, he is now 26. O'malley & McFadden are well ahead of him id say.

    Earls made the WC Squad primarily as a winger, and BOD was the competition for a specialist 13.

    Earls should be assessed on his merits as a 13, not that he has more caps at international level as a winger.

    DK's conservatism + personal relationship will always make him favour Earls, which should not be the case. The bar was set so low for Earls any improvement would be exaggerated. He is no longer a liability at 13 but he was hardly setting the world alight, others should be given similar opportunity.


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    #666
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    Cave was injured all last season

    Did anyone see Les Kiss in today's Herald. O'Driscoll has to earn the 13 shirt back from incombent Earls.

    Cave was in the world cup training camp. He also started Ulster first game of the season and played 80mins. He is a year older than Earls and he has 2 caps to his name (against canada & usa). He has been overtaken. Even if the reason is that he has been injured, his injury record isn't going to improve at international level.


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    #667
    CiaranMT
    Registered Users Posts: 4,092 ✭✭✭CiaranMT


    Leinster
    Otacon wrote: »
    That's what he is trying to do. At 13.

    While I have been happy enough with his performances there, he will need to show some more attacking flair to hold off players like EOM and Cave for the jersey.

    Barring an Indian summer in the career of Darren Cave (or a run of injuries to Earls and others), he's never going to be involved in an Irish set-up.

    EOM has more of a chance but will have a job on his hands with the current Irish incumbents ahead of him in the centres at Leinster.

    Tbh I'd be surprised to see anything other than D'Arcy-BOD going to NZ.

    On the topic of Munster's back play, if I were Earls, I'd be dying to play with Downey, who I see as being our next Halstead. He'll take it to the line, make the yardage, get the hands free and put Earls and the back-three in space.

    Mafi, for all his skills, step etc, was never a 12.

    Munster seriously need to look at getting a backs coach in too. The lack of cohesion has been dragging on for well over a season at this stage.


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    #668
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    CiaranMT wrote: »
    Barring an Indian summer in the career of Darren Cave (or a run of injuries to Earls and others), he's never going to be involved in an Irish set-up.

    What makes you think that?


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    #669
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Tox56 wrote: »
    Earls made the WC Squad primarily as a winger, and BOD was the competition for a specialist 13.

    Earls should be assessed on his merits as a 13, not that he has more caps at international level as a winger.

    He made the world cup primarily as BOD's backup - BOD wasn't exactly injury free. The fact that he is a very good winger put him ahead of most the other wingers available.

    he is obviously the next choice after BOD as he was selected at 13 for the 6Ns. Mcfadden was dropped for him when he came back having missed the Welsh game through his child's illness.


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    #670
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Dylan Hartley
    jm08 wrote: »
    He made the world cup primarily as BOD's backup - BOD wasn't exactly injury free. The fact that he is a very good winger put him ahead of most the other wingers available.

    he is obviously the next choice after BOD as he was selected at 13 for the 6Ns. Mcfadden was dropped for him when he came back having missed the Welsh game through his child's illness.

    Do you really believe that?

    Nobody is denying he is next choice, but whether he should be. Cave was injured and unavailable for selection in the 6N, and was in fantastic form for Ulster and if available should have been selected, however unlikely that might have been.


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    #671
    totallegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    Leinster
    Deleted User wrote: »
    What makes you think that?

    Declan-Kidney-001.jpg


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    #672
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    DC will be around for longer than DK.


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    #673
    CiaranMT
    Registered Users Posts: 4,092 ✭✭✭CiaranMT


    Leinster
    Deleted User wrote: »
    What makes you think that?

    Kidney, simply put. We all know how he operates.

    I had age down, as somebody had written that he is/will be 26 this year. In fact, he only turns 25 on Thursday. So that isn't really valid any longer.

    Personally, I would love if Cave, EOM, and many many others were given an opportunity to impress. I just don't see it happening.


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    #674
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Dylan Hartley
    I really don't think EOM is that much of a risk, his defence has improved ever since that game v Bath, and he has started taking people lower with much better technique. He even dumped a full-tilt Banahan in the Wolfhounds game.

    He has stepped up to the next level every time he has needed to so far; excellent away v Clermont last season in their fortress, 2 tries v Glasgow and several assured performances in the HEC, and a very good performance in attack and defence for the Wolfhounds.

    Cave is my preference to see given his chance for obvious reasons, but EOM isn't exactly a huge gamble. Neither will happen of course, but it would be nice to see.


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    #675
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Tox56 wrote: »
    Do you really believe that?

    Nobody is denying he is next choice, but whether he should be. Cave was injured and unavailable for selection in the 6N, and was in fantastic form for Ulster and if available should have been selected, however unlikely that might have been.

    It suited ireland to have earls move in one position if BOD got injured. its all opinion. the problem with cave is that he only plays one position, so he has to start or forget it.

    Interesting that Eoin O'Malley is in the Ireland squad and Cave is in the Wolfhounds one. (players like Dan Tuohy and Rhys Ruddock who haven't played a lot for Ireland are also in the Ireland squad).

    http://www.irishrugby.ie/squads/index.php


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    #676
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Dylan Hartley
    jm08 wrote: »
    It suited ireland to have earls move in one position if BOD got injured. its all opinion. the problem with cave is that he only plays one position, so he has to start or forget it.

    Interesting that Eoin O'Malley is in the Ireland squad and Cave is in the Wolfhounds one. (players like Dan Tuohy and Rhys Ruddock who haven't played a lot for Ireland are also in the Ireland squad).

    http://www.irishrugby.ie/squads/index.php

    I wouldn't read much into that, Cave was unavailable for selection for 6N, EOM has only played Wolfhounds for Ireland but was selected in the training squad for this 6N without actually playing.


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    #677
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Dylan Hartley
    jm08 wrote: »
    Otacon wrote: »
    That's what he is trying to do. At 13.

    While I have been happy enough with his performances there, he will need to show some more attacking flair to hold off players like EOM and Cave for the jersey.

    Considering he is about the same age as cave & O'malley, with his 30 odd ireland caps, he has a bit of an edge over all of them.

    Cave didn't make the world cup squad, he is now 26. O'malley & McFadden are well ahead of him id say.
    Cave is 24 I think. He's definitely not 26, you've just made that up.. He has been the best Irish 13 in Ireland this season.

    Yes he has injury problems. That's a Shame. However he is also our best 13 in the absence of BOD and shows this regularly when fit.

    Earls is a very good 13 as well and I was calling for him to start ahead of OMalley against Wales because of his defense and his speed through the gap. He's not as good as Cave though, who is better at everything minus speed.

    A lot of players go through rough patches with injury when they're young and developing. Ferris, Fitzgerald, Kearney, Jones all have it. Hopefully Cave will get through it and be given the shot he deserves for Ireland. None if the injuries so far have been related which is extremely encouraging.

    As I said before his injury, Cave at 13 and Earls at 11 would be my choice for Ireland. His awareness, line breaking and passing putting Earls in one-on-one would be utterly devastating at any level. Fitzgerald and Trimble would spend the rest of their Ireland careers warming the bench if that relationship developed.


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    #678
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Deleted User wrote: »
    There is no way that Lualala is coming to Munster to bench.

    9. Murray
    10. ROG
    11. Earls
    12. Downey
    13. Lualala
    14. Howlett / Zebo / Hurley
    15. Jones / Hurley

    will be the HEC backline next year.

    Do you really think Lualala will be demanding that he starts? Jean de Villiers had to sit on the bench and he is no journeyman.

    Your assuming that just because Lualala signed for munster, munster are going to play him in his favourite position. If he is that classy a player he will be able to play inside centre on occasion. johne Murphy has partnered earls in games and he is a winger.


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    #679
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    jm08 wrote: »
    Do you really think Lualala will be demanding that he starts? Jean de Villiers had to sit on the bench and he is no journeyman.

    Your assuming that just because Lualala signed for munster, munster are going to play him in his favourite position. If he is that classy a player he will be able to play inside centre on occasion. johne Murphy has partnered earls in games and he is a winger.

    I would be absolutely astounded if come Round 1 HEC group game, and with all of the players named available, if that wasn't the backline.

    Munster have made two astute signgings.

    An actual first centre, and most importantly, an actual second centre. This will allow them to play their best left winger on the left wing.


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    #680
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Dylan Hartley
    jm08 wrote: »
    Do you really think Lualala will be demanding that he starts? Jean de Villiers had to sit on the bench and he is no journeyman.

    Your assuming that just because Lualala signed for munster, munster are going to play him in his favourite position. If he is that classy a player he will be able to play inside centre on occasion. johne Murphy has partnered earls in games and he is a winger.
    Is this not part of the problem? There seems to be a school of thought that you can just shuffle backs like a deck of cards and get the same result each time.


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    #681
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Tox56 wrote: »
    I wouldn't read much into that, Cave was unavailable for selection for 6N, EOM has only played Wolfhounds for Ireland but was selected in the training squad for this 6N without actually playing.

    The fact that cave is always injured is a problem though. The 6Ns would have been part of the prep used for the NZ tour. Hard to see Cave being brought in to start at 13 against NZ having had about a weeks training and never having played with the other 21 involved in the match day squad. O'Malley & Mcfadden are well ahead of him now.

    by the time he might get an opportunity, he will be 25 (sorry, my substraction was wrong - Cave is 25 this month).

    Another thing going against cave is his lack of pace (ive seen Mcfadden burn him). You need pace for international rugby.


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    #682
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Dylan Hartley
    jm08 wrote: »
    Do you really think Lualala will be demanding that he starts? Jean de Villiers had to sit on the bench and he is no journeyman.

    Your assuming that just because Lualala signed for munster, munster are going to play him in his favourite position. If he is that classy a player he will be able to play inside centre on occasion. johne Murphy has partnered earls in games and he is a winger.

    Why would Munster buy an inside centre (Downey), a multiple-capped All-Black outside centre (Laulala) and then move that All-Black outside centre to inside-centre, to allow a winger to play outside-centre?

    Also with regards to Cave's pace, McFadden is incredibly fast, he burned the Racing Metro winger they were all raving about last season in a straight out race, and also took the Clermont winger down the outside last season.


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    #683
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Dylan Hartley
    jm08 wrote: »
    Deleted User wrote: »
    There is no way that Lualala is coming to Munster to bench.

    9. Murray
    10. ROG
    11. Earls
    12. Downey
    13. Lualala
    14. Howlett / Zebo / Hurley
    15. Jones / Hurley

    will be the HEC backline next year.

    Do you really think Lualala will be demanding that he starts? Jean de Villiers had to sit on the bench and he is no journeyman.

    Your assuming that just because Lualala signed for munster, munster are going to play him in his favourite position. If he is that classy a player he will be able to play inside centre on occasion. johne Murphy has partnered earls in games and he is a winger.
    De Villiers had to sit on the bench because it took Holland or whoever was in charge of the backs most of the season to realise that Munsters best center combination was dV at 12 and Earls at 13. He had to play out of position at 13 which he obviously disliked so much that he fecked off back to the Stormers.

    When they both played in the right position they were great.

    Of course you want to make the same mistake with your next big name NIQ signing. Not sure that a new coach will do the same.


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    #684
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    rrpc wrote: »
    Is this not part of the problem? There seems to be a school of thought that you can just shuffle backs like a deck of cards and get the same result each time.

    The problem is that there is a shortage of 12s around. The top players can be shuffled around a bit.


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    #685
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,629 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I think Laulau was almost definitely signed to be first choice 13, but that's reasonably irrelevant considering a new coach will be coming in. They may see things differently.


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    #686
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Dylan Hartley
    jm08 wrote: »
    rrpc wrote: »
    Is this not part of the problem? There seems to be a school of thought that you can just shuffle backs like a deck of cards and get the same result each time.

    The problem is that there is a shortage of 12s around. The top players can be shuffled around a bit.
    They can't be shuffled around. Mafi/DeVilliers proved that.


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    #687
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    De Villiers had to sit on the bench because it took Holland or whoever was in charge of the backs most of the season to realise that Munsters best center combination was dV at 12 and Earls at 13. He had to play out of position at 13 which he obviously disliked so much that he fecked off back to the Stormers.

    When they both played in the right position they were great.

    Of course you want to make the same mistake with your next big name NIQ signing. Not sure that a new coach will do the same.

    de Villiers started 6 heineken cup games at 12 (and benched for the other 2). He wasn't played out of position, Mafi was.

    de Villiers had to move back to SA if he wanted to fight for his spot at the world cup. He is now the Stormer's captain.

    ps - for the record he played 3 rabo games at 13 out of 15 starts !


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    #688
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Dylan Hartley
    Munsters problem was they had 2 12s. I incorrectly remembered which was where but its irrelevant as the issue wad still there. Mafi at 13, out of position.

    You can't just switch centers around.


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    #689
    Lelantos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭Lelantos


    Leinster
    Tox56 wrote: »
    jm08 wrote: »
    Do you really think Lualala will be demanding that he starts? Jean de Villiers had to sit on the bench and he is no journeyman.

    Your assuming that just because Lualala signed for munster, munster are going to play him in his favourite position. If he is that classy a player he will be able to play inside centre on occasion. johne Murphy has partnered earls in games and he is a winger.

    Why would Munster buy an inside centre (Downey), a multiple-capped All-Black outside centre (Laulala) and then move that All-Black outside centre to inside-centre, to allow a winger to play outside-centre?

    Also with regards to Cave's pace, McFadden is incredibly fast, he burned the Racing Metro winger they were all raving about last season in a straight out race, and also took the Clermont winger down the outside last season.
    Laulala has played twice for the AB's the "great" Sam Tuitupo had played 9 tests.
    Downey has been signed to be used as a physical presence, Barnes is the future, but hrs young & raw


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    #690
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    I think Laulau was almost definitely signed to be first choice 13, but that's reasonably irrelevant considering a new coach will be coming in. They may see things differently.

    And id argue that munster need centres because earls is rarely available for magners because of international duties. brian O'driscoll plays an average of 8 magners games a season.

    Then you have to look at Nacewa and how he was moved to the wing to accommodate Kearney at fullback.


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    #691
    Clegg
    Registered Users Posts: 16,780 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Dylan Hartley
    jm08 wrote: »

    Another thing going against cave is his lack of pace (ive seen Mcfadden burn him). You need pace for international rugby.
    This is not true. If pace was a requirement then Rob Kearney would never have played for Ireland. Also, Conrad Smith is the best centre in the world and he is by no means a speed merchant. He is the best because he picks such good lines and is an amazing distributor.

    Cave is the best option for Ireland when BOD retires imo. After BOD he's the best 13 in the country. He doesn't heve the pace of Earls but his overall game is superior.


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