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UFC 140 - Jones vs. Machida - 10th Dec. Spoilers inside

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    #332
    jayteecork
    Site Banned Posts: 5,676 ✭✭✭jayteecork


    Man poor Tito was in some pain!


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    #333
    conor678
    Registered Users Posts: 376 ✭✭conor678


    Continuing on from the discussion about Jones' sportsmanship check out this:
    http://www.cagepotato.com/video-greg-jackson-coaches-jon-jones-on-post-fight-etiquette/

    I like Jones I think he's a real talent and I think there's a fine line between confidence and cockiness and he tows it but the whole choke thing isn't going to win him extra fans!


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    #334
    jayteecork
    Site Banned Posts: 5,676 ✭✭✭jayteecork


    conor678 wrote: »
    Continuing on from the discussion about Jones' sportsmanship check out this:
    http://www.cagepotato.com/video-greg-jackson-coaches-jon-jones-on-post-fight-etiquette/

    I like Jones I think he's a real talent and I think there's a fine line between confidence and cockiness and he tows it but the whole choke thing isn't going to win him extra fans!

    Wow, it only seems on account of Greg Jackson screaming at him did Bones even bother going to check on Lyoto.

    Man Machida is 33 and not getting any younger but I@d love to see him having another shot. He'd have to put away Shogun and probably Phil Davis but I'd like to see it.


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    #335
    pauldoo
    Registered Users Posts: 635 ✭✭✭pauldoo


    conor678 wrote: »
    Continuing on from the discussion about Jones' sportsmanship check out this:
    http://www.cagepotato.com/video-greg-jackson-coaches-jon-jones-on-post-fight-etiquette/

    I like Jones I think he's a real talent and I think there's a fine line between confidence and cockiness and he tows it but the whole choke thing isn't going to win him extra fans!

    Jesus, that pretty bad from jones


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    #336
    Zero-Cool
    Registered Users Posts: 29,601 ✭✭✭✭Zero-Cool


    I thought it was worse when jones told joe he knew he was asleep. He was waiting for the ref to stop it. Mad for someone to kick his arse put him in his place but can't see anyone doing it.

    On other news, Mir said he will gladly step in and fight Lesnar if overeem is out. Come on Mir, get back that title!


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    #337
    loremolis
    Registered Users Posts: 944 ✭✭✭loremolis


    Am I reading the previous few pages correctly?

    I see that Mir won by TKO even though he submitted Big Nog and Nog didn't black out and Jones won by submission even though Machida was unconcious i.e. knocked out.

    It's making betting on these fights difficult to say the least.


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    #338
    Fall_Guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 776 ✭✭✭Fall_Guy


    loremolis wrote: »
    Am I reading the previous few pages correctly?

    I see that Mir won by TKO even though he submitted Big Nog and Nog didn't black out and Jones won by submission even though Machida was unconcious i.e. knocked out.

    It's making betting on these fights difficult to say the least.

    Both those were technical submission victories in my book (and for betting purposes, they were submission victories for sure, as I had both the fighters in question to win by ko/tko and both were losing bets!). The Nog one is a little less clear cut as he did tap (too late unfortunately), but I think Herb Dean stopped the fight on the basis of the injury and hadn't even seen the tap.


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    #339
    loremolis
    Registered Users Posts: 944 ✭✭✭loremolis


    Fall_Guy wrote: »
    Both those were technical submission victories in my book (and for betting purposes, they were submission victories for sure, as I had both the fighters in question to win by ko/tko and both were losing bets!). The Nog one is a little less clear cut as he did tap (too late unfortunately), but I think Herb Dean stopped the fight on the basis of the injury and hadn't even seen the tap.

    But if the official decision for the Mir/Nog fight was that Mir won by TKO then then why didn't you get paid? It's not up to Paddypower et al to make the decision as to whether it was a TKO or submission. They must abide by the official decision.

    Surely it is worth your time to ask the bookie in question for a copy of the official decision for the fight to see what they say.


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    #340
    alanrebelsw
    Registered Users Posts: 146 ✭✭alanrebelsw


    Got paid 3-1 Jones tko r2.. sweet


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    #341
    MonkeyBalls
    Registered Users Posts: 437 ✭✭MonkeyBalls


    The way Machida just dropped, I don't think I'll ever get that image out of my head...


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    #342
    p to the e
    Registered Users Posts: 2,313 ✭✭✭p to the e


    alanrebelsw wrote: »
    Got paid 3-1 Jones tko r2.. sweet

    Had an accumulator of Jones in round two, Ebersole for the win and Tito for the win. Another reason to hate "the peoples champ".

    I can't see Jones being beaten any time soon due to the fact that no only does he have unbelievable natural ability, he has such an huge physical advantage over any of his competitors. His height showed how he could easily pull off a standing guillotine.

    Machida is going to have quite the ladder to climb now. Maybe a Shogun Machida rubber match is on the cards


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    #343
    DeVore
    Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    loremolis wrote: »
    Am I reading the previous few pages correctly?

    I see that Mir won by TKO even though he submitted Big Nog and Nog didn't black out and Jones won by submission even though Machida was unconcious i.e. knocked out.

    It's making betting on these fights difficult to say the least.
    The UFC have no such concept as a "Technical Submission".

    Machida didnt submit because he never tapped.

    Both were stopped by the Ref and both should be considered covered by
    Knockout by:
    1.when Referee stops the contest (TKO)
    2.when an injury as a result of a legal maneuver is sever enough to terminate a bout (TKO)

    I cant understand why people have a difficulty understanding this. These are straight from the UFC rules :)


    DeV.


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    #344
    loremolis
    Registered Users Posts: 944 ✭✭✭loremolis


    DeVore wrote: »
    The UFC have no such concept as a "Technical Submission".

    Machida didnt submit because he never tapped.

    Both were stopped by the Ref and both should be considered covered by
    Knockout by:
    1.when Referee stops the contest (TKO)
    2.when an injury as a result of a legal maneuver is sever enough to terminate a bout (TKO)

    I cant understand why people have a difficulty understanding this. These are straight from the UFC rules :)


    DeV.

    I never suggested that there was a technical submission in either fight and I agree with you that both should have been called as TKO's.

    In fact, I realised earlier that I had bet on Mir to win by KO/TKO and that Paddypower didn't pay me because they have Mir winning by submission in their results section.

    I've sent them this link and suggested that they recognise the official decision as a TKO.

    http://www.sse.gov.on.ca/mcs/Documents/MMA/toronto_acc_11_12_10_results.pdf

    I just found it strange because if Jones had punched or even tapped Machida as he let him go it would probably have been called as a TKO instead of a submission and if Hern Dean noticed that Big Nog tapped just as his arm broke that fight would have been a submission instead of a TKO.


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    #345
    Fall_Guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 776 ✭✭✭Fall_Guy


    DeVore wrote: »
    The UFC have no such concept as a "Technical Submission".

    Machida didnt submit because he never tapped.

    Both were stopped by the Ref and both should be considered covered by
    Knockout by:
    1.when Referee stops the contest (TKO)
    2.when an injury as a result of a legal maneuver is sever enough to terminate a bout (TKO)

    I cant understand why people have a difficulty understanding this. These are straight from the UFC rules :)


    DeV.

    Its not a question of understanding, I think most understand exactly what you are saying. Its just that from a betting standpoint it has always been accepted that technical submission = a submission win. It is also the general understanding within the sport (for example, sherdog records will have the fight down as a technical submission loss for Machida, in the same way that Tim Sylvia's loss to Mir a few years ago is considered a technical submission)

    And as has been shown in the judges scorecards, even they have the decision down as a submission victory for jones rather than a TKO / KO.

    I understand the point that you are making based on the poor wording of the rules, but the general understanding and practice of how these finishes are ruled goes against that.


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    #346
    DeVore
    Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    Sorry loremolis, I was agreeing with you agreeing with me. The post was mostly for everyone else :)

    The rules arent poorly worded at all. They are, in fact, quite clear. It just seems like everyone bar the UFC doesnt follow them or doesnt understand them.

    I fail to see how you can say Machida "submitted" at all. He simply didnt. Everyone else in the entire world can say he did, but the UFC and I say he didnt. Oh and loremolis too. :);)

    DeV.


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    #347
    Mellor
    Registered Users Posts: 39,159 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Dev, I don't understand how you are having trouble understand it. Or maybe you're just holding firm in your position.

    There are no such thing as "UFC rules". The rules the UFC follow are the AC rules. The result of the match is determined by the commision. The simple fact is that the precedent is to judge this a submission.

    I see your point that the ref stopped the fight, ergo its a TKO. But that's wrong. The Ref has to stop every fight. Even when a fighter taps, its not over until the ref stops it. If the doctor says it shouldn't continue, its up to the ref to take that advice on board. It says so in the list of rules you posted.

    I don't know why you think the UFC call this a TKO. There are many example of when a fighter passed out, and the winner got sub of the night.

    Edit:
    I was looking for an example to post for my final point and I found a blog that had the same complaint.

    Paulo Thiago choked out Mick Swick. Swick never tapped. Thiago got sub of the night, and later was featured on sub of the week by the UFC.
    A blog writer had a similar stance to Devore. He didn't tap, its a TKO. He was peeved enough to email the NSAC regard this. He got a mail back from Keith Kiser. He said that swick didn't tap but that the officail result is a submission and recorded as such on www.mixedmartialarts.com (the official registry BTW). And that he was fine with that. He did agree that it didn't fit neatly into any category.

    So the ACs are aware that this situation doesn't "fit neatly" into the category descriptions. But they are happy to settle these as submission wins.


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    #348
    TherapyBoy
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 4,320 Mod ✭✭✭✭TherapyBoy


    I thought it was odd when Bruce Buffer said "winner by TKO" after the Jones/Machida fight but I guess there was no 'submission' by Machida. Never thought about it before, I just figured TKO was when the ref stepped in for strikes. Everyday is a school day.

    Can anyone tell me why they pour water on the canvas in their corner before the fight starts?

    Moderator: Non Drinkers Group & Grand Theft Auto



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    #349
    Sid_Justice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,720 ✭✭✭Sid_Justice


    DeVore wrote: »
    The UFC have no such concept as a "Technical Submission".

    Machida didnt submit because he never tapped.

    Both were stopped by the Ref and both should be considered covered by
    Knockout by:
    1.when Referee stops the contest (TKO)
    2.when an injury as a result of a legal maneuver is sever enough to terminate a bout (TKO)

    I cant understand why people have a difficulty understanding this. These are straight from the UFC rules :)


    DeV.

    The bout is always stopped by the referee. The fight isn't over when a guy taps or verbally submits, the fight is over when the referee stops the fight because a guy has signalled to stop the fight. All submissions end by referee stoppage. That's why you see guys choke people out, break stuff etc. they stop when the referee signals the fight to be at the end (also them being dicks). You don't stop a fight from a fighter point of few because you think the guy tapped, this leads to the awkward situation where there are denials, you stop when the referee tells you.


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    #350
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    loremolis wrote: »
    I never suggested that there was a technical submission in either fight and I agree with you that both should have been called as TKO's.

    In fact, I realised earlier that I had bet on Mir to win by KO/TKO and that Paddypower didn't pay me because they have Mir winning by submission in their results section.

    I've sent them this link and suggested that they recognise the official decision as a TKO.

    http://www.sse.gov.on.ca/mcs/Documents/MMA/toronto_acc_11_12_10_results.pdf

    I just found it strange because if Jones had punched or even tapped Machida as he let him go it would probably have been called as a TKO instead of a submission and if Hern Dean noticed that Big Nog tapped just as his arm broke that fight would have been a submission instead of a TKO.

    Can you let us know what Paddy Power say? Could do with the cash! ha


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    #351
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    TherapyBoy wrote: »
    I thought it was odd when Bruce Buffer said "winner by TKO" after the Jones/Machida fight but I guess there was no 'submission' by Machida. Never thought about it before, I just figured TKO was when the ref stepped in for strikes. Everyday is a school day.

    Can anyone tell me why they pour water on the canvas in their corner before the fight starts?

    It's usually so they know where their corner is to get direction the fighter can clearly hear.

    What was really wierd was that one prelim fight and his cornerman was pouring water down his shorts on to his crotch? Never seen that before.


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    #352
    cowzerp
    Registered Users Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    Ush1 wrote: »
    It's usually so they know where their corner is to get direction the fighter can clearly hear..

    that makes no sense, please explain.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



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    #353
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    cowzerp wrote: »
    that makes no sense, please explain.

    Well I'm not 100% sure on this, some people just do it to get any dirt off there feet.

    Just a couple of people have told me that when they are say in a clinch and looking down at the mat they can know that if they move towards the water patch that they will hear there cornermen better.

    Just what I've been told, could be waffle of course.


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    #354
    Jason McCabe
    Registered Users Posts: 826 ✭✭✭Jason McCabe


    Machida striking was obviously a bit better but he was striking before bones was born

    He can change range and that's what great about the guy.

    Did not like the way he dropped him like a bag of roosters when it was obvious he was out


    Bring on Anderson please. Dear please


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    #355
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,154 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    Great great card! Some really swesome fights!

    As far as the Main event goes, it went pretty much how i thought it would go! Machida being a challenge for Jones but Jones coming out on top. there is no doubt that he is the real deal! he has definitely cemented his position as the best LHW in the world!

    The 2 guys being touted as the only guys left to challenge him are Hendo (who is compaigning on Twitter) and Rashad and in fairness to the 2 lads, i don't think either of them will come close to Jones.

    I think it's way way to early to be talking about him fighting the likes of Silva. He hasn't even cleared out his division, there are still challengers. I think he can be the LHW champ for many many years to come!


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    #356
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,154 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Yeah it's a technical submission when the fighter goes unconscious.
    Trying to class that as a KO or TKO makes no sense, no matter what the rules say.

    Very unsportsmanlike to just drop him on the ground and walk off though.
    conor678 wrote: »
    Does anyone here think it was unsportsmanlike for Jones to 'drop' Machida to the floor after the ref jumped in? I see on MMA junkie on the Sunday Junkie people are giving him grief (http://mmajunkie.com/news/26504/the-sunday-junkie-dec-11-edition.mma). I thought he just let him go soon the ref jumped in, as I would thinking **** he's out!

    What's people thoughts on it? Is it valid or is it just more of the Jones hate out there?
    jayteecork wrote: »
    Especially after he admitted he knew Machida had gone to sleep and continued choking him.

    Just wanna chime in here and say that the criticism of Jones and being "Unsportsmanlike" is completely unwarrented.

    He choked him out and walked away, where's the big deal? Why no criticism for Mir after he crippled Nog? Or Jung after he stopped Hominick?

    It's silly to think that a fighter has any sort of duty to look after his opponent after each fight? In extreme cases yes, you will see a fighter do this like when there is an extremely vicious KO or if a fighter subs someone and is in a particular position to assist (IIRC Chris Weidman rubbing the chest of Tom Lawlor after he subbed him is an example) and when they do it's great.

    But what did you guys want Jones to do? Hold Machida's hand while he came around? machida wasn't really in any danger was he? He had been choked out and he came around, no big deal.

    This is the first time i've seen anyone here criticise a fighter for something like this and I feel it's no coincidence, IMO there's an element of Jones hate that comes with being the best and people looking for excuses to criticise the best, like what we see with detractors of GSP and Silva (although, the GSP criticism, while I completely disagree with it, is perectly valid).

    IMO, this is not BAD Sportsmanship. It's just not an example of perfect Sportsmanship, but certainly not bad Sportsmanship!
    I bet that forum members here will watch 100s of fights over the next year and not once will they criticise someone for the same thing Jones did on Saturday night.


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    #357
    Jason McCabe
    Registered Users Posts: 826 ✭✭✭Jason McCabe


    I'm a massive fan of bones. I think he could have put Machida down . He fell extremley awkwardly

    Mir I also think should have been a bit more worried about Nog.


    You must remember. Respect should be a major part of what martial arts is all about and something kids must be shown, especially by the big stars.

    It's an odd sport. During a match you want to tear holes in ur opponent but afterwards you hope they can walk away.


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    #358
    pauldoo
    Registered Users Posts: 635 ✭✭✭pauldoo


    i think the difference is nog had a choice he could tap before mir broke his arm, and he didnt, machida went to sleep(i know we could say he should have tapped before he went asleep) and jones knew hew was out, didnt tell the ref and just dropped him on his head.



    I really dont like jones, but sliva and gsp are 2 of my favourite fighters


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    #359
    Zero-Cool
    Registered Users Posts: 29,601 ✭✭✭✭Zero-Cool


    Agree with Paul. Nog should have tapped earlier. Mir was just trying to finish the fight and thats what he did. Bones knew Machida was asleep and he was still choking him, can't believe he even admitted that so casually. I didn't expect him to place Machida down, especially when a ref says it's over and wants you to let go of him but he should have made it clear to the ref that machida was out


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    #360
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,154 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    Respect is very important but I don't think it shows a lack of respect. The guy was in a fight with one of the best guys in the world. He is also the most hyped fighter on the planet at the moment! Sure he even apeared on Jay Leno before the Shogun fight.

    Perhaps it was relief that he'd won that he dropped him? I still don't think it shows lack of respect or unsportsmanlike behaviour.

    My point still stands that nobody else gets criticised for things like this. If Jones was an undercard fighter and did the same thing, this wouldn't be an issue!

    pauldoo wrote: »
    I really dont like jones, but sliva and gsp are 2 of my favourite fighters

    Me too. And the point I was trying to make by mentioning them was that there are people who will criticise them for every little thing.

    The "GSP id boring" criticism is the only one that stands up IMO. I disagree with it, but I 100% see where people are coming from when they say it.

    When it gets into the "Well if he was a real man he would've stood with his opponent and not took him down" territory is when it gets silly and people are criticising for non issues. I believe this Jones situation is a non-issue.


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    #361
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,154 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    sheehy83 wrote: »
    Agree with Paul. Nog should have tapped earlier. Mir was just trying to finish the fight and thats what he did. Bones knew Machida was asleep and he was still choking him, can't believe he even admitted that so casually. I didn't expect him to place Machida down, especially when a ref says it's over and wants you to let go of him but he should have made it clear to the ref that machida was out

    Is he the first fighter to do this?

    It might've been Weidman v Lawlor again, but there was a fight recently where the loser was choked unconcious and the fighter, although he appealed to the ref telling him he was out, didn't let go of the choke.

    The fighter SHOULDN'T have to let go of the choke, he should be waiting for the referee to stop the fight!


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