Donedeal and the likes

Zulu

Gran Hermano wrote: »

If I source a pup from a rescue how will I know it didn't start it's life on done deal or similar? Can I ask the rescue to hip score it and such like?

Excellent point. A lot of the very same people who'd advise you avoid byb like the plague are the very same people who'll advise you to rescue a dog from a shelter.

Is the only option to ignore puppy farms, rescues and dodgy breeders on the usual sites and source a pup directly from a breeder who has conducted all the necessary health checks on the parents?

No. Clearly that's preposterous! (Which is the point I'm making) People who love dogs want to see puppy farms closed. In fact, anyone that knows about them wants them closed, except for a few callous individuals that run them for profit with no consideration for the dogs.
It's a causality of that that we get the (probably not intentional) fear-mongering around byb.

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Well this thread is getting ridiculous now...

It got ridiculous around the time an assumption was drawn about not vaccinating your dog because you didn't buy from a dealer. :rolleyes:

andreac wrote: »

Sorry bit i strongly disagree. Of all the people i know ...

That's fair enough andreac, and you've tons of experience - I wouldn't question that. But tell me, of all the people you know who rescued dogs: have they all run into trouble as well? Maybe the advice here should be not to rescue dogs either unless you're prepared for vets bills?

ISDW wrote: »

Wow, lovely to see that we can have a reasonable discussion about this. I have reported your post, as I would really rather not be sworn at.

Report away. And as we are on the topic of our preferences, I'd rather not have assumptions drawn about me, or silly assertions made.

Its not obvious at all that you vaccinate, you don't seem to see the need for health testing,

The point I made was that because health testing MIGHT NOT have taken place, does not equate to automatic health problems. Let me give you an example. Have you been tested for cancer today? If not, do you have it?
You made the incorrect assertion that I don't see a need for health testing.

I was hoping that you could explain why you would spend money trying to keep your dog healthy

This is the problem I have with you & your post. Reread what you just posted. Do you have a dog? How would you feel if I levelled that comment at you? And then snidely comment on having a "reasonable discussion". The cheek. :mad:

I spend money on keeping Chloe healthy because I love her. Here's her picture seeing as we're discussing her:

I wouldn't see any harm come to her, and no cost would be too great if she were ill, hence we have insurance.

when you don't seem to advocate the need to see that parents of any pups born are healthy.

I don't like your poor logical leap that because I got her from an amateur breeder I didn't care about her heritage. You are taking comment I am making "in general" and applying them to the specific. And you are wrong to do so.
Take a step back and discuss the "general" point I'm making: that because parents aren't health screened does not mean the litter they produce is going to be riddled with issues, and we can have a reasonalbe conversation.

Apply that general comment to the specific instance of me getting Chloe - a situation you know very little about, and make assertions/assumptions??? well that not very reasonable now, is it?

ISDW

Zulu wrote: »

Excellent point. A lot of the very same people who'd advise you avoid byb like the plague are the very same people who'll advise you to rescue a dog from a shelter.

No. Clearly that's preposterous! (Which is the point I'm making) People who love dogs want to see puppy farms closed. In fact, anyone that knows about them wants them closed, except for a few callous individuals that run them for profit with no consideration for the dogs.
It's a causality of that that we get the (probably not intentional) fear-mongering around byb.

It got ridiculous around the time an assumption was drawn about not vaccinating your dog because you didn't buy from a dealer. :rolleyes:

That's fair enough andreac, and you've tons of experience - I wouldn't question that. But tell me, of all the people you know who rescued dogs: have they all run into trouble as well? Maybe the advice here should be not to rescue dogs either unless you're prepared for vets bills?

Report away. And as we are on the topic of our preferences, I'd rather not have assumptions drawn about me, or silly assertions made.

The point I made was that because health testing MIGHT NOT have taken place, does not equate to automatic health problems. Let me give you an example. Have you been tested for cancer today? If not, do you have it?
You made the incorrect assertion that I don't see a need for health testing.

This is the problem I have with you & your post. Reread what you just posted. Do you have a dog? How would you feel if I levelled that comment at you? And then snidely comment on having a "reasonable discussion". The cheek. :mad:

I spend money on keeping Chloe healthy because I love her. Here's her picture seeing as we're discussing her:

I wouldn't see any harm come to her, and no cost would be too great if she were ill, hence we have insurance.

I don't like your poor logical leap that because I got her from an amateur breeder I didn't care about her heritage. You are taking comment I am making "in general" and applying them to the specific. And you are wrong to do so.
Take a step back and discuss the "general" point I'm making: that because parents aren't health screened does not mean the litter they produce is going to be riddled with issues, and we can have a reasonalbe conversation.

Apply that general comment to the specific instance of me getting Chloe - a situation you know very little about, and make assertions/assumptions??? well that not very reasonable now, is it?

An 'amateur' breeder, thats an unusal term. I was going to breed my first two huskies, I have never shown them, but I got them both hip scored, one was so bad that I got the pair of them neutered. So I guess I would be classed as an amateur, but it didn't stop me doing the right thing for the health of any puppies that might be born.

I am not making any specific comments, I was hoping that we could have a discussion about the difference between buying a healthy pup and keeping a dog healthy for its life. Its you that keeps bringing your own dog into it. So, in general, please explain why anybody would want to buy a dog that is from a breed with certain genetic health issues, but doesn't see the need for health testing for those issues. But yet will vaccinate the dog for its life against other health issues, this is not about you, but a general question, and as it is you that is advocating this, I am interested in your opinion.

I don't understand why you keep trying to bring human health into a discussion about dogs. I treat my dogs and my children very differently. But, as you do, and you seem to want to make this discussion very personal actually, yes, I do have a genetic medical issue within my family so, if you really want to go down that road, yes, more tests should be done, and decisions made, so that maybe we wouldn't be going through what we are at the moment.

Zulu

ISDW wrote: »

So, in general, please explain why anybody would want to buy a dog that is from a breed with certain genetic health issues, but doesn't see the need for health testing for those issues.

Because they understand being predisposed to genetic health issues does not equate to actual having health issues.

But yet will vaccinate the dog for its life against other health issues

Once someone owns a dog, for better or worse, they may choose to vaccinate or not. I'm guessing those that do follow their vets advice.

and as it is you that is advocating this, I am interested in your opinion.

Perhaps "advocating" is a little strong. I'm simply pointing out that there's scare-mongering going on; that buying from a byb isn't necessarily a disaster; buying from a byb doesn't automatically mean you'll have health issues.

I don't understand why you keep trying to bring human health into a discussion about dogs.

I'm drawing examples to help clarify; making comparisons. That's how explainations work.

andreac

Zulu, buying a Pedigree dog from a breeder and rescuing a dog are two very different things and im not comparing the 2 and never have

What im saying is, if you choose to go down the route of buying a pedigree dog, then you must ensure you are getting a healthy puppy from a reputable breeder who health tests. You are paying for this dog, a rescue dog is completely different as you dont know what you are getting, the history of the dog, parents etc, so absolutely cant compare rescuing to buying.

Discodog

Zulu wrote: »

Excellent point. A lot of the very same people who'd advise you avoid byb like the plague are the very same people who'll advise you to rescue a dog from a shelter.

Rescue dogs will usually be checked by a Vet before rehoming. The dog will also of spent some time with knowledgeable people who are alert to health issues. The last thing that the rescue want is for someone to be returning a dog.

john t wrote: »

I purchased my dog from from an advertiser / seller who uses donedeal as an advertising outlet, you buy from the advertiser not from donedeal, i have not had any problems with my dog and would recomend potential dog buyers too look at the wonderfull animals advertised on donedeal ....

So you would base your judgement on the one dog that you purchased ? Of course there are some good dogs but the suggestion that there are loads of wonderful animals is totally over the top. For your one good dog there are lots that turn out to be a problem.

The fact remains that recognised breeders don't advertise & that you take a greater chance if you buy a dog from someone that you do not know or haven't researched.

The thousands of puppy farm puppies have to go somewhere. They cannot all be exported. When so much money is involved & especially in a recession people will go to great lengths to conceal the origin of a puppy. No one is going to put "puppy farm" in an advert. The farmers know that a buyer will want to see the puppy being sold from a nice home by seemingly nice people.

At the end of the day stopping the demand for puppies will close down the puppy farms far more quickly than any law.

Zulu

Fair enough, but you're avoiding my question: have all the people you know who've rescued dogs run into health issues with those dogs?

I suspect that the answer will be "no".

Again, I'm only pointing out that healthy puppys are available outside the sphere of breeders.

It's a fair point & I'm stunned at the amount of resistance to it.

andreac

Zulu wrote: »

Fair enough, but you're avoiding my question: have all the people you know who've rescued dogs run into health issues with those dogs?

I suspect that the answer will be "no".

Again, I'm only pointing out that healthy puppys are available outside the sphere of breeders.

It's a fair point & I'm stunned at the amount of resistance to it.

Im not avoiding the question, but i dont know if they did, but as i said, im not comparing the 2 as its very different.
We are trying to say that if you are actively seeking a pedigree dog from a breeder then you should ensure they have all the relative health tests done.

Zulu

andreac wrote: »

We are trying to say that if you are actively seeking a pedigree dog from a breeder then you should ensure they have all the relative health tests done.

Nothing wrong with that.

And what I'm saying is:

If you buy from an amature breeder/byb it doesn't automatically mean you'll have health problems futher down the line.

andreac

Zulu wrote: »

Nothing wrong with that.

And what I'm saying is:

If you buy from an amature breeder/byb it doesn't automatically mean you'll have health problems futher down the line.

But the chances are very high the dog will or could be sick, and why should you support these type of breeders anyway, as they only have one motive when breeding and thats to make money, not to breed healthy, quality dogs so i would never support or recommend to buy from these type of people.

Zulu

andreac wrote: »

But the chances are very high the dog will or could be sick

...depending on the breeder, depending on the sire/dam, depending, depending... You can't say with definate authority that the "chances are very high". Certainly, you are more exposed to the risk.

and why should you support these type of breeders anyway, as they only have one motive when breeding and thats to make money, not to breed healthy, quality dogs

Well thats unfair. Do breeders give away their pups for free? No. And I wouldn't expect them to. It's not fair to over simplify. It's not fair to assume that ALL byb are the same as puppy farmers, or that they don't care for the health of the animals. SOME do have health checks for eample, SOME do care.

so i would never support or recommend to buy from these type of people.

That's fine. I've no problem with that. I do have a little concern for all the scare-mongoring that goes on. It's not helpful to those starting out. And I think it can be counter-productive. All people want is honest advice.

andreac

Its not scaremongering, far from it. Ive seen the results several times over of pups and dogs that were bought from byb's and puppy farmers so why would i or any of us here that are experienced recommend these type of people when we know the consequences of buying these type of dogs??

Of course the chances are much higher if you breed unhealthy, bad quality dogs, how could it not be?? Wouldnt you want to try and reduce that possible risk of your dog getting sick but going with a good breeder who tries all they can to ensure the chances are much lower or eliminated by health testing?, i certainly would, for the dogs sake.

If these so called breeders cared then they wouldnt breed in the first place, they would neuter their dogs and stop contributing to the huge problem we have in this country of dogs and puppies in rescue centres, and producing dogs that go on to suffer from hip dysplacia and so on.
The some that you mention that health check are then not byb's or puppy farmers, they are trying to do the right thing and have the pups welfare at heart so they are not the same.

No, a good breeder doesnt give a dog away, it covers the costs they incurred of breeding a healthy, health tested litter, and it doesnt come cheap.

Zulu

andreac wrote: »

Of course the chances are much higher if you breed unhealthy, bad quality dogs, how could it not be??

This is scaremongering. Not all litters are the product of "unhealthy, bad quality dogs".

For the record, I agree with that statment completly, who wouldn't. What I don't agree with is the position that all litters from byb are "unhealthy, bad quality dogs".

It's possible to get a good dog from a byb, I have one.

deisedave

andreac wrote: »

Its not scaremongering, far from it. Ive seen the results several times over of pups and dogs that were bought from byb's and puppy farmers so why would i or any of us here that are experienced recommend these type of people when we know the consequences of buying these type of dogs??

Of course the chances are much higher if you breed unhealthy, bad quality dogs, how could it not be?? Wouldnt you want to try and reduce that possible risk of your dog getting sick but going with a good breeder who tries all they can to ensure the chances are much lower or eliminated by health testing?, i certainly would, for the dogs sake.

If these so called breeders cared then they wouldnt breed in the first place, they would neuter their dogs and stop contributing to the huge problem we have in this country of dogs and puppies in rescue centres, and producing dogs that go on to suffer from hip dysplacia and so on.
The some that you mention that health check are then not byb's or puppy farmers, they are trying to do the right thing and have the pups welfare at heart so they are not the same.

No, a good breeder doesnt give a dog away, it covers the costs they incurred of breeding a healthy, health tested litter, and it doesnt come cheap.

While there is some truth in what you say, you are a total scare mongerer.
Yes dogs bought from a experienced breeder will have a better chance of being healthy, also a dog bought from someone who does not know what they are doing as long as the vet is involved is ok as well.

andreac

Zulu wrote: »

This is scaremongering. Not all litters are the product of "unhealthy, bad quality dogs".

For the record, I agree with that statment completly, who wouldn't. What I don't agree with is the position that all litters from byb are "unhealthy, bad quality dogs".

It's possible to get a good dog from a byb, I have one.

Of course, anything is possible. I never said all litters. Its not scaremongering, its reality, end of.

If the op wants to go ahead and buy from a byb or puppy farmer then go ahead., i give up...

Red Harvest

Another happy Donedeal buyer!

What is someone supposed to do when they have 11 pups from an unintentional mating? Donedeal probably has the biggest circulation so for many in that situation an obvious place to advertise.

But of course its buyer beware, if you don't like the look of anything then walk away before you even see the pups.

We've always had cross breeds from unintentional matings and never had health issues due to breeding.

Zulu

andreac wrote: »

Of course, anything is possible. I never said all litters. Its not scaremongering, its reality, end of.

I'm sorry andreac, but the impression given here is that byb=puppy farmer=unhealthy puppy. All I've ever said is that that isn't entirely true.

If the op wants to go ahead and buy from a byb or puppy farmer then go ahead., i give up...

I think it's unanimous that the OP shouldn't buy from a puppy farmer!

andreac

Red Harvest wrote: »

Another happy Donedeal buyer!

What is someone supposed to do when they have 11 pups from an unintentional mating? Donedeal probably has the biggest circulation so for many in that situation an obvious place to advertise.

But of course its buyer beware, if you don't like the look of anything then walk away before you even see the pups.

We've always had cross breeds from unintentional matings and never had health issues due to breeding.

If you have had several unplanned matings, would you not think to neuter some of your dogs or take better care so it doesnt happen?

It can happen once, but happening several times is being irresponsible as an owner.

lrushe

Zulu I take your point that not every dog bought off Donedeal will end up with health issues but the one time you do end up with a sick dog ( and odds are you will) you'll understand why health testing is so important. The life long agony a dog with hip or elbow dysplasia go through is not worth taking the risk imo.
You wouldn't cross the road without looking left & right, chances are you'd make it to the other side ok without doing that but you greatly stack the odds in your favour by taking a precautionary measure just like health testing.

Red Harvest

andreac wrote: »

If you have had several unplanned matings, would you not think to neuter some of your dogs or take better care so it doesnt happen?

It can happen once, but happening several times is being irresponsible as an owner.

Sorry where did I say that any of our dogs weren't neutered or that we had pups for sale from unintentional matings?

Try reading a post without looking for something to attack.

andreac

Red Harvest wrote: »

Another happy Donedeal buyer!

What is someone supposed to do when they have 11 pups from an unintentional mating? Donedeal probably has the biggest circulation so for many in that situation an obvious place to advertise.

But of course its buyer beware, if you don't like the look of anything then walk away before you even see the pups.

We've always had cross breeds from unintentional matings and never had health issues due to breeding.

Ok, as Cos pointed out, might have picked you up wrong on that one, my apologies.

cos!!

I think he meant he always kept cross breeds?

Nelson Muntz

Discodog wrote: »

If you do decide to answer an advert then do the unexpected like arriving an hour early for your viewing appointment - just say that you misheard the time. That way you will know if the pups were "cleaned up" for your visit. Take a good look & see if the sellers phone number appears anywhere else - maybe try googling it.

Before you view ask if it is OK for your Vet to check the pup before you buy. The reply will tell you a lot about the seller. Ask for the name of the seller's Vet & call them. Tell the Vet that they will be looking after your new pup - that way they may be more likely to tell the truth.

I would even apply the same rules to the recognised breeder. Some may take exception to you questioning their authenticity - if they do then walk away.

lrushe wrote: »

If you can go onto Donedeal & find a breeder who:
1. Showed / worked his/her dog to the highest level to prove they were suitable for breeding.
2. Waited until the dam was of breeding age.
3. Preformed all of the health testing associated with that breed - with certs to prove it.
4. Choose a sire who complemented his bitch & was similarly health tested.
5. Vacc'd, registered, chipped & socialised all the pups.
And if this breeder was selling them for €250 I'd tell you to bite their hand off but the truth is you won't find this because it's just not feasable to produce a healthy, well bred puppy for this, the stud fee alone could be more than twice this.
The notion of the nice family who just bred one litter from their beloved Fluffy & their kids play with them everyday by the kitchen fire is nice one but without proving that Fluffy is suitable to breed from & free from genetic illness then they are just as guilty as any puppy farmer of churning out potentional sick animals & adding to the problems that alot of pedigree dogs now have.

Would it make sense to sticky advice like this? It would be useful to provide this info to people that are considering buying a dog but don't necessarily want to start a thread or have a debate about it.

andreac

There is a sticky already about puppy farmers etc.

Nelson Muntz

andreac wrote: »

There is a sticky already about puppy farmers etc.

Sorry, you are correct. I didn't see it in that sticky thread originally

aisher

andreac wrote: »

Hope you didnt pay much money for your cross breed... Most of the cross breeds *for sale on those websites are Designer breeds and crossed
specifically so they sound and look cuter, and will sell easier. You shouldnt intentionally cross 2 breeds and then sell it on, its against IKC rules to do this and its only puppy farmers and byb's that do this intentionally and i wouldnt touch these people if i was you.

These breeds dont always be healthier because they are cross breeds, it can actually be the opposite as the parents are not health tested, so these pups end up with problems that both the sire and dam suffer from.

Cross breeds have always existed and I dont see what your problem is with them - Labrodoodles are one example of a cross breed that has been a great success since they shed less hair but still have the characteristics of the retriever that make them good dogs for the blind. Why cant a dog be crossed with another or do all dogs have to be pedigree? You seem to think that only puppy farmers and back yard breeders cross breed dogs. The IKC dont recognise cross breeds so what rules are you referring to? Not all breeders health test their dogs before they let them breed and this goes for cross breeders and pedigree dogs - you seem to think only 'designer' dogs fall into this category.

offline

Maybe the problem is the rather generalized statements of both sides of the argument . There is never only black or white in real live but shades of gray .
Sure we all wish that all dogs and their offspring are from an perfectly healthy gene pool and all future illnesses are therefore eliminated , but that is not reality . Neither is that any dog that never had health tests is automatically going to be desperately ill and so will their offspring .

Maybe the solution should be that all the experienced and passionate breeders change what is going wrong .
Approach the IKC to bring in change . Adapt tested and proofen methods that are years in operation in other countries . I do not believe there is any reputable society where you can register a litter of pups the way you can here , maybe with the exception of the UK , which is working on improving their current system .
In many countries you have to pass a test before you are even allowed to become a breeder . All dogs intended to be bred from have to pass and be graded by an expert panel to qualify to be bred from , have to have all required health test up to date with acceptable results .
To register a litter an experienced person from the relevant breed club comes to the premises where the pups are bred and raised , filling in all the required paperwork , examining the pups and their mother . There is no cheating with exchanged paperwork as all dogs are permanently identified by whatever means tattoo or microchip etc .
If a system like this was implemented then , and only then , the statement only to buy IKC registered pups has any merit .. right now their paperwork is no better that any of the ' societies ' in my humble opinion .

andreac

aisher wrote: »

Cross breeds have always existed and I dont see what your problem is with them - Labrodoodles are one example of a cross breed that has been a great success since they shed less hair but still have the characteristics of the retriever that make them good dogs for the blind. Why cant a dog be crossed with another or do all dogs have to be pedigree? You seem to think that only puppy farmers and back yard breeders cross breed dogs. The IKC dont recognise cross breeds so what rules are you referring to? Not all breeders health test their dogs before they let them breed and this goes for cross breeders and pedigree dogs - you seem to think only 'designer' dogs fall into this category.

I have absolutely no problem with cross breeds, what i have a problem with is people doing it intentionally and charging a fortune for them when they are cross breeds and there are hundreds and thousands free in the rescues and pounds.
People who breed these designer breeds do it solely for money and have no consideration for the welfare of the dogs or puppies. Ive discussed this several times before so im not going to go over the whole issue again.

If you did your research, you will find that the person who started off the Labradoodle is actually very sorry he did as it just turned into a major problem with people jumping on the bandwagon and breeding all these ridiculous dogs with silly names.

The Labradoodle was bred for a specific purpose, all these Cavachons, Weechons etc are done to make a quick buck, nothing more.

All dogs dont have to be pedigree, but if people were more responsible with their pedigree dogs and breeding, then there wouldnt be all the cross breeds out there in the first place.

Its against IKC rules to intentionally cross 2 different breeds of dogs, so people shouldnt be doing it, thats what i mean.

Sorry, but it is only byb's and puppy farmers that cross breed dogs intentionally, no reputable breeder would do this.

ppink

Zulu wrote: »

It's possible to get a good dog from a byb, I have one.

that does not say what life her mother lives though does it?

Latatian

andreac wrote: »

People who breed these designer breeds...

Its against IKC rules to intentionally cross 2 different breeds of dogs, so people shouldnt be doing it, thats what i mean.

Sorry, but it is only byb's and puppy farmers that cross breed dogs intentionally, no reputable breeder would do this.

Slightly off-topic, but I think there's a bit of a distinction to be drawn between ordinary cross-bred dogs (accidents), designer breeds, and cross-bred dogs for other purposes. I'm as against designer breeds as the next person, but we need to do careful outcrossing of breeds occasionally to prevent the whole "Hapsburg lip" situation (and decreased fertility etc); or at least we will eventually need to do this if we don't want to lose certain breeds.

I'd also say that an ethically cross-bred dog for a purpose (as you see with working dogs) or a well-bred dog from a landrace rather than a breed, isn't necessarily more poorly-bred than a dog from a reputable breeder. Nor is a cross like that any worse ethically than the reputable breeder's cross, provided the health testing has been done, temperaments looked at, ability and health taken into account etc.

Donedeal- you do occasionally see overwhelmed people giving up puppies which are a bit older, but it's hard to tell how many of these are genuine and how many are puppy farmers trying to get rid of an older pup on the cheap. When it's a young collie "free now, needs room to run" it's generally pretty obvious.

Zulu

ppink wrote: »

that does not say what life her mother lives though does it?

Exactly! It does not. Exactly my point.