UFC 140 - Jones vs. Machida - 10th Dec. Spoilers inside

Roar

deffo a break, Helwani posted this on his twitter



That was a hard moment to watch.. And they showed it repeatedly!

Professey Chin

Gah! :eek:

Zero-Cool

Anyone know what the bonuses were? Whats with Brazillians and not tapping!

DeVore

DeVore wrote: »

Even the UFC itself seems not so clear:

from here: http://www.ufc.com/discover/sport/rules-and-regulations


Knockout by:
1.when Referee stops the contest (TKO)
2.when an injury as a result of a legal maneuver is sever enough to terminate a bout (TKO)
3.when contestant being rendered unconscious due strikes or kicks (KO)

Mellor and others, if this wasnt a "knock out" then can you please go to that link and tell me which "Result" applies to this fight.

The exhaustive list of possible outcomes is in Section 17. Here I'll tell you what, I'll make it easy. I'll quote the section, in full, below.

17. Types of Contest Results
Submission by:
Physical Tap Out
Verbal Tap Out

Knockout by:
when Referee stops the contest (TKO)
when an injury as a result of a legal maneuver is sever enough to terminate a bout (TKO)
when contestant being rendered unconscious due strikes or kicks (KO)

Decision via the scorecards, including:

Unanimous Decision - When all three judges score the contest for the same contestant

Split Decision - When two judges score the contest for one contestant and one judge scores for the opponent

Majority Decision - When two judges score the contest for the same contestant and one judge scores a draw

Draws, including:

Unanimous Draw - When all three judges score the contest a draw

Majority Draw - When two judges score the contest a draw

Split Draw - When all three judges score differently

Disqulification

Forfeit

Technical Draw

Technical Decision

No Decision

Now, ONE of those has to apply to this fight. Which one?

DeV.

Sid_Justice

The referee shall make it explicitly known to the fighters that severe injuries observed by the referee during the match due to a submission hold shall cause a stoppage to the match

Jon Jones defeated Machida by technical submission. It isn't, as you've shown, explicitly stated in the NAC 467.7968 Results of contests you've quoted.

However, it is my understanding that betting shops view technical submission equally to verbal and physical tap out.

If it was a legal matter and this document was the only document to go out, it certainly could be argued that "Knockout by: when Referee stops the contest (TKO)" fits the bill best.

DeVore

Thanks.

I didnt see Machida tap though, so can it be called a "submission"?

DeV.

Sid_Justice

He didn't tap, that's why it's not a submission by physical tap. It's called a technical submission when someone get's choked out or when a ref stops a fight before someone's arm gets broken. If Herb dean would have stepped in earlier, Frank Mir would have beaten Big Nog by technical submission. Because Nog tapped, it was submission by physical tap out.

So the fight is lost due to a submission hold but there was no actual submission (somebody communicating they submit). It's come up a couple of times on local mma events where guys have been caught (in referee's opinions) in arm bars. The guy in the arm bar doesn't tap because he still thinks he has an escape but the ref stops it before his arm pops. The guy on bottom usually gets up and waves his arms around in frustration saying he was in no danger. Anyway, some people take exception to the loss going down to submission by tapout as there was no tapout.

It really doesn't make any difference anywhere though. I remember someone somewhere (probably sherdog lol) making the point a tapout had to be at least 2 (or was it 3) consecutive taps to be counted as a yielding sign.

Having said all of this, the rules we're quoting are the nevada state athletic commissions unified mixed martial arts rules so not necessarily univerisally accepted.

Logical Fallacy

Ever notice it's always Herb in the cage when Frank is breaking arms?

Clear conspiracy.

jayteecork

Machida was winning the fight

Ah well he'll be back. He

cowzerp

sheehy83 wrote: »

Anyone know what the bonuses were? Whats with Brazillians and not tapping!

He did tap anyway, too late but he did.

Tubbs4

sheehy83 wrote: »

Anyone know what the bonuses were?

KO went to Zombie
sub went to Mir
fight went to bones.

Each get 75K

DeVore

I stand corrected, it was broken... thats some power in Mir's arms to do that!
Thankfully Nog is ok:



DeV.

Sid_Justice

cowzerp wrote: »

He did tap anyway, too late but he did.

We were talking about Machida getting choked out, brought the nog fight in at the end just a different example.

Sid_Justice

DeVore wrote: »

I stand corrected, it was broken... thats some power in Mir's arms to do that!
Thankfully Nog is ok:



DeV.

Some swanky UFC jet they got. Saw an x-ray on twitter didn't know if it was true or not

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/entry_photo_images/2442917/big_nog_broken_arm_medium_large.jpg

DeVore

Yes, Nog tapped, though it was either as, or after, it snapped and herb couldnt see it.

Machida didnt tap and the ref couldn't immediately see his right arm go limp.

Jones will be recorded under UFC rules (which are the only ones worth talking about) as having won by TKO under the Knocked Out paragraph of section 17.

Hopefully thats clarified things

DeV.

Fall_Guy

DeVore wrote: »

Yes, Nog tapped, though it was either as, or after, it snapped and herb couldnt see it.

Machida didnt tap and the ref couldn't immediately see his right arm go limp.

Jones will be recorded under UFC rules (which are the only ones worth talking about) as having won by TKO under the Knocked Out paragraph of section 17.

Hopefully thats clarified things

DeV.

Maybe so, but the bookies don't agree. I had jones to win by ko / tko and it was a losing bet. Also, the official scorecards show Jones as winner by submission.

http://mmaweekly.com/ufc-140-jones-vs-machida-the-scorecards?pid=3359

So I guess the issue is still about as clear as mud

Gorey_R

DeVore wrote: »

Yes, Nog tapped, though it was either as, or after, it snapped and herb couldnt see it.

Machida didnt tap and the ref couldn't immediately see his right arm go limp.

Jones will be recorded under UFC rules (which are the only ones worth talking about) as having won by TKO under the Knocked Out paragraph of section 17.

Hopefully thats clarified things

DeV.

They get classed as a technical submission

Yeah it's a technical submission when the fighter goes unconscious.
Trying to class that as a KO or TKO makes no sense, no matter what the rules say.

Very unsportsmanlike to just drop him on the ground and walk off though.

CageWager

For me it breaks down pretty simply.

Getting punched/kicked/elbowed etc= KO/TKO

Getting choked/joint locked= submission

Whether your unconscious/not intelligently defending yourself is the ref's call, this is where the technical part comes in.

You can argue on loopholes and technicalities in the rulebook wording but at the end of the day a choke is a choke. Every time a guy taps out the ref jumps in to stop the fight. Are we going to start calling guillotines and RNC's a TKO now??

empacher

got this off mmaweekly. this is how its being ruled in canada






i didn't be so its irrelevant for me


on a lesser note canadas schooling must be awfull they can't spell the submissions

Logical Fallacy

DeVore wrote: »

I stand corrected, it was broken... thats some power in Mir's arms to do that!

Pretty sure that is his 3rd arm snap.

Oh_Noes

empacher wrote: »

on a lesser note canadas schooling must be awfull they can't spell the submissions

Shocking stuff really, they obviously didn't read the book about Anne and Barry and the Kimura in their school.

RebelSoul

empacher wrote: »

got this off mmaweekly. this is how its being ruled in canada






i didn't be so its irrelevant for me


on a lesser note canadas schooling must be awfull they can't spell the submissions

Do you realise you spelt awful wrong?

jayteecork

Well we now know Bones is human.

He couldn't really get near Machida and his spinning back kicks looked ridic.

His standing guillotine was sick though.

Next up I think we'll have Shogun Machida 3 and Hendo for a shot.

empacher

yup i can't talk about my spelling, but official documents should be right

conor678

Does anyone here think it was unsportsmanlike for Jones to 'drop' Machida to the floor after the ref jumped in? I see on MMA junkie on the Sunday Junkie people are giving him grief (http://mmajunkie.com/news/26504/the-sunday-junkie-dec-11-edition.mma). I thought he just let him go soon the ref jumped in, as I would thinking **** he's out!

What's people thoughts on it? Is it valid or is it just more of the Jones hate out there?

jamesjoyce

Who actually thinks anyone has a chance against jones? he's beaten everyone who remotely could cause him problems. I think light hw is nearly cleared out. Does anyone really think that hendo or rashad even have a glimmer of hope. I don't even see that many competive fights for him at hw. The majority of hws are so slow. He would pick them a part on his feet with his reach and speed. I would make him fav against dos santos. A dream match up with Anderson silva is the only fight that could be trouble.

jayteecork

conor678 wrote: »

Does anyone here think it was unsportsmanlike for Jones to 'drop' Machida to the floor after the ref jumped in? I see on MMA junkie on the Sunday Junkie people are giving him grief (http://mmajunkie.com/news/26504/the-sunday-junkie-dec-11-edition.mma). I thought he just let him go soon the ref jumped in, as I would thinking **** he's out!

What's people thoughts on it? Is it valid or is it just more of the Jones hate out there?

Especially after he admitted he knew Machida had gone to sleep and continued choking him.

pauldoo

that was a great card, mir v nog was great, that finish and rolling was deadly.

I though machida was doin great against jones, jones said in the presser that he knew he was out, what a clown, if he knew he was out he should have stopped/told the ref and not drop on his head. Jones is unreal, he looks like hes beefef up a bit, awesome fighter, dont like his attitude though.

I think rashad is the best bet to beat him, he had some speed and knockout power, but an iffy chin, that will be great hypewise anyway.

Could be hendo next, big ask for hendo i think

conor678

jayteecork wrote: »

Especially after he admitted he knew Machida had gone to sleep and continued choking him.

Fair enough I didn't know that he said that. I suppose you've got to keep the choke on till the ref says it's over, much like the Chris Weidman fight (even though in fairness he was telling the ref Lawlor was out). However if he had let the choke go then Machida comes back round then gets the upper hand?

I know it's not the nicest thing to see but was just wondering what people opinions were?