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Pro12: Munster vs Leinster, Sat 31 March 7:30pm, Live on RTÉ2

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Are you implying McFadden is slow?

    No, he isn't slow. Neither is he stand-out fast at international level.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Tox56 wrote: »
    Conrad Smith is an excellent comparison to Darren Cave.

    Both are almost identical in size, 6'1 and 15 stone, neither are big or particularly fast, but Conrad Smith is one of the best (if not the best) 13's in the world.

    dont think cave has ever played in the knock-out stages of the heineken cup which is when that comp. gets close to international standard which is when you might start comparing his pace to to Conrad Smith.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    rrpc wrote: »
    Umm... Nacewa was taken on as a 10, didn't really work out there and was moved to full back when Kearney was injured. He was moved to the wing to keep him on the team, not to accommodate Kearney who was always going to be 15.

    Wing and full back are not as dissimilar as wing and centre or even 12 and 13.

    Nacewa was outstanding at 15 for leinster. Thats why people were initially surprised that Kearney was given a chance there when he came back from injury.

    Disagree with you about wing and fullback - just compare Andrew trimble & Rob Kearney. Trimble would never be a fullback because he isn't great under a highball and he can't kick.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Dylan Hartley
    jm08 wrote: »
    rrpc wrote: »
    Umm... Nacewa was taken on as a 10, didn't really work out there and was moved to full back when Kearney was injured. He was moved to the wing to keep him on the team, not to accommodate Kearney who was always going to be 15.

    Wing and full back are not as dissimilar as wing and centre or even 12 and 13.

    Nacewa was outstanding at 15 for leinster. Thats why people were initially surprised that Kearney was given a chance there when he came back from injury.

    Disagree with you about wing and fullback - just compare Andrew trimble & Rob Kearney. Trimble would never be a fullback because he isn't great under a highball and he can't kick.
    Keith Earls is the same and he played there (albeit he never wanted to).

    So you're saying 12s and 13s are interchangeable?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Dylan Hartley
    jm08 wrote: »
    No, he isn't slow. Neither is he stand-out fast at international level.

    He is one of the fastest in the Irish team, as someone said already, if we picked only 13's who are as fast as/faster than McFadden we would have very few players to chose from.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Fishooks12 wrote: »
    Jamie Roberts, Johnathan Davies.........................

    They runover players, great pace is not needed for that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    jm08 wrote: »
    They runover players, great pace is not needed for that.

    What about BOD last year so?

    Played some of his best rugby at 13 without any of the pace he had ten years ago


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,153 ✭✭✭jacool


    They can't be shuffled around. Mafi/DeVilliers proved that.
    Nacewa proves you can!


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Dylan Hartley
    Fishooks12 wrote: »
    What about BOD last year so?

    Played some of his best rugby at 13 without any of the pace he had ten years ago

    I'll say it again, Conrad Smith! He's a direct comparison with Cave.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,427 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Dylan Hartley
    jm08 wrote: »
    dont think cave has ever played in the knock-out stages of the heineken cup which is when that comp. gets close to international standard which is when you might start comparing his pace to to Conrad Smith.
    I don't understand what you're trying to say. How does Cave never having played in a QF matter to this converation?

    Players don't magically gain extra pace when they play international matches. We were saying that your statement that international players require pace, is false.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Keith Earls is the same and he played there (albeit he never wanted to).

    So you're saying 12s and 13s are interchangeable?

    I think earls was happy enough to play fullback (played there for the Lions and in the centre, though not on the wing for them).

    I'm saying that, 12 & 13 are as interchangeable as 11 & 13. McFadden is one who moves around a bit there, but I've never seen him play fullback.

    For the record, earls has a good boot. He hasn't really been tested enough under the highball to say whether he is good or bad, but the fact that he hasn't been tested probably means that he isn't that poor.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Dylan Hartley
    jacool wrote: »
    They can't be shuffled around. Mafi/DeVilliers proved that.
    Nacewa proves you can!
    He isn't nearly as good on the wing as he is at 15



    I think Earls is equally good at 13 and 11. That's not because every 13 can play that well on the wing though. In fact most probably can't, including BOD.

    Similarly, Laulala is a specialist 13 and if he can play 12, great. I've never heard of him playing there though (maybe he will this weekend?). If he can play 12 then why would Munster sign a 12 as well?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Clegg wrote: »
    I don't understand what you're trying to say. How does Cave never having played in a QF matter to this converation.

    Players don't magically gain extra pace when they play international matches. We were saying that your statement that international players require pace, is false.

    In the knockout stages, the chaff has been removed from the wheat. Teams have to be playing well to make them, and they are not just there on how they did on the previous season. The games get harder from here on in.

    If there is an option with pace or without pace, most coaches will go for the 'with pace' option. An example of this would be Denis Hurley - really good fullback, but he lacks pace to be a first choice international.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    If he can play 12 then why would Munster sign a 12 as well?

    Mafi is leaving. Barnes is the new Barry Murphy and Chambers/toava/de villiers/sammy is being replaced


    Munster will have 4 centres next year - Earls, Laulala, Barnes & Downey.

    ps - when Chambers was with munster, he started at 13. Earls played the 80 mins at 13 in every game he played in which was 3 games.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,427 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Dylan Hartley
    jm08 wrote: »
    In the knockout stages, the chaff has been removed from the wheat. Teams have to be playing well to make them, and they are not just there on how they did on the previous season. The games get harder from here on in.

    If there is an option with pace or without pace, most coaches will go for the 'with pace' option. An example of this would be Denis Hurley - really good fullback, but he lacks pace to be a first choice international.
    And as I've said already, if this were actually true then Rob Kearney would never have played for Ireland, Conrad Smith wouldn't be playing for New Zealand. BOD hasn't had any real pace for the last 4 years yet he still carried Ireland to a Grand Slam. Speed is a great asset to have but the skills and intelligence to read the game around you is more important imo.

    Denis Hurley isn't a good example either as he does not have the required skills to be an international full-back that regularly plays for his country.


  • Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭Kinger83


    Dylan Hartley
    Tox56 wrote: »
    He is one of the fastest in the Irish team, as someone said already, if we picked only 13's who are as fast as/faster than McFadden we would have very few players to chose from.

    He's definitely quick, his try against Racing last season shows that.

    http://bit.ly/HPnRqk


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Dylan Hartley
    jm08 wrote: »
    Clegg wrote: »
    I don't understand what you're trying to say. How does Cave never having played in a QF matter to this converation.

    Players don't magically gain extra pace when they play international matches. We were saying that your statement that international players require pace, is false.

    In the knockout stages, the chaff has been removed from the wheat. Teams have to be playing well to make them, and they are not just there on how they did on the previous season. The games get harder from here on in.

    If there is an option with pace or without pace, most coaches will go for the 'with pace' option. An example of this would be Denis Hurley - really good fullback, but he lacks pace to be a first choice international.

    Cave is better than Earls at 13 in almost everything but pace, I presume you are insinuating Earls


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Cpt_Blackbeard


    Dylan Hartley
    Similarly, Laulala is a specialist 13 and if he can play 12, great. I've never heard of him playing there though (maybe he will this weekend?). If he can play 12 then why would Munster sign a 12 as well?

    Because with Mafi gone, Downey will be the only 12 in the squad. We don't know if Keatley is good enough to be a backup option and its much too soon to make the call on Hanrahan.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Dylan Hartley
    jm08 wrote: »
    Clegg wrote: »
    I don't understand what you're trying to say. How does Cave never having played in a QF matter to this converation.

    Players don't magically gain extra pace when they play international matches. We were saying that your statement that international players require pace, is false.

    In the knockout stages, the chaff has been removed from the wheat. Teams have to be playing well to make them, and they are not just there on how they did on the previous season. The games get harder from here on in.

    If there is an option with pace or without pace, most coaches will go for the 'with pace' option. An example of this would be Denis Hurley - really good fullback, but he lacks pace to be a first choice international.

    The 'with pace or without pace' option depends on all other things being equal, which it isn't in the Cave v Earls debate.

    Cave is better than Earls at 13 in almost everything but pace, Earls having pace does not make him a better option.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,092 ✭✭✭CiaranMT


    Leinster
    jm08 wrote: »
    Mafi is leaving. Barnes is the new Barry Murphy and Chambers/toava/de villiers/sammy is being replaced


    Munster will have 4 centres next year - Earls, Laulala, Barnes & Downey.

    Gleeson and Dineen will still be around afaik. JJ Hanrahan can play 12, though he's probably being lined up as a ten long term.


  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Agustin Mushy Grenade


    Because with Mafi gone, Downey will be the only 12 in the squad. We don't know if Keatley is good enough to be a backup option and its much too soon to make the call on Hanrahan.

    I'd really like to see Hanrahan get some gametime next year. 3/4 pro 12 home starts anyway. Looks a good player that will learn a lot from first team exposure. Needs to iron out a few kinks, but I'd like to see him get some time with ROG at 10 and Lualala/Earls outside him he could accelerate his career hugely. Would really hope he gets some time with ROG tbh, that will be very important.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,264 ✭✭✭✭Fireball07


    Leinster
    CiaranMT wrote: »
    Gleeson and Dineen will still be around afaik. JJ Hanrahan can play 12, though he's probably being lined up as a ten long term.

    As of now, neither Gleeson nor Dineen are really good enough.

    Barnes has played 12 and might do at a push but it would be nice if Laulala could play there to a reasonably high standard. Otherwise if Downey gets injured, we'd be in trouble.


    Hurley to 12 is still a possible option.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Dylan Hartley
    Because with Mafi gone, Downey will be the only 12 in the squad. We don't know if Keatley is good enough to be a backup option and its much too soon to make the call on Hanrahan.

    I'd really like to see Hanrahan get some gametime next year. 3/4 pro 12 home starts anyway. Looks a good player that will learn a lot from first team exposure. Needs to iron out a few kinks, but I'd like to see him get some time with ROG at 10 and Lualala/Earls outside him he could accelerate his career hugely. Would really hope he gets some time with ROG tbh, that will be very important.
    In fairness I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't play. It takes a while to get up to the size required.



    I feel like the point is being lost here. Earls is a great 13 and he is definitely at international standard. If he was playing in a functional backline he'd be better able to display that. He defended well last night which is all he really could ever have been able to do. A good performance imo. I'd love to see him start in a team with Paddy Wallace.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Clegg wrote: »
    And as I've said already, if this were actually true then Rob Kearney would never have played for Ireland, Conrad Smith wouldn't be playing for New Zealand. BOD hasn't had any real pace for the last 4 years yet he still carried Ireland to a Grand Slam. Speed is a great asset to have but the skills and intelligence to read the game around you is more important imo.

    Denis Hurley isn't a good example either as he does not have the required skills to be an international full-back that regularly plays for his country.

    I think you are stretching it a bit to be claiming that cave is the new conrad smith. the lad is 25 and he has two caps to his name. the fact that he is injured a lot means he is losing out to lads like mcfadden and o'malley. The fact that Mcfadden went to the churchill cup and he didn't says a lot as well as Mcfadden was played 'out of position' at outside centre.

    I disagree with you about Hurley. He has a great boot, decent under the high ball now that he has got over a nightmare in the heineken cup final, and a great offload (way better than Kearney), but his pace isn't up to it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,427 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Dylan Hartley
    jm08 wrote: »
    I think you are stretching it a bit to be claiming that cave is the new conrad smith. the lad is 25 and he has two caps to his name. the fact that he is injured a lot means he is losing out to lads like mcfadden and o'malley. The fact that Mcfadden went to the churchill cup and he didn't says a lot as well as Mcfadden was played 'out of position' at outside centre.

    I disagree with you about Hurley. He has a great boot, decent under the high ball now that he has got over a nightmare in the heineken cup final, and a great offload (way better than Kearney), but his pace isn't up to it.
    I have never once said that Darren Cave is "the new Conrad Smith." That is you trying to deflect the terrible argument that pace is everything in international rugby. Its a good thing to have but coaches don't just look for who their fastest player is.

    Cave and Smith are comparable as they are players who rely on their distribution and line running abilities rather than power and speed. Of course Smith is the superior player. Comparing someone to another doesn't mean they are better, or even as good as that person. It just means that they share similar qualities.

    Cave has 2 caps because his sole position on the pitch is outside centre. His lack of versatility makes it harder for him to be in the 22. He either starts or is left out altogether. He is unlucky that the best player we've ever produced also happens to play in the same position.

    And Denis Hurley simply isn't good enough to be an international.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Dylan Hartley
    jm08 wrote: »
    Nacewa was outstanding at 15 for leinster. Thats why people were initially surprised that Kearney was given a chance there when he came back from injury.

    Disagree with you about wing and fullback - just compare Andrew trimble & Rob Kearney. Trimble would never be a fullback because he isn't great under a highball and he can't kick.
    Both are important attributes for playing wing as well. All you're sayiing there is that Trimble isn't a fuilly rounded winger - which we all knew anyway.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    jm08 wrote: »
    No, he isn't slow. Neither is he stand-out fast at international level.

    McFadden is probably one of, if not the fastest Irish player currently in a flat-out chase. I'd rate Carr or Earls as the only faster players currently, but that's all speculation really. I've just seen McFadden run 80 meters and make it look like 10 meters.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭Lelantos


    Leinster
    Similarly, Laulala is a specialist 13 and if he can play 12, great. I've never heard of him playing there though (maybe he will this weekend?). If he can play 12 then why would Munster sign a 12 as well?

    Because with Mafi gone, Downey will be the only 12 in the squad. We don't know if Keatley is good enough to be a backup option and its much too soon to make the call on Hanrahan.
    Are we dismissing Danny Barnes already?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Cpt_Blackbeard


    Dylan Hartley
    Lelantos wrote: »
    Are we dismissing Danny Barnes already?

    He's primarily a 13 and will never be a top player. I can see him becoming a good HEC player, little more.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭Lelantos


    Leinster
    Lelantos wrote: »
    Are we dismissing Danny Barnes already?

    He's primarily a 13 and will never be a top player. I can see him becoming a good HEC player, little more.
    Possibly, but he's only 22 & has shown himself to have a good eye for the tryline, maybe with a bit of time & strength work he can do for us what D'arcy did for Leinster


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Dylan Hartley
    jm08 wrote: »
    Clegg wrote: »
    And as I've said already, if this were actually true then Rob Kearney would never have played for Ireland, Conrad Smith wouldn't be playing for New Zealand. BOD hasn't had any real pace for the last 4 years yet he still carried Ireland to a Grand Slam. Speed is a great asset to have but the skills and intelligence to read the game around you is more important imo.

    Denis Hurley isn't a good example either as he does not have the required skills to be an international full-back that regularly plays for his country.

    I think you are stretching it a bit to be claiming that cave is the new conrad smith. the lad is 25 and he has two caps to his name. the fact that he is injured a lot means he is losing out to lads like mcfadden and o'malley. The fact that Mcfadden went to the churchill cup and he didn't says a lot as well as Mcfadden was played 'out of position' at outside centre.

    I disagree with you about Hurley. He has a great boot, decent under the high ball now that he has got over a nightmare in the heineken cup final, and a great offload (way better than Kearney), but his pace isn't up to it.
    McFadden was playing 13 almost exclusively at that point.

    As for "Darren Cave wasn't brought to the Churchill Cup says a lot...". He was a senior player and so not brought, the Churchill Cup was for lesser players. Have a look here and educate yourself as to what the state of the Irish set up at the time:

    http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/newsroom/3468.php


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    Lelantos wrote: »
    Possibly, but he's only 22 & has shown himself to have a good eye for the tryline, maybe with a bit of time & strength work he can do for us what D'arcy did for Leinster

    With all due respect to Barnes, who seems to be an extremely dedicated and hardworking player, he'll need a lot more than strength work to reach the level Darce was at. Darce was a tyro, asked to tour with Ireland's senior team to South Africa before sitting his leaving cert in 1998. Barnes doesn't have that natural ability. He should be commended though. He chases every lost cause and works very hard. I think he could be a very good HEC player if he keeps his head down.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Clegg wrote: »
    I have never once said that Darren Cave is "the new Conrad Smith." That is you trying to deflect the terrible argument that pace is everything in international rugby. Its a good thing to have but coaches don't just look for who their fastest player is.

    Cave and Smith are comparable as they are players who rely on their distribution and line running abilities rather than power and speed. Of course Smith is the superior player. Comparing someone to another doesn't mean they are better, or even as good as that person. It just means that they share similar qualities.

    From what I can see, Clermont is the toughest opposition that cave has come up against in the last 2 years, and I can't remember him as being a standout player in that. Think it was D'Arcy with pace was the star of that game along with Humphreys & Marshall. All 3 of those are pacy.
    Cave has 2 caps because his sole position on the pitch is outside centre. His lack of versatility makes it harder for him to be in the 22. He either starts or is left out altogether. He is unlucky that the best player we've ever produced also happens to play in the same position.

    You make your own luck. The reason he hasn't made it at international level is because he doesn't have the pace to be versatile. I doubt very much if we will be seeing him lining up opposite Mr Smith in the summer.
    And Denis Hurley simply isn't good enough to be an international.

    Denis Hurley was in the travelling party for the 6Ns games. Thats a heck of a lot closer than Cave has ever been.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    rrpc wrote: »
    Both are important attributes for playing wing as well. All you're sayiing there is that Trimble isn't a fuilly rounded winger - which we all knew anyway.

    Luke Fitz didn't cut it at fullback either. He has been much better as a centre. Shane Horgan played a bit in the centre, but never fullback. Tommy Bowe has played there a few times, but I'd say he has played more at centre than fullback.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,427 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Dylan Hartley
    Lelantos wrote: »
    Possibly, but he's only 22 & has shown himself to have a good eye for the tryline, maybe with a bit of time & strength work he can do for us what D'arcy did for Leinster
    Thats a bit of a stretch imo. Darcy was regarded as a prodigious talent back when he was 18. He was so highly regarded that Gatland wanted to bring him on a South African tour when he was due to take his Leaving Cert. He declined but then made his Ireland debut a year later at the world cup.

    I think it can be argued that Darcy was more naturally talented than BOD. Of course BOD ended up being the superior player but from 04-07 Darcy was one of the finest centres in world rugby.

    I think Barnes could be a good player provided he gets game time with Munster. But he'd be doing extremely well to get to the same level as Darcy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Dylan Hartley
    jm08 wrote: »
    Denis Hurley was in the travelling party for the 6Ns games. Thats a heck of a lot closer than Cave has ever been.

    What does that prove?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    McFadden was playing 13 almost exclusively at that point.

    As for "Darren Cave wasn't brought to the Churchill Cup says a lot...". He was a senior player and so not brought, the Churchill Cup was for lesser players. Have a look here and educate yourself as to what the state of the Irish set up at the time:

    http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/newsroom/3468.php

    if you care to look closer, D Ryan, Ronan, Buckley, Cronin, Muldoon, Keith Matthews and a few others who went on the tour to Canada & USA played in the Churchill Cup as well, not to mention it being Sexton's 2nd CCup as he was on the one the previous year with Earls (whose first game for the Lions was as a centre) and Cave. Earls played 12 in that CCup I think.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Dylan Hartley
    jm08 wrote: »
    McFadden was playing 13 almost exclusively at that point.

    As for "Darren Cave wasn't brought to the Churchill Cup says a lot...". He was a senior player and so not brought, the Churchill Cup was for lesser players. Have a look here and educate yourself as to what the state of the Irish set up at the time:

    http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/newsroom/3468.php

    if you care to look closer, D Ryan, Ronan, Buckley, Cronin, Muldoon, Keith Matthews and a few others who went on the tour to Canada & USA played in the Churchill Cup as well, not to mention it being Sexton's 2nd CCup as he was on the one the previous year with Earls (whose first game for the Lions was as a centre) and Cave. Earls played 12 in that CCup I think.
    Are you claiming Cave was deemed good enough to start for Ireland but at the exact same time not good enough for the Ireland A squad? Haha


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    Leinster
    jm08 wrote: »
    Denis Hurley was in the travelling party for the 6Ns games. Thats a heck of a lot closer than Cave has ever been.

    Oh no, not ANOTHER Cave v Hurley argument...

    Lads, it's possibly time to take a breath, maybe look at the title of the thread and maybe ask how relevant this is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Dylan Hartley
    jm08 wrote: »
    Luke Fitz didn't cut it at fullback either. He has been much better as a centre. Shane Horgan played a bit in the centre, but never fullback. Tommy Bowe has played there a few times, but I'd say he has played more at centre than fullback.
    Luke Fitz was an absolutely fantastic fullback in his schools team and is where I first saw him play. He subsequently started for Leinster in that position; Kearney was injured in what was then his second season for Leinster. Fitz was very good in those early games but was switched to the wing when Kearney came back.

    He tried for that position for Ireland a couple of seasons later, but was rusty and it didn't work out. As a long term option, it wasn't a runner anyway as Leinster had got both Nacewa and Kearney by then.

    Shaggy not playing full back doesn't mean he couldn't and Tommy Bowe obviously could.

    Keith Earls has played at full back and Nacewa obviously can play both positions equally well. Fionn Carr plays both and so does Andrew Conway.

    The list of wing/fullbacks is a lot longer than the list of wing/failed fulbacks.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,427 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Dylan Hartley
    jm08 wrote: »
    From what I can see, Clermont is the toughest opposition that cave has come up against in the last 2 years, and I can't remember him as being a standout player in that. Think it was D'Arcy with pace was the star of that game along with Humphreys & Marshall. All 3 of those are pacy.



    You make your own luck. The reason he hasn't made it at international level is because he doesn't have the pace to be versatile. I doubt very much if we will be seeing him lining up opposite Mr Smith in the summer.



    Denis Hurley was in the travelling party for the 6Ns games. Thats a heck of a lot closer than Cave has ever been.
    Cave actually had a very good game for Ulster. Himself and Wallace were in charge of keeping Rougerie and Fofana quiet and they did that quite well. Cave isn't a standout 13 in the way that O' Driscoll was. He can't waltz through defences like they weren't there. But he can distribute very well and pick good lines.

    Its wrong to say that he hasn't made it at international level. That is reserved for players that have been found to be out of their depth. Cave has 2 caps so far. I've no doubt that he will get more in the future as he's the best 13 we have after BOD.

    Cave was injured for the entire 6 nations so there wasn't much chance for him to be in any kind of extended squad. I'm sure you'll find that he would have been involved in a 30 man panel had he been fit. And those 2 caps he has are still more than Hurley will ever get.

    You've been arguing that pace is everything in the international game and you've been told countless times that it isn't.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Tox56 wrote: »
    What does that prove?

    It refutes cleggs claim that:
    And Denis Hurley simply isn't good enough to be an international.

    imo, he is lacking pace to challenge Kearney, but he runs nice hard lines and has a great offload.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Dylan Hartley
    jm08 wrote: »
    It refutes cleggs claim that:



    imo, he is lacking pace to challenge Kearney, but he runs nice hard lines and has a great offload.

    Being an unused squad member for the 6N proves he is international quality? I think he's been playing great this season but he is not international quality.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Clegg wrote: »
    Cave actually had a very good game for Ulster. Himself and Wallace were in charge of keeping Rougerie and Fofana quiet and they did that quite well. Cave isn't a standout 13 in the way that O' Driscoll was. He can't waltz through defences like they weren't there. But he can distribute very well and pick good lines.

    Earls & D'Arcy managed to do that in Paris. The min. by min. commentary has one mention of Cave:
    10min: Darren Cave runs down the right but drops it and Claremont get possession but Ulster win a scrum after holding up Parra.
    Its wrong to say that he hasn't made it at international level. That is reserved for players that have been found to be out of their depth. Cave has 2 caps so far. I've no doubt that he will get more in the future as he's the best 13 we have after BOD.

    I don't think Mick O'Driscoll was really internatational standard, but he has a few caps.
    Cave was injured for the entire 6 nations so there wasn't much chance for him to be in any kind of extended squad. I'm sure you'll find that he would have been involved in a 30 man panel had he been fit. And those 2 caps he has are still more than Hurley will ever get.

    The fact that he seems to be always injured also goes against him. A coach isn't going to take a chance on building a team with someone who is injury prone.
    You've been arguing that pace is everything in the international game and you've been told countless times that it isn't.

    ive not argued that once.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Tox56 wrote: »
    Being an unused squad member for the 6N proves he is international quality? I think he's been playing great this season but he is not international quality.

    How many times have I to say that the reason he isnt international class is because he doesnt have the pace - he has all the other skills though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Dylan Hartley
    jm08 wrote: »
    Tox56 wrote: »
    Being an unused squad member for the 6N proves he is international quality? I think he's been playing great this season but he is not international quality.

    How many times have I to say that the reason he isnt international class is because he doesnt have the pace - he has all the other skills though.
    Hurley is poor under the high ball. Far poorer than Kearney.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    rrpc wrote: »
    Luke Fitz was an absolutely fantastic fullback in his schools team and is where I first saw him play. He subsequently started for Leinster in that position; Kearney was injured in what was then his second season for Leinster. Fitz was very good in those early games but was switched to the wing when Kearney came back.

    He tried for that position for Ireland a couple of seasons later, but was rusty and it didn't work out. As a long term option, it wasn't a runner anyway as Leinster had got both Nacewa and Kearney by then.

    Shaggy not playing full back doesn't mean he couldn't and Tommy Bowe obviously could.

    Keith Earls has played at full back and Nacewa obviously can play both positions equally well. Fionn Carr plays both and so does Andrew Conway.

    The list of wing/fullbacks is a lot longer than the list of wing/failed fulbacks.

    Luke was muck at fullback when he played there recently for both ireland and leinster. The only position shaggy could play was 14 (he was a terrible 12 at international level anyway) and I don't think i've seen him play fullback or at 11, ever. Possibly because who ever was coaching him didn't think he was good enough to play there and left him at 14 where he was good.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Hurley is poor under the high ball. Far poorer than Kearney.

    Think he is alright again. Took him a while to get his confidence back after the 08 heineken cup final, but is fine again.

    Not many as good as kearney under the high ball anyway.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,427 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Dylan Hartley
    jm08 wrote: »
    Earls & D'Arcy managed to do that in Paris. The min. by min. commentary has one mention of Cave:





    I don't think Mick O'Driscoll was really internatational standard, but he has a few caps.



    The fact that he seems to be always injured also goes against him. A coach isn't going to take a chance on building a team with someone who is injury prone.



    ive not argued that once.
    Darcy and Earls containing the French centres doesn't makes Cave and Wallaces achievements any less significant.

    MOD had at least 4 locks that were better than him during his international career so of course he didn't get that many caps. Cave is different as there is only 1 player that is better than him in his position. It just so happens that BOD hasn't missed many games due to injury.

    Yes Cave has so far proven to be injury prone but he is a vital part of Ulsters team when fit. It would be foolish for an international coach to ignore players due to previous injury.

    I apologise if I've misunderstood your argument but you've gone on about pace so much that I'm not really sure what your trying to say.


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  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Agustin Mushy Grenade


    I once tried to shout louder than the crazy guy on Grafton street.

    I soon became hoarse and everyone was annoyed at me too.

    I feel there is a lesson that we can learn from this.


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