Donedeal and the likes

andreac

Zulu wrote: »

Of course it would! But alas we dont live in a perfect world...

Its not about being perfect though. We have the chance to ensure we buy a pup from health tested parents as opposed to byb, so why wouldnt we do this? Its nothing to do with a perfect world, its about doing the right thing for the dogs and the dogs future.

Discodog

To get back to the OP's original post. The facts are that it is virtually impossible to guarantee that you will get a good pup whether it from an advert or a recognised breeder. Panorama Pedigree Dogs Exposed showed that even top breeders will breed irresponsibly & an advertised pup may well be a puppy farm pup.

By going to a recognised breeder you minimise the risk but you don't eliminate it. A good breeder will have a reputation that they do not wish to lose. A good breeder will never advertise on sites like Donedeal. Not only will all their pups be pre sold but they should regulate the number of puppies to the current demand.

If you do decide to answer an advert then do the unexpected like arriving an hour early for your viewing appointment - just say that you misheard the time. That way you will know if the pups were "cleaned up" for your visit. Take a good look & see if the sellers phone number appears anywhere else - maybe try googling it.

Before you view ask if it is OK for your Vet to check the pup before you buy. The reply will tell you a lot about the seller. Ask for the name of the seller's Vet & call them. Tell the Vet that they will be looking after your new pup - that way they may be more likely to tell the truth.

I would even apply the same rules to the recognised breeder. Some may take exception to you questioning their authenticity - if they do then walk away.

When we buy puppies we want to find reasons to go ahead because we fall in love with the pup. Really you should look at it the other way round. In other words you should be determined not to buy the pup unless all of your questions are answered & your mind is put at rest. The wrong decision can not only be expensive but it can also be heartbreaking.

cos!!

Long time lurker!Just going to throw this out!It's not an attack and i agree with pretty much everything being said, but andrea you always talk about ikc registered breeders that show their dogs, and that you personally wouldnt buy from them if they didnt show, but lets take say the gsd a lot of breeders who show these (and successfully at that) know that their dogs have terrible hip scores, but these dogs have the desired sloping back and win shows?You cant say thats good breeding?(Just playing devils advocate really.)


EDIT: Just seen the post before me mentioned the bad breeding too.

lrushe

If you can go onto Donedeal & find a breeder who:
1. Showed / worked his/her dog to the highest level to prove they were suitable for breeding.
2. Waited until the dam was of breeding age.
3. Preformed all of the health testing associated with that breed - with certs to prove it.
4. Choose a sire who complemented his bitch & was similarly health tested.
5. Vacc'd, registered, chipped & socialised all the pups.
And if this breeder was selling them for €250 I'd tell you to bite their hand off but the truth is you won't find this because it's just not feasable to produce a healthy, well bred puppy for this, the stud fee alone could be more than twice this.
The notion of the nice family who just bred one litter from their beloved Fluffy & their kids play with them everyday by the kitchen fire is nice one but without proving that Fluffy is suitable to breed from & free from genetic illness then they are just as guilty as any puppy farmer of churning out potentional sick animals & adding to the problems that alot of pedigree dogs now have.

ppink

What I cannot understand is why the IKC does not take this all in hand and ensure that any animals registered with them are fully certified, with all the health checks done for the various breeds. I have no problem with dogs costing a fortune....in fact it would be better in some ways.

this way if there are any threads on "I want to buy a XYZ" then the simple answer is to check with IKC for breeders as all dogs registered with them are fully health checked. This would surely be an problem for puppy farmers also?
In fact I wonder why members of the IKC dont insist on this. It would only benefit them in the long run and weed out any of the problems.

ISDW

ppink wrote: »

What I cannot understand is why the IKC does not take this all in hand and ensure that any animals registered with them are fully certified, with all the health checks done for the various breeds. I have no problem with dogs costing a fortune....in fact it would be better in some ways.

this way if there are any threads on "I want to buy a XYZ" then the simple answer is to check with IKC for breeders as all dogs registered with them are fully health checked. This would surely be an problem for puppy farmers also?
In fact I wonder why members of the IKC dont insist on this. It would only benefit them in the long run and weed out any of the problems.

Great sentiments, but unfortunately all that happens when Kennel Clubs get stricter is that other registration agencies are set up with less stringent regulations. There are 2 registration agencies in Ireland, the IKC, with all of its flaws is by far and away the better one in my opinion.

andreac

cos!! wrote: »

Long time lurker!Just going to throw this out!It's not an attack and i agree with pretty much everything being said, but andrea you always talk about ikc registered breeders that show their dogs, and that you personally wouldnt buy from them if they didnt show, but lets take say the gsd a lot of breeders who show these (and successfully at that) know that their dogs have terrible hip scores, but these dogs have the desired sloping back and win shows?You cant say thats good breeding?(Just playing devils advocate really.)


EDIT: Just seen the post before me mentioned the bad breeding too.

I never said that. If you have seen my posts before about this you would see that i have always said the German Shepherds are in a terrible state and something badly needs to be done about it.
I would recommend you to go to a breeder that shows or works their dogs so they are deemed fit for purpose and are of excellent quality after being seen by experts in the breed.

I absolutely think the German Shepherds are in a terrible state and a lot of other exhibitors i know think the same, so please dont say i agree that all breeders that show are good breeders. We actually have some breeders involved in my own breed that are not good breeders but we are trying to sort that.

Unfortunately the IKC are all about the money and if they brought in mandatory health testing to register a litter, then they would have a massive drop in registrations and income from that as the hundreds of byb's and puppy farmers are obviously not going to do this so they wont be registering their dogs with the IKC then.

cos!!

andreac wrote: »

I never said that. If you have seen my posts before about this you would see that i have always said the German Shepherds are in a terrible state and something badly needs to be done about it.
I would recommend you to go to a breeder that shows or works their dogs so they are deemed fit for purpose and are of excellent quality after being seen by experts in the breed.

I absolutely think the German Shepherds are in a terrible state and a lot of other exhibitors i know think the same, so please dont say i agree that all breeders that show are good breeders. We actually have some breeders involved in my own breed that are not good breeders but we are trying to sort that.

Unfortunately the IKC are all about the money and if they brought in mandatory health testing to register a litter, then they would have a massive drop in registrations and income from that as the hundreds of byb's and puppy farmers are obviously not going to do this so they wont be registering their dogs with the IKC then.

Thanks for repying, like i said I not an attack was just throwing it out there and i agree with you completly its shocking the state of the german shepherd.I have two rescue dogs here but at some point do hope to be in a position to take on a german shepherd but i wouldnt buy one bred from show stock, I think I'd have to go down the working line route.

andreac

cos!! wrote: »

Thanks for repying, like i said I not an attack was just throwing it out there and i agree with you completly its shocking the state of the german shepherd.I have two rescue dogs here but at some point do hope to be in a position to take on a german shepherd but i wouldnt buy one bred from show stock, I think I'd have to go down the working line route.

Yeah you would be better off going that way for sure. Its the KC & the IKC that need to get the state of the Shepherds sorted out. Im nearly sure the KC in the UK have made steps to try and improve them but im not sure exactly what that entails.

Sigma Force

OP (haven't read all the posts just your origional one).. if you have your heart set on a certain breed of dog you will have to fork out that kind of high price.

We have two rescues and numerous other rescue animals have come through our doors, we have one dog we did buy from a breeder, wasn't cheap and we did our research and we are happy with him. We did not have a plan to breed him, so we neutered him, he is a pet but eventhough we had no plan to show or breed that did not mean I was going to skimp of health. The breed we chose isn't all that common so there aren't as many people breeding them as say Bichons or Westies or Labs etc.

Now some breeds are badly bred even my registered breeders...look at the controversy from Crufts. But other breeders are oppertunists and the dog breed you want is becoming the most popular breed out there, when a dog becomes such a popular breed you get a lot of chancers and oppertunitst so in fact you need to be even more careful where you buy.

If you are in any doubt and if the home the pup comes from isn't 100% perfect then walk away. If you do buy ensure you do your research and insist on a receipt..do not walk out their door without one and visit the home twice if possible to see the pups.

A good responsible breeder doesn't need to advertise much, mostly word of mouth and reputation is the way to go. A good breeder won't even breed their dog until they have homes lined up first..at least that's the way it should be so if someone has pups ready to go be suspicious.

There are so many things to look out for so not going to go through them all.

Do consider a rescue dog so many small ones in rescues and to be honest you will get the same joy and an extra bit on top of that knowing you've given a pooch a good home.

Cherry Blossom

Zulu wrote: »

All I'm saying is, that you can get all that without paying a large premium from a byb. Just because the hips haven't been scored (for example seeing as you mentioned it) doesn't mean the dog will have hip problems.
Chances are it won't.
.

Zulu - I'm not replying to your post to get into an argument, I just want to bring this post to your attention and ask you to educate yourself how to spot the early signs of these problems and to be extremely vigilant in watching out for them as your pup gets older. By the time my lab was 5 he was basicly knackered and lived a pretty rubbish life for the 9 years that followed.

GT_TDI_150

Boy-o-boy ... didn't mean to stir up this much emotion

I truly don't know what we will do ... I'll prob be contacting the bf club secretary guy to get some names of breeders after xmas. And start laying the ground works, its all about contacts i suppose. Hopefully i can establish when there is litters expected and at what price.

Would it be cheaky to bargain on the price? And thats not me saying im not willing to pay for quality, just always on the look out for a deal

On a side note, we've had 5dogs at home as far as i can remember. A non-breeder bernese, a breeder bernese, 2 mix 'breeds' and a non-breeder rottie. Out of the 5 the rottie is still young so prob not a fair measure yet but the others all had long healthy lifes apart from... the breed bernese she died from uterus infections, and was prone to them from an early age

Btw, when we went for the rottie we did look at boxers first and nearly purchased but some thing wasn't quite rite onle one of 4 pups looked 100% there the rest looked poor, ones face looked deformed...and we decided not to buy. Even lost deposit as mu y mum only decided when we got home that she'd rather not get a pup there

Zulu

ISDW wrote: »

Do you vaccinate your dogs? If you do, why do you? Why don't you just let them take their chance that they won't develop a life threatening illness?

Sorry, but thats <snip> stupid. Of course I vaccinate.

Tell me, if you chose to have children, would you screen yourself for every illness beforehand? And if not, why not? Surely you'd want to make sure you had a healthy child. And after they were born would you protect then from illness? Why wouldn't you just let them take their chance...

I'm not attacking you... ...to me, trying to buy a healthy pup, and keeping a dog healthy for its life are the same thing, so interested in why people would see it as being different, if they do.

And of course the unwritten comment is that I didn't buy a "healthy" pup :rolleyes:


Look I came here to make a point: if you buy from a byb there is an extremely strong chance you won't run into any problems. It's not as bad as some people would have you believe. That said buyer beware. If people can't accept that point fair enough, so be it.

andreac

GT_TDI_150 wrote: »

Boy-o-boy ... didn't mean to stir up this much emotion

I truly don't know what we will do ... I'll prob be contacting the bf club secretary guy to get some names of breeders after xmas. And start laying the ground works, its all about contacts i suppose. Hopefully i can establish when there is litters expected and at what price.

Would it be cheaky to bargain on the price? And thats not me saying im not willing to pay for quality, just always on the look out for a deal

On a side note, we've had 5dogs at home as far as i can remember. A non-breeder bernese, a breeder bernese, 2 mix 'breeds' and a non-breeder rottie. Out of the 5 the rottie is still young so prob not a fair measure yet but the others all had long healthy lifes apart from... the breed bernese she died from uterus infections, and was prone to them from an early ageBtw, when we went for the rottie we did look at boxers first and nearly purchased but some thing wasn't quite rite onle one of 4 pups looked 100% there the rest looked poor, ones face looked deformed...and we decided not to buy. Even lost deposit as mu y mum only decided when we got home that she'd rather not get a pup there

Was that Pyometra? If so thats preventable by spaying your dog.

andreac

Zulu wrote: »

Sorry, but thats <snip> stupid. Of course I vaccinate.

Tell me, if you chose to have children, would you screen yourself for every illness beforehand? And if not, why not? Surely you'd want to make sure you had a healthy child. And after they were born would you protect then from illness? Why wouldn't you just let them take their chance...

And of course the unwritten comment is that I didn't buy a "healthy" pup :rolleyes:


Look I came here to make a point: if you buy from a byb there is an extremely strong chance you won't run into any problems. It's not as bad as some people would have you believe. That said buyer beware. If people can't accept that point fair enough, so be it.

Sorry bit i strongly disagree. Of all the people i know that bought from byb's, they nearly all have had some problem with their dogs or the breeder, you were obviously one of the very few lucky ones. The majority of people i know that have bought from a certain website have had nothing but trouble with either dealing with the breeder, ie getting papers for the pups etc, or the pups being unhealthy, sick and so on.

Cherry Blossom

Zulu wrote: »

Tell me, if you chose to have children, would you screen yourself for every illness beforehand? And if not, why not? Surely you'd want to make sure you had a healthy child. And after they were born would you protect then from illness? Why wouldn't you just let them take their chance...

Well this thread is getting ridiculous now, but I personally don't know of any strains of people that were deliberately created by constantly breeding with their close relations

<ETA> I lie! I know of an elderly brother and sister whose parents lived as man and wife although they were actually brother and sister themselves, both were blind and severely disabled from birth.

Actually I believe the reason it's illegal to marry your first cousin in this country was exactly for the reasons that so many children were being born with severe disabilities and deformities in remote parts of the country in times gone by, the islands in particular.

Gran Hermano

If I source a pup from a rescue how will I know it didn't start it's life on done deal or similar? Can I ask the rescue to hip score it and such like?

Is the only option to ignore puppy farms, rescues and dodgy breeders on the usual sites and source a pup directly from a breeder who has conducted all the necessary health checks on the parents?

GT_TDI_150

andreac wrote: »

Was that Pyometra? If so thats preventable by spaying your dog.

not sure, my parents dealt with the vets at the time... but if you knew how it affected my mum( it was 'her' dog), if she was told you need to do x to save the dog, she would do have done it. the dogs was at the vet clinic getting operated on, she didnt survive the night though and she passed, the bills were huge, a few thousand sheet

andreac

Pyometra is a uterus infection that happens regularly to some dogs after every season they have.

A lot of people never wanted to neuter or spay their dogs because they wanted to breed them, but people are being advised now to neuter/spay and it reduces the risk of things like Pyometra.

If a bitch suffers from Pyo once, the chances are she will keep on suffering from each time she has a season and the more often she has it, the more serious it is and it can be fatal for a bitch, so it sounds very much like Pyo that she had, but obviously i dont know for def.

ISDW

Zulu wrote: »

Sorry, but thats <snip> stupid. Of course I vaccinate.

Tell me, if you chose to have children, would you screen yourself for every illness beforehand? And if not, why not? Surely you'd want to make sure you had a healthy child. And after they were born would you protect then from illness? Why wouldn't you just let them take their chance...

And of course the unwritten comment is that I didn't buy a "healthy" pup :rolleyes:


Look I came here to make a point: if you buy from a byb there is an extremely strong chance you won't run into any problems. It's not as bad as some people would have you believe. That said buyer beware. If people can't accept that point fair enough, so be it.

Wow, lovely to see that we can have a reasonable discussion about this. I have reported your post, as I would really rather not be sworn at.

Its not obvious at all that you vaccinate, you don't seem to see the need for health testing, so it doesn't necessary follow that you'd agree with vaccinating. I was hoping that you could explain why you would spend money trying to keep your dog healthy when you don't seem to advocate the need to see that parents of any pups born are healthy.

There was no unwritten comment, I was merely trying to discuss something, as this is a discussion forum, my mistake obviously.

BTW, there is a lot of evidence now that annual vaccination is unnecessary and may actually be harmful to dogs so again, not a given that anybody who cares about their animals vaccinates each year.

Cherry Blossom

One person starts swearing and giving abuse and suddenly everyone thinks they can too - please note the first person has been banned for a month.

boomerang

Zulu wrote: »

Sorry, but thats <snip> stupid. Of course I vaccinate.

Tell me, if you chose to have children, would you screen yourself for every illness beforehand? And if not, why not? Surely you'd want to make sure you had a healthy child. And after they were born would you protect then from illness? Why wouldn't you just let them take their chance...

And of course the unwritten comment is that I didn't buy a "healthy" pup :rolleyes:


Look I came here to make a point: if you buy from a byb there is an extremely strong chance you won't run into any problems. It's not as bad as some people would have you believe. That said buyer beware. If people can't accept that point fair enough, so be it.

I take your point, but I think it's very breed dependent. If for instance you buy a Lab or Golden Retriever from untested parents, you probably will run into problems with hip dysplasia, but the dog could be very healthy otherwise.

I wouldn't touch a Bichon without finding out if there is problems with ear infections, luxating patellas or porto-systemic liver shunt in the breeder's lines.

One of the reasons why breed-specific conditions are so prevalent is down to the poor quality of the breeding stock being used.

Personally I would find trying to find a healthy, well-socialised and "ethically bred" puppy such a minefield, I'd much rather take my chances with an adult rescue dog with no history whatsoever!

GT_TDI_150

guys,

in my first post I stated I didnt want to start World war X, I still feel the same, peoples views and comments are helpful to help me understand why I will go the breeder route or not.

Lets keep the conversation going without snapping at each other.:rolleyes:

Zapperzy

Discodog wrote: »

Before you view ask if it is OK for your Vet to check the pup before you buy. The reply will tell you a lot about the seller. Ask for the name of the seller's Vet & call them. Tell the Vet that they will be looking after your new pup - that way they may be more likely to tell the truth.

A vet wouldn't release any info because of confidentiality. I have seen this done once and the vet only gave the caller any info because the breeder rang in advance and told the vet that someone would be calling and gave the ok for the vet to give out information.

Another donedeal story here, I once seen a lab, think it was just over 6 months old and came in very lame, x-rays showed he had no left hip. The top of the femur had literally no socket to fit into, worst case of hip dysplasia I'v seen yet. Right hip was a bit better but not great either. Again bought from donedeal, bought from a nice family who just bred from their pets but done no health checks such as hip scores. Pup was euthanised as owner just didn't have the money to treat him and the pup had no quality of life whatsoever as he was.

My point is that it isin't enough to just go visit the house and look at the sire and dam, (and the breeder owning the sire is a major red light to me as often a breeder doesn't have the right sire to complement his bitch so has to go looking elsewhere), see children playing with pups in the house and get ikc certs. As has already been said ikc certs mean nothing on their own. If I were to look for a purebred pup I wouldn't touch a breeder who doesn't do health tests no matter how nice they seem or how well they do on the show scene, without perfect health test results your just entering a lottery on whether you get a healthy pup or not. At least when you know the parents are healthy your odds at having a healthy pup are much improved.

aisher

We bought our dog from Donedeal and have had no issues with her -she is a cross breed and has made an excellent family pet. I was not interested in getting a pedigree dog with papers and with cross breeds you dont get lists of registered breeders to pick from. I think its a sweeping statement to suggest that all dogs sold on such sites are bound to be sick - you can buy from a 'reputable' breeder and still end up with problems. I prefer cross breeds since they say they dont have the problems of inbreeding, each to their own. If you do go down the donedeal route - use common sense - same as you would buying a pedigree dog with papers.

andreac

aisher wrote: »

We bought our dog from Donedeal and have had no issues with her -she is a cross breed and has made an excellent family pet. I was not interested in getting a pedigree dog with papers and with cross breeds you dont get lists of registered breeders to pick from. I think its a sweeping statement to suggest that all dogs sold on such sites are bound to be sick - you can buy from a 'reputable' breeder and still end up with problems. I prefer cross breeds since they say they dont have the problems of inbreeding, each to their own. If you do go down the donedeal route - use common sense - same as you would buying a pedigree dog with papers.

Hope you didnt pay much money for your cross breed... Most of the cross breeds *for sale on those websites are Designer breeds and crossed
specifically so they sound and look cuter, and will sell easier. You shouldnt intentionally cross 2 breeds and then sell it on, its against IKC rules to do this and its only puppy farmers and byb's that do this intentionally and i wouldnt touch these people if i was you.

These breeds dont always be healthier because they are cross breeds, it can actually be the opposite as the parents are not health tested, so these pups end up with problems that both the sire and dam suffer from.

Cherry Blossom

Really? So there is no possibility that bichon x poodle is not infact the result of a mating between a bichon and a poodle but actually the product of 2 bichon x poodles that were litter-mates? When clearly it has come from a person who probably started off with 2 dogs and is lining their pockets selling 'desirable' cross breeds, they aren't going to be throwing away money buying more dogs to breed from now are they when they have their own unlimited supply.

Discodog

Zapperzy wrote: »

A vet wouldn't release any info because of confidentiality. I have seen this done once and the vet only gave the caller any info because the breeder rang in advance and told the vet that someone would be calling and gave the ok for the vet to give out information.

I was assuming that when you asked the breeder for the name of their Vet that they would agree to release any info. It's more about the breeder's reaction to being asked.

Zapperzy

Discodog wrote: »

I was assuming that when you asked the breeder for the name of their Vet that they would agree to release any info. It's more about the breeder's reaction to being asked.

Ah yes now I see what you mean, nevermind me I'm too tired to understand posts properly at the moment.

john t

I purchased my dog from from an advertiser / seller who uses donedeal as an advertising outlet, you buy from the advertiser not from donedeal, i have not had any problems with my dog and would recomend potential dog buyers too look at the wonderfull animals advertised on donedeal ....