Donedeal and the likes

Discodog · 19-11-2011 9:56pm

andreac wrote: »

Discodog, i have to disagree with you regarding the clubs. Most of the breed clubs set up have their own set of rules and guidelines separate from the IKC in relation to breeding and are a lot stricter with their members regarding the rules etc.

Most of them have strict rules that you have to health test your dogs to be allowed into the club and they insist of health checking and testing dogs before they are allowed to be bred and encourage all people coming into the breed to do so.

But who sets the Breed Standard ? In theory the Peek that has to sit on ice would be classed as healthy. Same with a slope back GSD. Even genetic screening does not mean that the dog will suffer as a result of the breed standard - Sharpeis spring to mind.

laoch na mona · 19-11-2011 9:59pm

Discodog wrote: »

Breed Standard.

who cares about breed standard unless your buying a show dog
donedeal is okay you can tell if its a puppy farmer when you pick the dog up

Cherry Blossom · 19-11-2011 10:03pm

The fact remains that the most reliable sources of an ethical, responsible breeder are found within the showing fraternity. The history of their dogs is well documented and can be found easier than breeders from any other any other source with a bit of digging. There will always be exceptions in any discussion where sources are classified in this way. There are plenty of ethical sources amongst working dog breeders too but its important to remember that these are not usually suitable for 'average' pet homes when you take into account that factors such as prey-drive, energy levels and stamina may play big parts in breeding these types of dogs. It does irritate me that people are often unwilling to accept that the same variations of ethics are also present within the rescue group, as a person who has looked into a breed rescue in the UK to find that their practices are questionable enough for the breed clubs to publicly state on their sites that they have no connection with the breed rescue.

andreac · 19-11-2011 10:06pm

Discodog wrote: »

But who sets the Breed Standard ? In theory the Peek that has to sit on ice would be classed as healthy. Same with a slope back GSD. Even genetic screening does not mean that the dog will suffer as a result of the breed standard - Sharpeis spring to mind.

Breed standard is very different to health testing. Breed standards makes one breed differ from another and its the kennel club who decide this.
What im talking about is health testing for things such as Hip Dysplacia, heart testing, eye testing etc. IKC dont care about any of these, but most breed club insist on all these tests being carried out before breeding if you want to be a member of a club.

Regarding the Peke, have you ever been to a dog show thats indoors and under lights?? My rotties who are very healthy dogs, suffer from the heat and can get very panty so i have to be extremely careful with them.

In that big arena the lights and everything would create a very warm environment for a dog with a big wooly coat so i wouldnt necessarily put it down to the dog being unhealthy.

Wibbs · 19-11-2011 10:21pm

Discodog wrote: »

I can remember seeing it but here's a link - great link title

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1046614/BBC-drop-Crufts-unhealthy-freak-breeds.html

yea, typical Daily Fail. I remember the BBC doc they reference. Well dodgy footage and some of the breeders were utterly oblivious and didn't give a feck it seems. IMHO someone who isn't a puppy farmer with two family pets that have pups, especially mongrels who end up selling them on donedeal or whatever are far ahead morally to some of these "mutant" breeds and their breeders. Again IMHO they're not far off "puppy farmers" themselves.

That article/documentary was in '08, do you know if crufts and the KC in the UK actually changed anything or is it the same guff going on?

andreac wrote:

Discodog, i have to disagree with you regarding the clubs. Most of the breed clubs set up have their own set of rules and guidelines separate from the IKC in relation to breeding and are a lot stricter with their members regarding the rules etc.

Most of them have strict rules that you have to health test your dogs to be allowed into the club and they insist of health checking and testing dogs before they are allowed to be bred and encourage all people coming into the breed to do so.

OK but is this health testing actually doing much? Do the dogs involved look less extreme? Do they actually reduce the genetic damage? EG Would the best of breed Irish bred "british bulldog" have bang on hip scores? At least below 10? Are their king Charles' majority free of heart problems and skull/brain size issues? Or as seems to be the case these issues are "acceptable" to a certain point, but not eradicated?

adrenalinjunkie wrote:

The fact remains that the most reliable sources of an ethical, responsible breeder are found within the showing fraternity

OK if we get off the "rescue/donedeal/breeder" debate for a sec, how is going from this;

http://www.english-bulldog-nation.com/images/oldenglish.jpg

To this with all it's attendant problems;

"ethical" and "responsible"? And it's not the only breed. Not by a long shot.

Wibbs · 19-11-2011 10:31pm

andreac wrote: »

In that big arena the lights and everything would create a very warm environment for a dog with a big wooly coat so i wouldnt necessarily put it down to the dog being unhealthy

Well what about the Peke's issues with back problems? Breathing Problems because of their extreme brachycephalic heads? They can barely move about without snorting, which also causes heatstroke because the poor little buggers can't get enough air in and out. Their prevalence of congestive heart failure doesn't help. Whelping can be problematic because of their oversized heads. Their protruding eyes can be an issue, with damage and other eye problems, even to the point of their eyes popping out of their too small eye sockets. That's not a breed list that's a list of deformities. Deformities the breeders are only happy to keep producing. To avoid such issues they'd have to rejig the standard and start breeding Pekes with longer snouts, longer legs and slightly bigger overall.

andreac · 19-11-2011 10:41pm

Im not saying it def wasnt unhealthy but the conditions could have been a contributing factor that day.

I do agree that some breeds are in a bad way and something needs to be done about it. Afaik the KC in the UK have stepped in to try and improve some of the breeds that are suffering by changing the breed standards.

Cherry Blossom · 19-11-2011 10:42pm

Wibbs wrote: »

OK but is this health testing actually doing much? Do the dogs involved look less extreme? Do they actually reduce the genetic damage? EG Would the best of breed Irish bred "british bulldog" have bang on hip scores? At least below 10? Are their king Charles' majority free of heart problems and skull/brain size issues? Or as seems to be the case these issues are "acceptable" to a certain point, but not eradicated?

Personally I wouldn't buy a dog from a breeder of a breed that can be completely free of a particular genetic issue, but considers terms like 'carrier' or 'minimised risk' acceptable as I believe a huge part of their responsibility is to ensure that these issues cant be passed on, contract or no contract - they can never be 100% sure that these dogs wont be bred from once they leave their possession eg. Von Willebrands disease or certain eye problems. In saying that though - would these dogs be 'wasted' being owned by me - a person who never intends to breed from them?

Wibbs wrote: »

OK if we get off the "rescue/donedeal/breeder" debate for a sec, how is going from this;

. . . pic . . .

To this with all it's attendant problems;

"ethical" and "responsible"? And it's not the only breed. Not by a long shot.

Can't really answer you on that one as I'm not at all educated in bull-breeds, I have a personal preference for working breeds that have changed little appearance-wise since the days when they were bred 'for purpose' so I suppose from this you can take that I agree with you although perhaps I didn't know it!

GT_TDI_150 · 19-11-2011 10:58pm

Ok, so regardless of where one ends up looking for a pup, what are the questions you would want to ask to try and satisfy you are not dealing with a puppy farmer, and that the mother and pup have been treated as should

Wibbs · 19-11-2011 10:59pm

andreac wrote: »

I do agree that some breeds are in a bad way and something needs to be done about it. Afaik the KC in the UK have stepped in to try and improve some of the breeds that are suffering by changing the breed standards.

Sadly I can see resistance. The buying public and the breeders are conditioned to many breeds and how "they should look". A Bulldog with a snout or a bigger peke may well be a hard sell nowadays.

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Personally I wouldn't buy a dog from a breeder of a breed that can be completely free of a particular genetic issue, but considers terms like 'carrier' or 'minimised risk' acceptable as I believe a huge part of their responsibility is to ensure that these issues cant be passed on, contract or no contract - they can never be 100% sure that these dogs wont be bred from once they leave their possession eg. Von Willebrands disease or certain eye problems. In saying that though - would these dogs be 'wasted' being owned by me - a person who never intends to breed from them?

True enough. I suppose neutering such carriers might be a compromise. Then again neutering, especially at too early an age can bring it's own health issues that may be blamed on breed genetics(skeletal issues for one, and certain cancers for another).

Can't really answer you on that one as I'm not at all educated in bull-breeds, I have a personal preference for working breeds that have changed little appearance-wise since the days when they were bred 'for purpose' so I suppose from this you can take that I agree with you although perhaps I didn't know it!

There is that and certainly the working breeds seem to less problematic compared to the "toy" breeds. Then again you have genetic issues with pretty much all breeds. Hip dysplasia seems endemic across many breeds, working included, yet wild canids don't suffer from it, or very very rarely. http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/projects/saortho/chapter_83/83mast.htm As well as the genetic angle it seems diet and early upbringing also protects them. Some studies have found the aforementioned early neutering increases the risk because of improper and late ossification of growing bone ends. So these things seem multifactoral as is usually the case. Some of the less obviously physical "defects" common in our pets may be as much or very influenced by environment.

Cherry Blossom · 19-11-2011 11:10pm

GT_TDI_150 wrote: »

Ok, so regardless of where one ends up looking for a pup, what are the questions you would want to ask to try and satisfy you are not dealing with a puppy farmer, and that the mother and pup have been treated as should

Outside the obvious research the breed thoroughly beforehand and ask lots of questions you already know the answers to, buy yourself a 'breed' manual and ask to see proof of any and all claims made by the seller. Ask for a copy of the pedigree of both parents and google the names on it, you never know what this could turn up. Contact the breed club and ask them if they are familiar with the bloodlines or the seller and also any 'all breed' clubs local to them.

http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/how-select-good-breeder

http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/how-select-good-puppy

Most importantly, be willing to walk away, it would be pointless putting all this effort in only to take a pup anyway because you felt exasperated at the thought of having to do it all again.

meoklmrk91 · 20-11-2011 1:37am

I bought my dog from a Donedeal breeder, he was meant to be a pet so I didn't really care about pedigree, I am still waiting for his papers a year later and doubt I will ever see them despite the fact that both his parents were registered. But he is neutered, never planned to breed, so quite frankly it doesn't bother me.

If I was buying a dog again I would be extremely wary, whilst I would like to support responsible breeding I feel that the vast majority of show breeders breed for the aesthetic as opposed to the health, a sad but very true fact, that is why we have so many dogs with so many damning health problems today. If they didn't breed for the aesthetic then they wouldn't win shows so really what is the point. Point in case the Rhodesian Ridgebacks, without the ridge (approx 1 in 20 pups) they are not accepted but with the ridge they are susceptible to Spine-abifida and teeny tiny holes on the surface of the skin which look like nothing but in fact go right into the spine or the skull leaving them highly vulnerable to infections and viruses'. To be honest I don't think that that can be described as ethical or responsible breeding.

It is a touchy subject, do I support Puppy farms, hell no, BYB, as long as everyone is healthchecked to the highest standard and well treated, why not to be honest. As for show breeders, I would have previously been very supportive and would have gone this way after doing research after getting my dog and realising where I went wrong, now I am not so sure...

luckyfrank · 20-11-2011 1:45am

Ok guys i just bought/deposit down for a husky i saw both parents i saw had papers, i was showing the microchip with a reader, when i pick the pup up in a few weeks ill have vet cards, ive gotten the dog i wanted blue eyes and male and pure white

Im very happy, ive seeing 3 other pups before this which i wasnt happy, there are some creeps on donedeal but there are decent people too

andreac · 20-11-2011 1:48am

Lucy, did you see the hip scores of the parents? This is absolutely vital in Huskies. I wouldnt touch a breeder who hasnt Hip scored.

luckyfrank · 20-11-2011 1:57am

andreac wrote: »

Lucy, did you see the hip scores of the parents? This is absolutely vital in Huskies. I wouldnt touch a breeder who hasnt Hip scored.

No i did not see hip score, both parents looked fine and moved around freely

The sire had 5 generations of papers and was a stunning dog, tbh i asked how much deposit i shoud give and they replied what ever your want

That was enough for me i trusted them 100%

andreac · 20-11-2011 1:59am

luckyfrank wrote: »

No i did not see hip score, both parents looked fine and moved around freely

The sire had 5 generations of papers and was a stunning dog, tbh i asked how much deposit i shoud give and they replied what ever your want

That was enough for me i trusted them 100%

Sorry, but that is not enough. A dog can walk freely but have very bad hip scores which could be passed on to the pups.

I really think you need to rethink this breeder if they dont have the health checks.
Moving around freely means nothing, 5 gen pedigree means nothing either when it comes to health.

But if you want to go ahead and buy this pup its up to you....

Cherry Blossom · 20-11-2011 2:05am

luckyfrank wrote: »

Ok guys i just bought/deposit down for a husky i saw both parents i saw had papers, i was showing the microchip with a reader, when i pick the pup up in a few weeks ill have vet cards, ive gotten the dog i wanted blue eyes and male and pure white

ISDW is the husky expert around here, I'd recommend dropping her a PM, she will best be able to advise you.

I believe I've just found their site, since they say they are so concerned about the health of the breed they should have no issues with you enquiring about hip scores, if they can't provide them I would say that it's what I suspect and is 'marketing drivel', an extremely common ploy to charge more money than other people whom they are in fact just equal to. If they have no proof their dogs are higher quality health-wise, this is because they aren't. I'd have concerns about any breeder where half of their website is written in txt spk and simple spelling mistakes tbh.

artieanna · 20-11-2011 3:20am

So where would people suggest a family with a basic income get a puppy?

I ask because the figures mentioned (€600+)to buy "proper bred" dogs is well out of a lot of peoples reach.

I know a few people who put dogs on donedeal specifically because of an accidental mating. This can and does happen before a female is considered old enough to be neutered. This has happened to me with my dog (I kept her indoors as soon as I realised she was in heat, but it was still too late) and cat both of whom were neutered as soon as the vet would allow.

lorebringer · 20-11-2011 9:58am

artieanna wrote: »

So where would people suggest a family with a basic income get a puppy?

I ask because the figures mentioned (€600+)to buy "proper bred" dogs is well out of a lot of peoples reach.

I know a few people who put dogs on donedeal specifically because of an accidental mating. This can and does happen before a female is considered old enough to be neutered. This has happened to me with my dog (I kept her indoors as soon as I realised she was in heat, but it was still too late) and cat both of whom were neutered as soon as the vet would allow.

If you are not interested in breeding (ethically) or showing then rescues are fantastic places to get great pets. There are dogs of all shapes and sizes - pure breeds, mixed breeds, all ages, all with different temperaments and personalities. Even if you have your heart set on a certain breed, have a look around your local rescues and pounds and you are very likely to fall in love! Often, rescues assess their dogs so that he owner knows what they are getting before they bring the dog home and many chip, neuter, vaccinate etc. their dogs so the donation cost covers a whole lot! Plus, you are giving a dog a home that would otherwise not have one - win win all round

Cherry Blossom · 20-11-2011 10:18am

artieanna wrote: »

So where would people suggest a family with a basic income get a puppy?

I ask because the figures mentioned (€600+)to buy "proper bred" dogs is well out of a lot of peoples reach.

€600 divided by 15 years is €40 per year, that's how much it costs for peace of mind. Over the course of its life a dog on average will cost in the region of €15,000 to €30,000 in food, necessities, vaccinations and pet insurance, how can people afford this if they can't pay an additional €200 on the initial outlay of the dog?

artieanna wrote: »

I know a few people who put dogs on donedeal specifically because of an accidental mating. This can and does happen before a female is considered old enough to be neutered. This has happened to me with my dog (I kept her indoors as soon as I realised she was in heat, but it was still too late) and cat both of whom were neutered as soon as the vet would allow.

This was how my current dog came into the world, the female was not neutered because the owner was told by their vet it could affect her coat and ability to work, the male (bought as a companion for her) was not neutered because he was 6 months old but had been neutered since the pups were born. The money that was handed over would not have come close to covering the costs they incurred. I verified everything I was told and it all checked out so I was happy enough to go ahead as I had not been misled in any way and it was obvious a mistake had been made in lieu of extremely bad advice from a professional, but to do this again now - I don't think I'd be prepared to hand over any money at all. Part of going down this route is that you freely accept any risks and consequences.

I just have to add though that I didn't find this litter advertised on an adverts site. Also my dog has not been problem free and she is still only a year and a half old. She was diagnosed as possibly having a hormone imbalance - further investigation was not needed as neutering solved the problem. She also has a lot of food issues which getting to the bottom of has cost more in my time and effort than it would have been worth in paying the difference for a pup from a better source.

mr_edge_to_you · 20-11-2011 10:24am

Slightly different circumstances and requirements from the op. We were looking for a dog for a while. Our specific requirement was that it was female and medium to large size. We were looking at pounds and on done deal.

One day we found an ad on done deal for Labrador Pointer cross pups. Free to a good home. We rang and explained that we were interested in the last remaining brown pup. We went down and we found that the people were dog lovers of the highest order. The parents were two pedigree dogs who we saw. They were hoping to breed Labrador pups but the pointer ruined that plan. The pointer wouldve been trained and I think the lab was more of a family pet. The pups were 12 weeks old, wormed, had them asleep on blanket with the clock etc. She's an amazing dog has become a significant member of the family.

You can get some very good people on DoneDeal. If people are looking to offer pups free there's a fair chance that the owners are honey decent people.

lrushe · 20-11-2011 11:32am

artieanna wrote: »

So where would people suggest a family with a basic income get a puppy?

I ask because the figures mentioned (€600+)to buy "proper bred" dogs is well out of a lot of peoples reach.

I know a few people who put dogs on donedeal specifically because of an accidental mating. This can and does happen before a female is considered old enough to be neutered. This has happened to me with my dog (I kept her indoors as soon as I realised she was in heat, but it was still too late) and cat both of whom were neutered as soon as the vet would allow.

I spent 4 or 5 years researching my last dog. By the time I knew all there was to know about the breed, found a breeder I liked & waited for a litter to be born I had the purchase fee (€850) saved twice over.

People are often under the impression that if their dogs is mated then there has to be a litter as a result. This is not true. There is an injection to prevent a pregnancy 'taking' which can be given not long after the mating. If the dog is further along a spay/termination can be preformed.
I'm sorry be I don't understand why there are so many 'accidental litters', if my dog was accidentally mated I would make sure there was no litter to follow.

Latatian · 20-11-2011 4:48pm

Going to see dogs- it's a good idea to bring along a dog-knowledgeable friend.

Ask to see both parents- they are unlikely to have both parents. A puppy mill probably will have the stud dog as well and may or may not admit this or let you see them. A decent breeder may or may not have the stud dog. A one-off from a family pet, the stud dog probably won't be there.

Ask how many litters they have in a year.

If it's not a 'family pet' type situation ask what the dogs do (work show sport etc wise)- a breeder will want to promote their dogs, get them out there. The dogs should be for more than just reproducing and making money, they should be for having fun as well.

If it is or seems to be that the family pet has had a litter, have a look and see if she seems like the actual mother of the litter. Some puppy farms will put a bitch and a litter into a family home, and they may pick out a healthier looking bitch than the one who actually gave birth. An acquaintance recently got a pup from a family home with xyz breed of dog, very close to a known puppy mill of that breed. The pup now looks nothing like the mother and much more like other dogs I've seen from that place.

Ask what she's like as a pet (see if she demands attention like a pet dog would, or does tricks- if someone's put work into her), and look at the interaction between the pups, the family, and the bitch. Everyone should look familiar with each other and like they're getting along. The dogs shouldn't look afraid or nervous of the people, even new people.

If you get grilled on the pup's future wellbeing and they ask you to spay the pup, and let them have it back if you can't keep it for any reason at any time, it's a good sign. Bear in mind that there's no-one who tells lies like a puppy farmer though, so be on your toes and always compare what they say with what you see in front of you. These guys can be really plausible and convincing.
http://www.dspca.ie/avoidpuppyfarms

Zapperzy · 20-11-2011 4:59pm

artieanna wrote: »

So where would people suggest a family with a basic income get a puppy?

I ask because the figures mentioned (€600+)to buy "proper bred" dogs is well out of a lot of peoples reach.

I know a few people who put dogs on donedeal specifically because of an accidental mating. This can and does happen before a female is considered old enough to be neutered. This has happened to me with my dog (I kept her indoors as soon as I realised she was in heat, but it was still too late) and cat both of whom were neutered as soon as the vet would allow.

But most 'average' income familys wouldn't think twice about handing over €600+ for a tv or a washing machine or a new car. This is a living breathing animal that will hopefully be alive for 15+ years, how many people can say they've had their tv, washing machine or car for 15 years? And a lot of people put more effort into researching an inanimate object like a tv, looking at different brands, reading reviews etc, than they do an animal!

Discodog · 20-11-2011 6:35pm

laoch na mona wrote: »

donedeal is okay you can tell if its a puppy farmer when you pick the dog up

So how do you tell ? There is not going to be a sign saying "Puppy Farm". If you look back over this thread you will of already seen that Puppy Farms use accomplices & sellers to sell their dogs.

You could go to a nice house, see two adult dogs with the pups, children, Vet certs, hip scores etc etc & it could still be a puppy farm. The adult dogs may not be the parents & the pups may well not even be from the same litter.

The majority of buyers will have no idea if Vet cert or hip score is genuine. I can copy a bit of Vet letterhead & tell you anything that you want to hear. These people are not stupid. They make a fortune selling pups & they know how to lure in a buyer.

You cannot seriously believe that 500 new pups, that's how many that have just gone onto donedeal, are all from genuine people. For a start no reputable breeder would sell pups for Christmas. The majority have to of come from dubious sources.

The only way to buy safely is to check & double check everything. Check any healthcheck by phoning the Vet & also check that the Vet did the vaccs & microchip. Really investigate the seller & ask lots of questions before you visit. Ask if it is OK to bring your Vet to see the pups. Ask if they are happy to show you photo ID & maybe a couple of utility bills.

It is the way that they respond that is important. If they are responsible breeders then they will be willing to answer all your questions & provide any proofs. In fact the more you ask the more that they will want to sell to you as you will be a responsible owner.

GT_TDI_150 · 20-11-2011 11:12pm

200+ post later and my mind is still all over the place ...

one minute I think, go the donedeal route, be extremely weary, ask the right questions, look for everything to be backed up by paperwork, see the mother, see the interaction between her and the pups, .... and walk away if something doesnt seem right. Not every pup up there could come from a puppy farm. and know I'd have no concerns about the 'narrow' breeding breeders do

the next minute I think, dont run the risk of aiding a puppy farmer, save up, pay the extra bit, be as vigil as I would be with byb but get a few more safeguards in place, be 'asured' that the breeder has the dogs best interest at heart(eventhough I find this hard with some of the stories mentioned earlier - of continued breeding with 'unhealthy' sires)

Cherry Blossom · 20-11-2011 11:31pm

OP, the thread took on a life of it's own I'm afraid, every breed has different issues. There are 13 pages of BFs on DD, I don't believe it would be a hard task to find one in need of good home in January. Trying to weed something respectable out of 13 pages of dogs specificly bred as christmas presents would be near impossible though in all honesty.

Hellrazer · 20-11-2011 11:35pm

mr_edge_to_you wrote: »

You can get some very good people on DoneDeal. If people are looking to offer pups free there's a fair chance that the owners are honey decent people.

I agree.The ones selling the mongrels with mental names are the ones to avoid.If someone is giving the pups away for free then they are more than likely 100% genuine.

Ive known lots of people who have gotten dogs for free from donedeal and they even said that the person trying to find homes were decent people.

Red Harvest · 20-11-2011 11:57pm

OP I said earlier we bought a dog advertised on Donedeal but one of the main reason we even went for a look was because the breeder was only 20 minutes drive away. That made it a lot easier to check things out we only needed one visit to pick a pup out and pay a deposit but also made a couple more trips to see how they were developing very easy. So what I am trying to say is don't put yourself at a disadvantage by travelling hundreds of miles and then thinking that you have to buy something when you get there.

I'd say we'd been talking about getting another dog for at least a year and probably longer before I spotted the ad and even then I went to look with no definite intention of buying, although my wife might have had different ideas

.

laoch na mona · 21-11-2011 12:02am

Hellrazer wrote: »

mongrels

all my dogs are mongrels and there's nothing wrong with them

Donedeal and the likes

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