UFC 140 - Jones vs. Machida - 10th Dec. Spoilers inside

Denners.ie

To conclude tonight's event it is clear that Jones is a ****ing animal who has it all. How can you beat this guy? He is like i-robot ffs.

DeVore

Cool it Denners, thx.

<edit>re: the tripe and gash comments. You can make your points without them.

DeV.

Sid_Justice

Big Dev walking around like he owns the place

stealinhorses

From Ariel Helwani's Twitter:

"For the record, two judges gave the first round to Jon Jones. The judges were Bertrand and Blatnick. D'Amato gave it to Machida."

You can't even outscore the guy, how do you beat him?

Denners.ie

DeVore wrote: »

Cool it Denners, thx.

<edit>re: the tripe and gash comments. You can make your points without them.

DeV.

Fair enough.

Pappa you can make me look like a bigger fool tonight if you post a screenshot. You aren't required to post anything but I have genuinely never seen an in-running bet like that on MMA.

Please inform me/us where you do these so we can avail of such oppurtunities next time. Thanks.

Insect Overlord

Denners.ie wrote: »

Personally, and categorically, you are 100% wrong. You cannot be knocked out from a submissive manoeuvre, the hint is in the name ffs.

What does S&M have to do with anything? :pac:

Seriously though, the point of choking and strangling techniques is to render your opponent unconscious. In a sports scenario you're expecting them to tap first, but that won't always happen. They can put you to sleep in under 10 seconds, easily.

Most submission-techniques work the joints. Wrist-locks, arm-bars, leg-locks, etc. They'll cause a break/dislocation eventually, but won't knock you out. That's where the confusion is arising. The only way to find out for sure is to check the UFC rule-book.

Arawn

The Clown Man wrote: »

Holy Sh*t! I realise that kind of guillotine has probably been done before but I'm not sure that Jones himself had done it - it looked almost ad lib!

Did someone call this guy a chancer on this board? Jones is a pure natural plain and simple. That was opportunistic positioning at it's very finest.

Also, I'm actually so fking delighted for Mir!

He had his HW title taken from him by what was basically bad luck with his motorbike accident. After that he was just not the same Frank Mir. Then he starts coming back into things but not doing what made him the champ - submissions - he was boxing his way back in, the bloody fool! Meanwhile, I've been screaming at the TV to go back to what he's good at and every time he pulls off a KO making me STFU and admire the amazing progression that he's somehow pulling off.

Remember this guy is one of the old school fighters and he's progressed like no other of the old ilk. He was pure submissions and little else when he was HW champ.

And when he (eventually and with no other choice but to break his arm) submits Big Nog, going back to the old Frank Mir, I'm jumping around the place screaming again, but this time in delight! I know he comes across as arrogant, I don't think he actually is - it's just his manner - but one way or another, he's about the most unpredictable and frustrating fighter out there which makes me a pure fan!

Delighted for him!

tbh If you fight you need to be arrogant, you need to believe you can beat anyone in the cage otherwise you've no business being there.


On the ko/ submission thing


Didn't Jeff monson and Shane carwin have ko wins from choke outs??

Monson vs hinkle i think it was??

DeVore

The only way Jones looks like he will be beaten is by a lucky punch (I hate those kinda wins) or by inexperience on the ground (he's only been training 4 years, surely his ground game cant be all that complete)... but I dont want to sound like I *want* him to get beat, he's awesome.

DeV.

Arawn

DeVore wrote: »

The only way Jones looks like he will be beaten is by a lucky punch (I hate those kinda wins) or by inexperience on the ground (he's only been training 4 years, surely his ground game cant be all that complete)... but I dont want to sound like I *want* him to get beat, he's awesome.

DeV.

To quote something I once read (from Barry Ogelsby I believe) and somethingI firmly believe. "There's no such thing as a lucky punch" if he throws a punch and it lands it did exactly as intended

Sid_Justice

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Most submission-techniques work the joints.

Are you saying chokes and strangles aren't submission techniques. You're really digging there.

DeVore wrote: »

(he's only been training 4 years, surely his ground game cant be all that complete)... but I dont want to sound like I *want* him to get beat, he's awesome.

Only training in a MMA gym 4 years. He's wrestled for ever and was very successful.

DeVore

Denners.ie wrote: »

Fair enough.

Pappa you can make me look like a bigger fool tonight if you post a screenshot. You aren't required to post anything but I have genuinely never seen an in-running bet like that on MMA.

Please inform me/us where you do these so we can avail of such oppurtunities next time. Thanks.

I know Pappa personally, I seriously doubt he is lying. Plus, if you are specifying a specific win-type in a specific round, 4-1 isnt all that great odds

DeV.

Denners.ie

You cannot be knocked unconscious from a submissive manoeuvre, to be knocked unconscious a blow needs to be struck that renders you unconscious. It isn't really confusing tbh.

DeVore

Arawn wrote: »

To quote something I once read (from Barry Ogelsby I believe) and somethingI firmly believe. "There's no such thing as a lucky punch" if he throws a punch and it lands it did exactly as intended

Fair enough, but you know what I mean. A fight which, if fought 10 times Fighter A wins 9 times and loses to a single punch once.

DeV.

Sid_Justice

Arawn wrote: »

To quote something I once read (from Barry Ogelsby I believe) and somethingI firmly believe. "There's no such thing as a lucky punch" if he throws a punch and it lands it did exactly as intended

When people say lucky they mean what would be the probability be that the punch will land and will the probability be that it will cause a TKO. No body is saying it's intentional. I could throw a dart at a dart board, aim for the bull and miss 50 times and get it the 51st. It's still a lucky throw even if I've done exactly what I've aiming to do.

If the strike isn't extremely repeatable it goes down as a lucky in by book. Hendo was aiming to hit Fedor in the jaw but if he would have done that 50 times only 1 would have landed the way it did and floor him from that position.

Just my opinion.

If the strikes isn't intentional it's even more lucky. I didn't see the reply but it looks like Machida hurt himself bouncing his head off Jones' elbow in the clinch just there before he went in. Hardly intention and therefore lucky.

Denners.ie

DeVore wrote: »

I know Pappa personally, I seriously doubt he is lying. Plus, if you are specifying a specific win-type in a specific round, 4-1 isnt all that great odds

DeV.

I am not specifying anything, I am generally curious as to where he did this bet. I would like to avail of such opportunities in future as I'm sure others would aswell.

Arawn

DeVore wrote: »

Fair enough, but you know what I mean. A fight which, if fought 10 times Fighter A wins 9 times and loses to a single punch once.

DeV.

aye I know it's just a term that annoys me. I agree the only way he'll be beat is if he's caught or has a freak accident like yer man that ko'd himself slamming/suplexing his opponent

Insect Overlord

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Are you saying chokes and strangles aren't submission techniques. You're really digging there.

Selective quoting, eh? You're nothing if not consistent, Sid.

To re-iterate:

In a sports scenario you're expecting them to tap first, but that won't always happen.

Most submission-techniques work the joints.

Chokes and strangles are designed to render someone unconscious. Leave them on long enough and they'll kill you too.

99% of the time they'll tap first, or "submit" if you will, giving up while they still have the choice. Machida never tapped out though.

The Clown Man

DeVore wrote: »

The only way Jones looks like he will be beaten is by a lucky punch (I hate those kinda wins) or by inexperience on the ground (he's only been training 4 years, surely his ground game cant be all that complete)... but I dont want to sound like I *want* him to get beat, he's awesome.

DeV.

A la Matt Serra!

His power combined with his frankly ridiculous wrestling though will mean that taking him down is an almost impossible objective.

Maybe if Daniel Cormier lays off the pies for a bit and drops to LHW we could have ourselves a fight! :P

DeVore

Denners.ie wrote: »

You cannot be knocked unconscious from a submissive manoeuvre, to be knocked unconscious a blow needs to be struck that renders you unconscious. It isn't really confusing tbh.

Even the UFC itself seems not so clear:

from here: http://www.ufc.com/discover/sport/rules-and-regulations


Knockout by:
1.when Referee stops the contest (TKO)
2.when an injury as a result of a legal maneuver is sever enough to terminate a bout (TKO)
3.when contestant being rendered unconscious due strikes or kicks (KO)

Oh_Noes

I think Jones has already beaten everyone who had a chance of beating him in Shogun, Machida and Rampage. I don't think the rest of the division does any better.

We're just going to have to sit around and wait for Jones 2.0 to come along. And he will eventually.

I want to see him fight Anderson Silva.

Denners.ie

DeVore wrote: »

3.when contestant being rendered unconscious due strikes or kicks (KO)

There you have it.

DeVore

Denners.ie wrote: »

There you have it.

Did you skip 1?

DeV.

DeVore

In fact Denners ... here are the *exhaustive* list of the possible outcomes of a fight. Can you please point out the one which applies to this fight?
Cos Machida didnt tap so I only see "Knocked Out by" as the only other applicable category.

Unless you are seeing something I'm not.


17. Types of Contest Results
Submission by:
Physical Tap Out
Verbal Tap Out

Knockout by:
when Referee stops the contest (TKO)
when an injury as a result of a legal maneuver is sever enough to terminate a bout (TKO)
when contestant being rendered unconscious due strikes or kicks (KO)

Decision via the scorecards, including:

Unanimous Decision - When all three judges score the contest for the same contestant

Split Decision - When two judges score the contest for one contestant and one judge scores for the opponent

Majority Decision - When two judges score the contest for the same contestant and one judge scores a draw

Draws, including:

Unanimous Draw - When all three judges score the contest a draw

Majority Draw - When two judges score the contest a draw

Split Draw - When all three judges score differently

Disqulification

Forfeit

Technical Draw

Technical Decision

No Decision

Denners.ie

DeVore wrote: »

Did you skip 1?

DeV.

A TKO means when the opponent is conscious but the ref stops it.

An opponent is not unconscious when it is a technical knockout. Did you miss "(TKO)"?

DeVore

You put it best yourself mate.... the hint is in the name. In the "knocked out" section. And you didnt answer my question.... Its a technical knock out. That means he's technically correct, which as we all know, it the best kind of correct.


I'll leave it there...

DeV.

Sid_Justice

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Chokes and strangles are designed to render someone unconscious. Leave them on long enough and they'll kill you too.

99% of the time they'll tap first, or "submit" if you will, giving up while they still have the choice. Machida never tapped out though.

You're just digging. If Frank Mir kept that kimura un long enough Big Nog would have passed out too. If he left it on long enough and ripped his arm off he'd probably die too. You're trying to make a distinction between a strangle and an armlock and it's just plain ridiculous.

if you're only doing this for a bit of sport debate fair enough, I just thought you were misinformed so i corrected you.

empacher

Just watched home from work and fights watched. thought machida was on his way to a decision or possibly dropping jones, seemed like jones was getting scared for a bit.
Boy when he smells blood he you can sense his demeanor changing.

Disappointed in big nog think he jumped into that submission just to prove he was a better BJJ practitioner. lil nog wasn't lying in the countdown when he said body shots. never going to be a lhw champ, But he is nearly breaking top 7. good fights

Mellor

DeV and everyone else, I understand your point. That Machida never submitted. The ref stopped it.
But arguing that this was a TKO is wrong. It's pretty well established that a passing out due to a choke hold is a submission victory. The defacto is pretty clear.

Submitting due to strikes is a grey area with bets a standing choke us a sub.

themandan6611

its not a ko / tko - so says my betfair account

seadnamac

As someone who has a steel plate and eight screws in my arm from breaking my humerus bone (upper arm) on two different occasions, that was a definitely a break, not a dislocation. Hard to f*cking watch too.

Also, Jon Jones is incredible.