Donedeal and the likes

GT_TDI_150

Ok, I'm not sure how to word this without starting Word War ... what number WW are we up to now?

As you might have spotted from my 2 other post here ... we are looking for a dog sometime after the new year. I think it will be a Bichon Frise tbh, altough that isnt set in stone, but ... and here is my dilemma ...

I contacted IKC and got contact details for the bichon club secretary.
After a little chat I was advised that there would be no pup available this side of christmas ... that fair enough(wouldnt expect there to be, nor would I get one this side of xmas ... just too hectic for a puppy), I was told about their temperament, their non-shed feature;), when I asked what I can expect to I was told €700 - €800:eek:.

Anytime I've contact breeders (had to check it for my parents when they got their rottie and their bernese prior to that), it seems that they think that all people looking for dogs are getting them to show/potentially bread at some stage.

We dont want to do either. We'd like a bichon for company. Irrespective of what 'breed' we get, we just want the main charachteristics if that makes sence (i.e. we had 2 bernese mountain dogs when I was younger, both didnt have perfect markings but ... were lovely soft, cuddly, dosile, ... so eventhough they werent 100% as they should be they were brilliant dogs, displaying most of the breeds chars)

Ok, what Im trying to get at is ...there are numerous bichons on donedeal ranging from €200-€500, for that matter, there are 1000's of puppies on there at seriously reduced prices compared to official breeders ... they can not all come from 'puppy farmers' so how do you pick out the honest family that had some pups they are trying give a good home.

I'm not sure if the above makes sense ...

how do you get a dog from a website,... and not get it from a puppy farmer?

andreac

Sorry, but they are cheap for a reason...

The reason they are cheap is because they are badly bred, bred with little or no thought put into health testing the sire and dam and so on.

A good breeder charges more as they are good pedigrees, good examples of the breed, health tested etc and this all costs money to carry out, hence why most so called breeders charge less, because they do none of this and just churn out puppies and try and make as much money as possible with as little over heads as possible.

Just because a good breeder charges more, doesnt mean all the pups are for show homes. It means they are bred very well, healthy etc..
Also, just to note, not all puppies in a little would be show quality anyway and most breeders will only usually have a small percentage in a litter which would be suitable for showing so they rest go to good pet homes that wont be showing.
The majority of puppies for sale online are from back yard breeders and puppies farmers so i really would steer clear. If you arent prepared to pay for a well bred pup, then i suggest you look into rescuing a dog as buying cheap is a recipe for disaster....

PinkFly

please dont do it
i have a bischon frise 2 months from the same website and was delighted to see it was a bargain, yeah rite, he came with fleas and badly infected ears from ear mites and severely under weight, the next ay I checked the website and the dealer had it advertised that her bitch was pregnant again, reported it but still feel disgusted with myself for funding a puppy farm. Hes still a puppy obviously but god only knows what problems will arrive due to his breeding.

El Guapo!

Hi op,
Myself and my girlfriend only bought a Bichon Frise puppy last week. We bought him from Donedeal and he cost us €260.
I heard of all these "puppy farmers" and the horror stories associated with them so I was careful about who I bought from.

I just gauged it from how the seller came across to me. The lady we got our pup from was very nice and extremely helpful. We went out to her house to view the dog and he was in good living conditions. The mother and father of the puppy were both there and they were happy and healthy.

The lady explained to us that she had always reared Bichons for many years and sold them. So by this logic she could probably be considered a "puppy farmer". However, she obviously wasn't doing it for the money. It was just for the love of it.
She genuinely cared for the puppys and asked us to keep in contact and send her pics as he grows up. She had already gotten him his 1st vaccination and gave us the paperwork as proof. She then gave us a bottle of worm medicine too and showed us how to use it. She gave us factsheets she had written on how to care for him and told us lots of tips and tricks for keeping him happy and healthy.

We took him home and are both very happy with him. We had him in the vet today to get vaccinated and microchipped and the vet told us that he is a perfect example of a pup and is very happy and healthy.
Sorry for the long post but I just wanted to get across that just because a puppy is for sale on Donedeal doesn't mean they're unhealthy or inferior and it doesn't mean the seller is Cruella De vil.
Best of luck getting your pup.

Bookworm85

GT_TDI_150 wrote: »

....
how do you get a dog from a website,... and not get it from a puppy farmer?

To be honest, I'm not sure that is possible OP.

Yes, reputable breeders do have websites, but they would never sell their dogs online. Any reputable breeder would expect to meet you first to answer any questions you might have and to give you info on their breed.

As andreac has already said, dogs on donedeal are cheap for a reason. Chances are that no health testing has been done (and this doesn't mean a quick rub down by the vet). The overwhelming majority of dogs on donedeal come from puppy mills and back yard breeders who couldn't give a toss who their dogs are sold to or what happens to them once they are sold.

GT_TDI_150

andreac wrote: »

Sorry, but they are cheap for a reason...

The reason they are cheap is because they are badly bred, bred with little or no thought put into health testing the sire and dam and so on.

A good breeder charges more as they are good pedigrees, good examples of the breed, health tested etc and this all costs money to carry out, hence why most so called breeders charge less, because they do none of this and just churn out puppies and try and make as much money as possible with as little over heads as possible.

Just because a good breeder charges more, doesnt mean all the pups are for show homes. It means they are bred very well, healthy etc..
Also, just to note, not all puppies in a little would be show quality anyway and most breeders will only usually have a small percentage in a litter which would be suitable for showing so they rest go to good pet homes that wont be showing.
The majority of puppies for sale online are from back yard breeders and puppies farmers so i really would steer clear. If you arent prepared to pay for a well bred pup, then i suggest you look into rescuing a dog as buying cheap is a recipe for disaster....

It just seems that unless it is a 'pure bred' the dog 'good enough as a dog'

If we could find a rescue bichon pup we would love it.

I appreciate that not all pups will be show quality but if that is the case, then why are all the pups priced so 'expensive'

SlimCi

I'm afraid I disagree completely. Just because an animal is tagged at a high price does not mean it has been bred properly either. I have recently put down my own beloved Tibetan Terrier who was bred by a very reputable breeder who has all the papers due to the fact that he developed an inherited condition called Primary Lens Luxation which must be carried by both parents to be passed on to its progeny. There is no insurance either way of the health of the dog no matter who breeds it. If you are going to buy a dog off Donedeal etc you should ask the right questions regarding health testing etc and you should definitely arrange to see the dog in its home environment. It is my experience that you will twig if something is not right, and make sure to examine the puppy and pick it up and interact with it as much as possible. There are certainly genuine people selling pups born in family homes on those sites but be very wary and of course these dogs will probably not have been hip scored, eye tested etc. And make yourself aware of the genetic problems that can arise in the breed. And strongest advice of all is get insurance

GT_TDI_150

Bookworm85 wrote: »

The overwhelming majority of dogs on donedeal come from puppy mills and back yard breeders who couldn't give a toss who their dogs are sold to or what happens to them once they are sold.

Is it not both a good and bad thing to get one of these pups?

bad as it will not achieve them stopping to continue their ways, good because you would have taken a pup out of that scenario and given it a good home?

andreac

GT_TDI_150 wrote: »

It just seems that unless it is a 'pure bred' the dog 'good enough as a dog'

If we could find a rescue bichon pup we would love it.

I appreciate that not all pups will be show quality but if that is the case, then why are all the pups priced so 'expensive'

Because the same care goes into the whole litter, not just to one or two of the pups, they all get the same care and rearing, it doesnt differ because one will be shown and the other one isnt.

The same care and consideration goes into breeding the bitch, rearing and handling the pups.

Bookworm85

GT_TDI_150 wrote: »

I appreciate that not all pups will be show quality but if that is the case, then why are all the pups priced so 'expensive'

Because it costs a lot to breed dogs. Breeders will spend thousands on heath tests such as hip and elbow scoring, eye tests etc. before they breed their dogs. These tests practically ensure that any pups wont be crippled with conditions like hip displacia, luxating patellas (spelling??) later in life. They spend a fortune on vets fees on the bitch while she is pregnant and on the pups when they are born. They will vaccinate, worm and flea treat your pup, and of course feed it and house it until it is sold. None of this is cheap and this is reflected in the price of their pups.

By going to a breeder who does these tests you are practically ensuring that you get a healthy dog that isn't going to need a fortune of vet treatments a few years down the line.

the cheap dogs on that website will have none of this testing and may not even see a vet before you buy them!

andreac

GT_TDI_150 wrote: »

Is it not both a good and bad thing to get one of these pups?

bad as it will not achieve them stopping to continue their ways, good because you would have taken a pup out of that scenario and given it a good home?

No, its def not a good thing to buy these puppies. It only funds these horrible people and creates a market for even more puppies to be bred badly and in bad conditions. If there wasnt a market for them, then these puppy farmers wouldnt have to churn out puppies if the demand wasnt there.

GT_TDI_150

andreac wrote: »

No, its def not a good thing to buy these puppies. It only funds these horrible people and creates a market for even more puppies to be bred badly and in bad conditions. If there wasnt a market for them, then these puppy farmers wouldnt have to churn out puppies if the demand wasnt there.

sorry for playing devils advocate but what would happen to them if no-one bought them?

like I said at teh top, not picking for a fight, just trying to make sence of it all. from dean09 and slimci's storys above, you can go breeder route and end up wth an ill pup and you can go the other route and get a good pup

Bookworm85

andreac wrote: »

No, its def not a good thing to buy these puppies. It only funds these horrible people and creates a market for even more puppies to be bred badly and in bad conditions. If there wasnt a market for them, then these puppy farmers wouldnt have to churn out puppies if the demand wasnt there.

+1

and I think a lot of puppy farmers prey on people who want to 'rescue' a dog from this type of scenario. Again, as andreac said, it just frees up space for more pups to be bred. If people didn't buy them, then they wouldn't breed them.

TooManyDogs

Why not check the rescue sites? Bichons seem to come into rescue fairly often and while it won't be a puppy it won't be anywhere the prices the good breeders were quoting you. The rescue will also have an idea of their temperament. It'd be a bit of a comprimise between risking buying a puppy farmed dog and spending huge money on a show bred dog

andreac

GT_TDI_150 wrote: »

sorry for playing devils advocate but what would happen to them if no-one bought them?

like I said at teh top, not picking for a fight, just trying to make sence of it all. from dean09 and slimci's storys above, you can go breeder route and end up wth an ill pup and you can go the other route and get a good pup

You have a better chance of finding a good pup with a reputable breeder than a healthy pup from an online site.

If no oen bought them then they would prob have to give them away and hopefully not breed again as its too much hassle to breed again and because they arent making any money anymore.

Bullseye1

The inferior breed dog will probably end up costing you more in medical bills in the long run. Better to pay the premium for a good quality IKC pup. Wait and get the quality or pick another breed closer to your budget. Maybe the breed have a rescue society with good quality dogs looking for a home.

I will say IKC does not guarantee quality but it should.

GT_TDI_150

TooManyDogs wrote: »

Why not check the rescue sites? Bichons seem to come into rescue fairly often and while it won't be a puppy it won't be anywhere the prices the good breeders were quoting you. The rescue will also have an idea of their temperament. It'd be a bit of a comprimise between risking buying a puppy farmed dog and spending huge money on a show bred dog

again, rescue would appeal

andreac wrote: »

You have a better chance of finding a good pup with a reputable breeder than a healthy pup from an online site.

If no oen bought them then they would prob have to give them away and hopefully not breed again as its too much hassle to breed again and because they arent making any money anymore.

if they are scrupilous(spelling) enough to puppy farm, then they i doubt they will just give them away, they'd probably dispose

Catlover

Yes, a rescue dog would be a good solution, and you'd know that you were helping a dog. Does anyone really want to support puppy farmers?

andreac

GT_TDI_150 wrote: »

again, rescue would appeal




if they are scrupilous(spelling) enough to puppy farm, then they i doubt they will just give them away, they'd probably dispose

But they wouldnt be breeding in the first place if there wasnt a market for them.

GT_TDI_150

andreac wrote: »

But they wouldnt be breeding in the first place if there wasnt a market for them.

I get that but you still have the issue of the puppies that are out there at the moment, if everybody ignored them, they're life wouldnt be worth living, if they would get the chance at all.



when all is said and done, I might still get one from a breeder, at the moment I just dont know

Shanao

OP, just on the topic of what puppy farmers do with unsold pups etc there is a rescue in the south of Ireland that recently (bout a month or two back) found a puppy farm and the owner handed over about ten dogs out of there because he wasn't making enough money on selling pups. From what I can remember, five or six of those dogs were pregnant and have gone into rescue. This isn't the first time this has happened and quite a few rescues have had puppy farm dogs brought to them or dumped right outside their premises. In cases like that, at least the puppy farmer is not being paid and if there was no market at all, they wouldn't continue to breed.

If you come across a place and feel sorry for a puppy, dont buy it, report the place instead. But never, ever, ever hand over your well-earned cash for a puppy farmed/backyard bred puppy. It almost always ends in heartbreak

ISDW

The sentiment of 'saving' a puppy from a puppy farmer is how most of them stay in business. I understand what you're saying OP, but what about the pups mother? You and other people save the pups, so the owner knows theres money to be made, so she is bred again in her next season, and her next, and her next. Then she is of no more use, so if she's lucky she'll get a bullet in the head or dumped in a pound. Of course this could also be the fate of unbought puppies, which is what you're saying, and I complete understand your abhorrence of it, but why is it wrong for a pup to die in this way, but not the mother or father? The next litter that comes along, maybe not all of them will sell, they start to get a bit big, costing too much to feed, so they are disposed of. Then the next litter comes along, and so it goes on. Very, very sad for pups to be killed but in reality it is better for it to happen to one litter, and the puppy farmer decides to get out of the business, than for 1 or 2 pups from each litter to suffer that fate.

Don't be fooled either by a nice old woman who just has a litter, and you see it and the parents in her nice, clean, loving home. Puppy farmers have families, and they use family members and friends to sell their pups, they move them into those homes when people are coming to view. It does not mean that is where they were born and reared. They know all the tricks.

If you want a pedigree Bichon, then find out what health problems they can suffer from, and make sure that the parents of your pup has had the relevant health tests for any genetic issues, and see the proof of those tests, don't take the breeder's word for it.

Catlover

andreac wrote: »

But they wouldnt be breeding in the first place if there wasnt a market for them.

If there was no market, they'd soon stop breeding, and keeping poor bitches in appalling conditions.

closifer

GT_TDI_150 wrote: »

Ok, I'm not sure how to word this without starting Word War ... what number WW are we up to now?

As you might have spotted from my 2 other post here ... we are looking for a dog sometime after the new year. I think it will be a Bichon Frise tbh, altough that isnt set in stone, but ... and here is my dilemma ...

I contacted IKC and got contact details for the bichon club secretary.
After a little chat I was advised that there would be no pup available this side of christmas ... that fair enough(wouldnt expect there to be, nor would I get one this side of xmas ... just too hectic for a puppy), I was told about their temperament, their non-shed feature;), when I asked what I can expect to I was told €700 - €800:eek:.

Anytime I've contact breeders (had to check it for my parents when they got their rottie and their bernese prior to that), it seems that they think that all people looking for dogs are getting them to show/potentially bread at some stage.

We dont want to do either. We'd like a bichon for company. Irrespective of what 'breed' we get, we just want the main charachteristics if that makes sence (i.e. we had 2 bernese mountain dogs when I was younger, both didnt have perfect markings but ... were lovely soft, cuddly, dosile, ... so eventhough they werent 100% as they should be they were brilliant dogs, displaying most of the breeds chars)

Ok, what Im trying to get at is ...there are numerous bichons on donedeal ranging from €200-€500, for that matter, there are 1000's of puppies on there at seriously reduced prices compared to official breeders ... they can not all come from 'puppy farmers' so how do you pick out the honest family that had some pups they are trying give a good home.

I'm not sure if the above makes sense ...

how do you get a dog from a website,... and not get it from a puppy farmer?

I would be surprised if any breeders are still charging that kind of money. I would ring a couple of breeders ans see what they say. I would bet that the IKC are still giving out the guideline prices from a couple of years back.

The reason I say this is that a the IKC told me that I would be looking at 1,200 for a chihuahua about a year ago. I found a breeder and have recently gotten a chihuahua for 600 from an excellent breeder. The breeeder told me he had been charging between 1200 and 1500 2 years ago and he is now charging b etween 600-800 as people just dont have the money anymore.

Those prices you were quoted were Celtic Tiger prices i would suspect.

GT_TDI_150

closifer wrote: »

I would be surprised if any breeders are still charging that kind of money. I would ring a couple of breeders ans see what they say. I would bet that the IKC are still giving out the guideline prices from a couple of years back.

The reason I say this is that a the IKC told me that I would be looking at 1,200 for a chihuahua about a year ago. I found a breeder and have recently gotten a chihuahua for 600 from an excellent breeder. The breeeder told me he had been charging between 1200 and 1500 2 years ago and he is now charging b etween 600-800 as people just dont have the money anymore.

Those prices you were quoted were Celtic Tiger prices i would suspect.

it was the secretary of the BF breeder club quoted me €800

closifer

GT_TDI_150 wrote: »

it was the secretary of the BF breeder club quoted me €800

I know. It was the sceretary of the chihuahua club who quoted me 1,200! But that isnt necessarily what breeders are actually charging AT ALL!

Zulu

I'm not going to be popular for saying this but...


We bought our lab from donedeal. She's perfect. Very smart, beautiful looking. I did a lot of ringing around, and I read up a lot. I drove from Dublin to Cashel to see her & we picked her up from a family that bread their two dogs. It wasn't an ideal setup, it wasn't a "breeder".
That said, she had her vet check card. I saw both her parents IKC membership & I saw her own IKC cert. I picked from 5 pups, 3 bitchs & 2 male. She was my favourate, but I said nothing & my wife picked her, so we both agreed.

She's a year old on the 10th of December, and I couldn't be happier.

She's great with our nephews & neices who are 1, 2, 5, & 7. She's lets strange toddlers in the park come up and hug her. She's fantastic. She's extreamly smart. A perfect dog.

You could go to a breeder and get a bad dog. Nothing is gaurenteed, but in fairness, a breeder would help you out in that event I'm sure. If you check out who you are buying off. Go see the sire & dam. See where they are kept. See if there are kids around. Spend as much time with the sire & dam as you do with the pups. You'll get a picture.

andreac

Zulu wrote: »

I'm not going to be popular for saying this but...


We bought our lab from donedeal. She's perfect. Very smart, beautiful looking. I did a lot of ringing around, and I read up a lot. I drove from Dublin to Cashel to see her & we picked her up from a family that bread their two dogs. It wasn't an ideal setup, it wasn't a "breeder".
That said, she had her vet check card. I saw both her parents IKC membership & I saw her own IKC cert. I picked from 5 pups, 3 bitchs & 2 male. She was my favourate, but I said nothing & my wife picked her, so we both agreed.

She's a year old on the 10th of December, and I couldn't be happier.

She's great with our nephews & neices who are 1, 2, 5, & 7. She's lets strange toddlers in the park come up and hug her. She's fantastic. She's extreamly smart. A perfect dog.

You could go to a breeder and get a bad dog. Nothing is gaurenteed, but in fairness, a breeder would help you out in that event I'm sure. If you check out who you are buying off. Go see the sire & dam. See where they are kept. See if there are kids around. Spend as much time with the sire & dam as you do with the pups. You'll get a picture.

Sorry but that is not enough, far from it.

Did you check if the parents were health tested, ie Hip Scored?? Hip dysplacia is a major problem in Labradors so its so important the parents are tested for this before breeding.

emmabrighton

I always find the issue of back yard breeder so hard to get my head around. What is the difference between one of them and a proper breeder starting with their first bitch and their first litter? The reason i ask - and maybe its different with horses -is that my neighbour started with one retired show jumping mare which became their foundation mare. Her great grandson reached the top price at goresbridge a few weeks ago and many of his cousins are competing successfully in eventing and jumping ridden by the likes of : sarra mayberry, louise lyons, linda courtney, etc.

She had only farmed sheep until then. When she started out, she was just having a go because the market was there but now the irish sport horse has improved as a result of her input. Whose to say a byb could not go on to produce a potential crufts winner just because she is only in her first generation now? Just a question, not wanting to start an arguement.

andreac

emmabrighton wrote: »

I always find the issue of back yard breeder so hard to get my head around. What is the difference between one of them and a proper breeder starting with their first bitch and their first litter? The reason i ask - and maybe its different with horses -is that my neighbour started with one retired show jumping mare which became their foundation mare. Her great grandson reached the top price at goresbridge a few weeks ago and many of his cousins are competing successfully in eventing and jumping ridden by the likes of : sarra mayberry, louise lyons, linda courtney, etc.

She had only farmed sheep until then. When she started out, she was just having a go because the market was there but now the irish sport horse has improved as a result of her input. Whose to say a byb could not go on to produce a potential crufts winner just because she is only in her first generation now? Just a question, not wanting to start an arguement.

A good breeder will health test their dogs first and ensure the dog they are breeding from are suitable and a good example of the breed that have little or no faults that should stop them from being bred from. They will show or work their dogs and prove them worthy dogs to be bred from.

A byb doesnt do this or try to ensure any of this, they just breed their pet because they are a pedigree dog and can make money from them, no other reasons.

ppink

What does the IKC cert actually tell people. It is not a record of a healthy dog is it? or do IKC registered breeders have to have these tests done to be registered in the firat place?