UFC 140 - Jones vs. Machida - 10th Dec. Spoilers inside

p to the e

MrStuffins wrote: »

Is he the first fighter to do this?

It might've been Weidman v Lawlor again, but there was a fight recently where the loser was choked unconcious and the fighter, although he appealed to the ref telling him he was out, didn't let go of the choke.

The fighter SHOULDN'T have to let go of the choke, he should be waiting for the referee to stop the fight!

I think the problem was his left arm was stuck so from Big John's angle it looked as if he was still struggling to get out. It's when he notices his right arm (out of his view) that he stopped it. If Jones claims he knew he was out maybe he should have attempted to signal to the ref but as you say it is the referees responsibility.

Was watching an interview with Dana and he said how everyone booed Rampage out of the place when he first came to UFC and now he's a fan favourite so we shall see how time will judge Jones.

MrStuffins

p to the e wrote: »

I think the problem was his left arm was stuck so from Big John's angle it looked as if he was still struggling to get out. It's when he notices his right arm (out of his view) that he stopped it. If Jones claims he knew he was out maybe he should have attempted to signal to the ref but as you say it is the referees responsibility.

Was watching an interview with Dana and he said how everyone booed Rampage out of the place when he first came to UFC and now he's a fan favourite so we shall see how time will judge Jones.

And we see this now with Tito, Matt Hughes, etc.

Why is this? Because they are no longer the bad ass champions and they are the underdog type fighters! I'm not psychological expert (I know I know, "but MrStuffins, you are awesome at everything" you say, but not at everything. Just almost everything :pac:) but a lot of people don't want to cheer for the best guy.

I dunno if you follow/followed snooker but back in the day when Steve Davis was kicking ass, he was the single most universally disliked guy in sport. Because he was the best and beat everyone so badly that his matches were deemed "Boring" because they were so one-sided.

Nowadays he's probably the most popular guy in Snooker because he's no longer the best and is the loveable old-school rogue who plays for the love of the game.

I dunno if my analogy makes sense but I hope it does :P

Mr. Manager

MrStuffins wrote: »

Is he the first fighter to do this?

It might've been Weidman v Lawlor again, but there was a fight recently where the loser was choked unconcious and the fighter, although he appealed to the ref telling him he was out, didn't let go of the choke.

The fighter SHOULDN'T have to let go of the choke, he should be waiting for the referee to stop the fight!

I don't think people are necessarily giving out about continuing to hold the choke despite him being out but more in the manner in which he dropped him. I'm a fan of both and just thought it was a bit uncalled for to drop Machida on his face like that. Although, in the heat of it all and Big John telling you to let go your first instinct is to do just that and not think, "hey this guy is asleep on his feet, hope doesn't hit his head on the way down"

johnny_adidas

i actually think he was so relieved he won, he just walked away in a type of 'phew' moment. I watched the finish a few times yesterday morning, marveling at the choke and noticed he had a weird look on his face when he approached his corner just after the submission. Very quiet, underwhelmed at taking machida out
At first i thought it was the strut of one of the toughest guys on the planet, but no, looked like he was experiencing a moment of dented confidence. to me he comes across as a guy who has a big fear of losing and at that moment he realised he overcame one of his toughest opponents so far.
but hey, what do i know

MrStuffins

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

I don't think people are necessarily giving out about continuing to hold the choke despite him being out but more in the manner in which he dropped him. I'm a fan of both and just thought it was a bit uncalled for to drop Machida on his face like that. Although, in the heat of it all and Big John telling you to let go your first instinct is to do just that and not think, "hey this guy is asleep on his feet, hope doesn't hit his head on the way down"

True but this particular post was in reply to a person who said:

sheehy83 wrote: »

Jones knew Machida was asleep and he was still choking him, can't believe he even admitted that so casually.

MrStuffins

johnny_adidas wrote: »

i actually think he was so relieved he won, he just walked away in a type of 'phew' moment. I watched the finish a few times yesterday morning, marveling at the choke and noticed he had a weird look on his face when he approached his corner just after the submission. Very quiet, underwhelmed at taking machida out
At first i thought it was the strut of one of the toughest guys on the planet, but no, looked like he was experiencing a moment of dented confidence. to me he comes across as a guy who has a big fear of losing and at that moment he realised he overcame one of his toughest opponents so far.
but hey, what do i know

I completely agree with this.

Zero-Cool

MrStuffins wrote: »

True but this particular post was in reply to a person who said:

Jayus no way should he have just leg go when he was asleep. What I was getting at was he should have told big John he was asleep so John could maybe go to the other side to check. You shouldn't leave go of a sub until the ref stops it but if the ref is at a bad angle and you know the guy is asleep, you should be telling the ref to check him. Not his job of course but choking a guy you know is asleep is a bit crap man.

MrStuffins

sheehy83 wrote: »

Jayus no way should he have just leg go when he was asleep. What I was getting at was he should have told big John he was asleep so John could maybe go to the other side to check. You shouldn't leave go of a sub until the ref stops it but if the ref is at a bad angle and you know the guy is asleep, you should be telling the ref to check him. Not his job of course but choking a guy you know is asleep is a bit crap man.

It's not the fighter's job to know where the referee is positioned or to presume that the referee is at a bad angle. it is the job of the ref to ensure he knows the fighter is still concious and the referee in question happened to be the most experienced of referees.

It's Jon Jones' job to render his opponent unable to continue and wait for the referee to stop the fight. That is exactly what he did.

Clive

When you apply a submission, you should keep it until the referee stops the match. It's their job to ref, yours to fight. However you should disengage safely from the submission also. You don't just stand up from an omoplata, nor should you just drop an unconscious person. you release the choke and support their weight for the two seconds it would take the referee to take them into their care.

Ush1

Clive wrote: »

When you apply a submission, you should keep it until the referee stops the match. It's their job to ref, yours to fight. However you should disengage safely from the submission also. You don't just stand up from an omoplata, nor should you just drop an unconscious person. you release the choke and support their weight for the two seconds it would take the referee to take them into their care.

Good point, if you were to carelessly disengage from an omoplata you could probably be sanctioned.

Machida could have fell awkwardly on his arm or anything.

MrStuffins

Ush1 wrote: »

Good point, if you were to carelessly disengage from an omoplata you could probably be sanctioned.

Machida could have fell awkwardly on his arm or anything.

At the end of the day though, Jones is under no obligation to hold Machida up.

Machida should tap before going unconcious and if he doesn't, the ref is there to protetct him. But Jones doesnt have to hold him up.

Ush1

MrStuffins wrote: »

At the end of the day though, Jones is under no obligation to hold Machida up.

Machida should tap before going unconcious and if he doesn't, the ref is there to protetct him. But Jones doesnt have to hold him up.

I know he is under no obligation, but perhaps he should be, or shouldn't need to be.

Maybe Machida didn't have time, can choke someone out very quickly and he also was probably messed up from the punch that dropped him just before. But it's not as big an issue to me as it is to some others, just looked bad on TV if any casual fans were watching.

MrStuffins

Ush1 wrote: »

I know he is under no obligation, but perhaps he should be, or shouldn't need to be.

Maybe Machida didn't have time, can choke someone out very quickly and he also was probably messed up from the punch that dropped him just before. But it's not as big an issue to me as it is to some others, just looked bad on TV if any casual fans were watching.

I watched it and I never thought of it as bad sportsmanship at all. Never even thought about it until I read some people say it here.

Again, I can see how some might think it's bad sportsmanship but I think it's not an example of bad sportsmanship, it's just an example of not going out of your way to be overly sportsmanlike. And I think fighters shouldn't be expected to be overly sportmanlike all of the time.

Being overly sportsmanlike should be appreciated but not expected!

dave1982

dave1982

MrStuffins wrote: »

I watched it and I never thought of it as bad sportsmanship at all. Never even thought about it until I read some people say it here.

Again, I can see how some might think it's bad sportsmanship but I think it's not an example of bad sportsmanship, it's just an example of not going out of your way to be overly sportsmanlike. And I think fighters shouldn't be expected to be overly sportmanlike all of the time.

Being overly sportsmanlike should be appreciated but not expected!

How many fighters have told the ref "he's out" while trying to submit someone.

Refs can miss stuff

Jone's had him up in that position you can feel someone going limp, Jones should have told the ref he's out.He admitted to Rogan after that he knew he was out.

I think sportmanship should be expected, Guys spend 3 months preparing for each other pre fight, least a guy can do is show respect after the fight.

Jones dropped Machida like he was **** and strolled off, only checking on him after being told to.



Saying that Mir left Nog on the floor knowing he had broken arm.


My issue would be not letting the ref know he's out.

MrStuffins

dave1982 wrote: »

How many fighters have told the ref "he's out" while trying to submit someone.

Refs can miss stuff

I know this. I've addressed it already.

Jone's had him up in that position you can feel someone going limp, Jones should have told the ref he's out.He admitted to Rogan after that he knew he was out.

no he shouldn't. He shouldn't have to. It's not the fighters job to tell the ref anything, it's the ref's job to make sure the fighter is able to fight on.

I think sportmanship should be expected, Guys spend 3 months preparing for each other pre fight, least a guy can do is show respect after the fight.

I agree with you. But sportsmanship and respect are 2 completely different things so I can't really reply to this point properly.

Jones dropped Machida like he was **** and strolled off, only checking on him after being told to.

So? What was he checking for? did he think he was dead? he was unconcious from a choke. he knew exactly machida's position. As did you i'm guessing. Would I be right in thinking that when you watched theend of the fight you didn't think "Oh, Machida looks like he's in real trouble here. I wonder is he ok? I wonder is his life in any danger?"

Like f*ck you did. you thought "Machida is out, he'll be concious again in 10 seconds and he'll be 100% in a few minutes.

Saying that Mir left Nog on the floor knowing he had broken arm

Indeed, which goes back to my point about this being just an excuse for people to complain about Jon Jones and not as an isolated incident of unsportsmanlike conduct. Nobody mentioned Mir at all! And I never see anyone mention things like this on here from any fights.

My issue would be not letting the ref know he's out.

That's not his job. It's the referee's job to recognise when a fighter isn't out. If the ref "missed" this then it is not a failing on the fighter's part but a failing on the part of the referee and his poor positioning!

dave1982

How long should a fighter hold a choke after they can feel other fighter is out?

10 seconds? 2 minutes, 4 minutes?

What if the ref misses it completely?

A fighter could get seriously injured unnecessarily, i don't think guys fight each other to end careers.

I think holding chokes too long is dangerous and unnecessary,these guys are trained in this and know exactly when some one is out.

Although i agree the refs job is to protect the fighter but accidents happen, it don't take much to say he's out, and let the ref decide from there.

I don't mean say he's out and let go btw,tell the ref and let him tell you stop

Cherry_Cola

I can see how people might think it's bad that Jones didn't go to check on him but realistically why get in the way of trained medical personnel to check on someone. It's best to just let them do their job just as you've just done yours.

MrStuffins

dave1982 wrote: »

How long should a fighter hold a choke after they can feel other fighter is out?

Bit of a loaded question but the answer for me would be that they should hold any submission until the referee stops the fight.

What if the ref misses it completely?

Then I would imagine the referee will face disciplinery charges? I'm not sure what the procedure is.

A fighter could get seriously injured unnecessarily, i don't think guys fight each other to end careers.

No, they don't. Which is why strong refereeing is needed.

I think holding chokes too long is dangerous and unnecessary,these guys are trained in this and know exactly when some one is out.

You're right. And the fight is only over when the referee stops the fight. Jones did nothing wrong in this respect.

You do you think Chris Weidmann should be criticised for holding onto the choke of Tom Lawlor even though he knew Lawlor was out and the referee hadn't seen it? Do you think it makes it ok to hold the choke just because he told the referee Lawlor was out?

Although i agree the refs job is to protect the fighter but accidents happen, it don't take much to say he's out, and let the ref decide from there.

Well considering the ref was John McCarthy, maybe Jones didn't think he'd need to tell such an experienced guy how to do his job?

I don't mean say he's out and let go btw,tell the ref and let him tell you stop

So which is it? Do you want fighters to let go when they feel their opponent is out? Or do they wait til the ref steps in?

Again, it is NOT the job of the fighter to tell the ref anything. That's what the referee is there for! That's the point of a referee!

dave1982

i mean say he's out if you think the ref has missed it.

MrStuffins

dave1982 wrote: »

i mean say he's out if you think the ref has missed it.

I think the fighters have their own jobs to be worrying about without doing the ref's jobs for them!

scudzilla

Hmmmmm, true colours shining through here maybe???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4JARf8nCpE

evil_seed

scudzilla wrote: »

Hmmmmm, true colours shining through here maybe???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4JARf8nCpE

"Go get some fans"

scudzilla

evil_seed wrote: »

"Go get some fans"

Yeah, exactly, more spin from the Jackson camp!!

Fall_Guy

evil_seed wrote: »

"Go get some fans"

i would guess that jackson is aware that Jones is a bit of a selfish, cocky git. But he seems like a hell of a people-person so he probably also thought it was wiser to use positive language rather than negative language when trying to get his fighter to show some respect for his opponent. "Go check on Lyoto, go get some fans!" probably translates to "stop being an asshole and show some respect" but is likely to get a much better reaction from Jones.

feelpablo

thought he said "against the fence"???

DeVore

Cherry_Cola wrote: »

I can see how people might think it's bad that Jones didn't go to check on him but realistically why get in the way of trained medical personnel to check on someone. It's best to just let them do their job just as you've just done yours.

You can at least show you give a crap..... Jones is amazing but I wont be cheering for him any time soon. Did he break the rules? No, but you know what..... I dont want to cheer for him and thats my choice.

DeV.

dave1982

MrStuffins wrote: »

I think the fighters have their own jobs to be worrying about without doing the ref's jobs for them!

Its also his job not to kill some one,MMA is not fight to death unless the ref stops you.

Which is the impression you're giving.

I want to see fighters healthy and able to fight again.

The way you're coming across is, its the refs fault if someone dies or is seriously injured brain damage etc.


Professional fighters should know, when enough is enough if not its not a sport anymore.

Clive

MrStuffins wrote: »

Indeed, which goes back to my point about this being just an excuse for people to complain about Jon Jones and not as an isolated incident of unsportsmanlike conduct. Nobody mentioned Mir at all! And I never see anyone mention things like this on here from any fights.

I have to agree with you here MrStuffins, some people are just looking for a stick to beat Jones with - there's a load of nonsense floating around about unfair reach, he's a heavyweight, "cheap" elbows etc.

I'll lay my cards on the table - I don't like Jones. I don't like Machida either. I don't like Mir. Nog is one of my MMA heroes. However, I have no problem with what happened between Mir and Nog. Mir disengaged and left Nog in a stable position - the damage was done. Jones, however dropped an unconscious person with no regard to their safety. I have no issue with him walking off or with choking him out until stopped, he just could have waited a second or two until Machida was in the care of the referee before sauntering off.

Did he have to support him? No.
If someone faints on you on a crowded bus do you have to support them? No.

Either way I think a grown man should know that sometimes you should do more than what you "have to" out of common decency.

MrStuffins

dave1982 wrote: »

Its also his job not to kill some one,MMA is not fight to death unless the ref stops you.

Which is the impression you're giving.

I want to see fighters healthy and able to fight again.

The way you're coming across is, its the refs fault if someone dies or is seriously injured brain damage etc.


Professional fighters should know, when enough is enough if not its not a sport anymore.

Come on Dave, you're better than this. You know full well I am NOT saying anything about death in the ring!

I thought we were having a good debate until you spewed this crap! Don't be so silly!