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Donedeal and the likes

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    #122
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,862 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Well I have just met a classic & rather funny example of what can go wrong.
    I saw a woman walking a Foxhound - a pretty rare site. I couldn't resist asking about him. He came from Donedeal & he was advertised as a Beagle puppy :D.

    They bought him at 8 weeks & his parents, or at least the adults that were with him, were definitely Beagles. As he grew & grew, the owners & their Vet started to wonder. Needless to say the seller had disappeared & of course his papers were fake !


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    #123
    Hellrazer
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,617 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hellrazer


    andreac wrote: »

    All dogs dont have to be pedigree, but if people were more responsible with their pedigree dogs and breeding, then there wouldnt be all the cross breeds out there in the first place.


    Couldnt have said it better.
    Its against IKC rules to intentionally cross 2 different breeds of dogs, so people shouldnt be doing it, thats what i mean.

    The IKC are the most useless shower that Ive ver had the pleasure to deal with.They have no teeth and in my honest opinion should be replaced with an organisation that would actually sanction breeders for this exact rule breach.I have reported so called registered breeders on more than one occasion and not one thing has been done about them.

    Sorry, but it is only byb's and puppy farmers that cross breed dogs intentionally, no reputable breeder would do this.

    Whil I agree with the sentiment until there are repercussions for breeders that break the IKC rules then nothing will change.

    I dont always agree with your posts Andrea but in this case Im in complete agreement.
    You know my sentiments on designer breeds--Im not 100% against them but Im not 100% for rescue either but I am 100% for the animals welfare whether that be a reputable breeder or a so called byb.Ive known so called "byb" mainly in rural areas that will breed their own dogs and believe me the ones I know keep their animals in top condition even better than so called "reputable" breeders.


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    #124
    lrushe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭lrushe


    Hellrazer wrote: »
    Ive known so called "byb" mainly in rural areas that will breed their own dogs and believe me the ones I know keep their animals in top condition even better than so called "reputable" breeders.

    Do they health test their dogs before breeding? Or at the very least work their dogs regularly? If they do then they are not bybs. I also know people in rural areas who breed their own dogs because they want them for specific purposes, the parent dogs would work everyday and any genetic weakness would soon show up and these dogs would never be used so the issues which would effect more urban dogs with a more sedate lifestyle wouldn't be as much of a problem.

    If they don't health test or work their dogs then the condition they keep their dogs in is irrelevant (for the purposes of breeding) as they are still doing their dogs (and the people who buy them) a disservice. People need to get away from the idea all bybs and puppy farmers keep their dogs in horrible conditions, some are merely misguided in the way they approach breeding however the outcomes can still be the same.


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    #125
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,862 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    I agree with Irushe in that some people will breed out of a misguided notion that it is good to let a bitch have puppies or because they don't believe in Canine contraception.
    Hellrazer wrote: »
    The IKC are the most useless shower that Ive ver had the pleasure to deal with.They have no teeth and in my honest opinion should be replaced with an organisation that would actually sanction breeders for this exact rule breach.I have reported so called registered breeders on more than one occasion and not one thing has been done about them.

    Whil I agree with the sentiment until there are repercussions for breeders that break the IKC rules then nothing will change.

    This is getting worrying. Hellrazer is agreeing with Andrea & now I am sort of agreeing with Hellrazer.

    You only have to look at the KC in England, which has far more advanced welfare laws, to see that nothing will change. The brilliant Jemima Harrison who did Pedigree Dogs Exposed has encountered all sorts of grief with the KC - google her blog as some of it is like a spy movie !

    They have an "Assured Breeder Scheme" where breeders are supposed to be inspected yet very few have been. People need to remember that there is a lot of money involved. Both the UK & IKC are like an old boys network, they hate interference. They want to police themselves with a quiet word over a Gin & Tonic.

    They also have powerful friends as proved by the campaign to stop the first PDE program & any follow ups. It's got so bizarre that, I believe, Jemima has resorted to wearing a disguise !


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    #126
    Hellrazer
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,617 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hellrazer


    lrushe wrote: »
    Do they health test their dogs before breeding? Or at the very least work their dogs regularly?

    They do actually-Maybe not health testing but definately worked.

    And these people HAVE been openly called byb` s on more than one occasion by people who wanted dogs from them.


    So are you saying that you wouldnt class them as back yard breeders??


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    #127
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Hellrazer wrote: »
    They do actually-Maybe not health testing but definately worked.

    And these people HAVE been openly called byb` s on more than one occasion by people who wanted dogs from them.

    So are you saying that you wouldnt class them as back yard breeders??
    my dog came from this sort of byb - she's from working stock.
    I was working under the assumption that they were still classed as byb!


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    #128
    DBB
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,740 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    Discodog wrote: »
    They bought him at 8 weeks & his parents, or at least the adults that were with him, were definitely Beagles. As he grew & grew, the owners & their Vet started to wonder. Needless to say the seller had disappeared & of course his papers were fake !

    I have come across many an example of this too, people buying online purebred dogs turned out not to be what the buyer thought they were buying, there are even examples on this forum! Oh, and that age-old and oft-told story I hear... "The breeder was meant to send me on the papers, but I never got them":rolleyes:
    lrushe wrote: »
    If they don't health test or work their dogs then the condition they keep their dogs in is irrelevant (for the purposes of breeding) as they are still doing their dogs (and the people who buy them) a disservice. People need to get away from the idea all bybs and puppy farmers keep their dogs in horrible conditions, some are merely misguided in the way they approach breeding however the outcomes can still be the same.

    I think this is one of the most accurate posts I've seen in relation to the whole issue of BYBs. I think it's fair to say that puppy farms, by their very nature, entail serious welfare problems for the dogs within them, even if the breeder keeps the place clean. I think it's amongst BYBs that we'll find the greatest range from reasonably good welfare conditions, to absolutely awful welfare conditions.
    Whilst it might seem less harmful for someone to buy a pup from one of the better BYBs, there is always the insurmountable problem that these breeders are not health testing or striving to breed away from health problems. This is what separates the better BYBs from the reputable breeders.
    I deal with hundreds of purebred dogs every year, via my rescue, and via my dog training work, so I have a whole load of experience dealing with dogs which came from the various different sources.
    I can say from this diverse anecdotal evidence, that the proportion of health problems in the BYB and puppy-farmed dogs is hugely higher than in dogs I see that came from breeders who do health testing and health-conscious breeding.
    In fact, I would say that most (purebred) dogs I deal with came from BYBs and puppy farms.. such is the state of dog buying in Ireland. I am trying to think of one single exception but right now can't, but I'm pretty sure that every single dog that was sourced from BYBs/puppy farms had something wrong with it, either health-wise or behaviourally, to a greater or lesser extent.
    Shih tsus don't get hip dysplasia, yet in the past couple of weeks alone I have met or heard of 3 of them with a confirmed diagnosis of this condition. I meet Westie after Westie with their fine repertoire of health problems (I have spoken to a number of their BYbreeders, and they were not aware that some of these conditons even existed, let alone breeding away from them. Not that my words made any difference.. they're still breeding from the same broodstock €€€).
    Speaking of crossbreeds, I know several Labradoodles that have been PTS or are having to undergo surgery because of hip dysplasia.
    I have dealt with a number of "designer crossbreeds" with serious temperament problems. I've dealt with two Labrador pups that were PTS before FIFTEEN weeks of age due to serious, serious aggression issues. FIFTEEN weeks old! Labradors?!:eek:
    And yet, and yet, the vast majority who source their dogs from a reputable source have few, if any problems with them. In fact, I would say that the quality shines through.. you can spot a nicely bred and reared dog a mile away, not just in the way he looks, but in the way he behaves.
    From my experience with hundreds of examples, the maths adds up. Whilst people will always try to prove me wrong with their occasional exceptions, that's all they are... exceptions. I personally wouldn't like to play Russian Roulette with an animal who is going to be such a big part of my life for quite a while to come.


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    #129
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,862 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Do we really want to start categorising breeders with terms like Back Yard ? Surely there are only two types of breeder - responsible & irresponsible.
    There will obviously be degrees of responsibility.

    At the end of the day one could produce a checklist of all the desirable checks & balances when buying a puppy. It should even be possible to grade the possible effects of not satisfying each criteria.

    Buying any dog will involve an element of risk. Rather than scaremongering it is more about reducing your risk of getting a problem. But human nature tends to minimise risks - it won't happen to me. This is made worse by the desire for a particular breed, at the right price & without having to wait.

    Once the buyer sees a pup then all reason goes out of the window & we try to put any risk out of our minds. The breeders know this. Also people are reluctant to query or complain. They don't want to appear stupid & will tend to believe who they think is a knowledgeable breeder.

    At the end of the day some people will decide today that they want a pedigree breed & will want to buy one tomorrow. That's why there are puppies on websites. As long as there is a demand people will breed to supply it.

    It might not be a nice thought but the Puppy Farms that everyone wants to see stopped would not exist if it were not for impulsive, breed specific, so called animal lovers.


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    #130
    lrushe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭lrushe


    Hellrazer wrote: »
    They do actually-Maybe not health testing but definately worked.

    And these people HAVE been openly called byb` s on more than one occasion by people who wanted dogs from them.


    So are you saying that you wouldnt class them as back yard breeders??

    I wouldn't so long as they are honest with themselves about their dogs abilities ie. they see one of their dogs aren't up to scratch for the work intended so never breed from it.
    Before dogs became so sedate in lifestyle there was no need for health testing, if a dog couldn't do the task it was bred for it just wouldn't have been kept let alone bred from so I think regularly working a dog can be as good as health testing, however relying on just working a dog can as I've said above depends on human honesty which isn't always dependable (harder to produce a cert for work like it is for health testing).


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    #131
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,862 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    How can we expect Back Yard Breeders to health check when they see that some championship winning breeders don't bother ?

    From Pedigree Dog Exposed:

    Breeder Margaret Carter also took up the issue after her own dogs were diagnosed with the condition, and she is lobbying for change as part of the Breed Club's health committee.

     A Cavalier that won a Best-in-Show was revealed by Carter to have the condition. (One and a half months after the programme aired, Carter was removed from the Cavalier Club Committee for this "breach of confidentiality".) Despite veterinarian advice not to breed from the dog, the dog went on to sire 26 litters, adding to the 8 litters sired before the diagnosis. Dr. Claire Rusbridge expressed her incredulity: "If you took a stick and you beat a dog to create this pain that you could get from Syringomyelia, you'd be prosecuted, but there's nothing to stop you from breeding a dog that can be painful."

    So a breeder who tried to implement change was removed from the Cavalier Club because she was seen as a trouble maker. Meanwhile there are 26 litters of Cavalier pups out there that should never of been bred.


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    #132
    lrushe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭lrushe


    Discodog wrote: »
    How can we expect Back Yard Breeders to health check when they see that some championship winning breeders don't bother ?

    The short answer is people power. If people demanded pups from health tested parents all breeders would have to comply or risk being left with a large portion of each litter they breed.
    I would estimate that about 3/4 of each litter a championship winning breeder breeds will be sold into pet homes so even championship winning breeder rely on the average joe buying their 'excess' pups in order to produce their next champion, that's a great amount of power in the average persons hands.


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    #133
    portgirl123
    Registered Users Posts: 657 ✭✭✭portgirl123


    this thread has just confused me so much. one minute ikc is the only ones to buy dogs of. the next their getting slayed. So who do you buy dogs of?


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    #134
    lrushe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭lrushe


    portgirl123 wrote: »
    this thread has just confused me so much. one minute ikc is the only ones to buy dogs of. the next their getting slayed. So who do you buy dogs of?

    You don't buy your dog off the IKC. The IKC are merely a registery agency. IKC registration is only one of a number of boxes to tick for me, not just because the dog is registered but also because the breeder could be bothered to take the time and effort to register it.
    I think of the IKC like the log book for a car, it can tell you the make, model and age of the car but it can't tell you how good that car is. So while you wouldn't rely on just the log book alone as a guantee when buying a car neither should you rely on IKC registration alone when buying a dog.


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    #135
    andreac
    Registered Users Posts: 8,000 ✭✭✭andreac


    portgirl123 wrote: »
    this thread has just confused me so much. one minute ikc is the only ones to buy dogs of. the next their getting slayed. So who do you buy dogs of?

    You dont buy a dog from the IKC, they are only the registration body to register dogs.


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    #136
    andreac
    Registered Users Posts: 8,000 ✭✭✭andreac


    Irushe, you have a great way of explaining things, its brilliant!! :)


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    #137
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,862 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    lrushe wrote: »
    The short answer is people power. If people demanded pups from health tested parents all breeders would

    True but depressingly we have already ascertained that the majority of buyers don't care because they don't think that it will happen to them. It's a bit like removing the law & then asking people not to drink & drive.

    Also Vet certs are as easy to fake as Pedigrees & who says that every Vet will be totally ethical when money is involved. My friends spent a fortune on a Newfie pup that had been Vet checked yet a few weeks later my Vet discovered a fatal heart condition - the puppy has since died. Did the Vet check really happen or did the Vet miss the defect ?

    The really scary part is that AFAIK the Cavalier Breeder who ignored the Vet is still breeding & showing. The KC could not or did not apply any sanction whatsoever neither did the Cavalier Club who seem to be solidly behind the breeder.

    An obvious answer would be for all Vets to refuse to microchip without health screening but even that wouldn't prevent the Cavalier example where the owner did screen & then chose to ignore the result.
    portgirl123 wrote: »
    this thread has just confused me so much. one minute ikc is the only ones to buy dogs of. the next their getting slayed. So who do you buy dogs of?

    Simple use your "people power" & don't buy a pedigree dog. If everyone did this we would eliminate Puppy Farms & bad breeders with a few years.
    If you really must have a particular breed then find one in a rescue.


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    #138
    Red Harvest
    Closed Accounts Posts: 263 ✭✭Red Harvest


    lrushe wrote: »
    The short answer is people power. If people demanded pups from health tested parents all breeders would have to comply or risk being left with a large portion of each litter they breed.
    I would estimate that about 3/4 of each litter a championship winning breeder breeds will be sold into pet homes so even championship winning breeder rely on the average joe buying their 'excess' pups in order to produce their next champion, that's a great amount of power in the average persons hands.

    And just what sort of power over anything does average joe have after seeing a basket full of cute puppies :rolleyes:.


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    #139
    DBB
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,740 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    lrushe wrote: »
    The short answer is people power. If people demanded pups from health tested parents all breeders would have to comply or risk being left with a large portion of each litter they breed.

    Amen to that!
    Ian Dunbar, founder of APDT US and great dog and puppy behaviourist, as trying to start a campaign where owners-to-be also demand that breeders socialise their pups properly, that they'd have their pups introduced to plenty of new experiences and be very used to living in a human world, because such pups are just so much nicer and trouble-free as adults.
    So I'd like to throw that into the mix. Breeders should have their pups spending a good portion of their day inside the house, doing pet dog stuff, learning some early boundaries, and getting the hosuetraining started. It makes a HUGE difference!

    To anyone who might be buying a pup, pups that are used to being inside will be confident and playful within the house, rooting in everything, and never cowering from the approach of a human or being unduly perturbed by the arrival of visitors, or loud noises. Pups that have only been bought inside for your visit (i.e. reared outside in a shed) will seem shell-shocked in the house, and wary of things that humans do in the house as a matter of course. I see lots of frightened little faces in many photos of pups taken inside, trying to make it look like the pups were reared indoors, on certain cheap-ads websites. To be avoided.


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    #140
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,862 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    DBB wrote: »
    Amen to that!
    Ian Dunbar, founder of APDT US and great dog and puppy behaviourist, as trying to start a campaign where owners-to-be also demand that breeders socialise their pups properly,

    You might as well pray for a miracle DBB as might Ian Dunbar.

    I suggest that all responsible breeders declare on the media that they are going to have a moratorium for 2 years so that any pups for sale are clearly from dubious sources.

    They can then use the break to draw up a code of ethics with severe penalties for anyone breaking the rules. They we can all buy puppies with a degree of confidence. The loss of revenue would be more than offset by the demise of unscrupulous breeders.


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    #141
    ppink
    Registered Users Posts: 1,458 ✭✭✭ppink


    lrushe wrote: »
    The short answer is people power. If people demanded pups from health tested parents all breeders would have to comply or risk being left with a large portion of each litter they breed.
    .
    Discodog wrote: »
    True but depressingly we have already ascertained that the majority of buyers don't care because they don't think that it will happen to them. It's a bit like removing the law & then asking people not to drink & drive.

    .

    I honestly think that average people just dont realise all the different problems that dogs have or the need for health testing. I know even my own family/friends would never even think of it.
    This is why I think the IKC has to lead the way. (I think :) )

    I also think it is not that people dont care, it is just a total lack of knowledge...ignorance if you like. I have a friend who has a couple of dogs who are treated very very well.....she loves them and is great with food, exercise and all the provisions. she is into the vet in a flash if either dog looks even slightly sick. I was talking to her about puppy farms one day......she and all the girls working with her had never heard of puppy farms!!!
    Many owners ot be will never all demand these things as the majority have no clue that there are issue regarding health or socialisation.


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    #142
    DBB
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,740 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    Discodog wrote: »
    Simple use your "people power" & don't buy a pedigree dog. If everyone did this we would eliminate Puppy Farms & bad breeders with a few years.
    If you really must have a particular breed then find one in a rescue.

    But what if you want a pedigree pup? I have no problem with someone wanting to buy a pedigree pup! I do have a problem with people buying one without making sure it is ethically sourced though.
    this thread has just confused me so much. one minute ikc is the only ones to buy dogs of. the next their getting slayed. So who do you buy dogs of?

    If I were buying a pup, I would contact the Breed Society.
    If it is a working breed, I'd also contact the appropriate club or attend competitions to see how the dog's relations perform, how they move, and I'd talk to their owners.
    Same for going to shows to talk to the people directly involved with the breed.
    I'd only shortlist breeders who health-test, and one whose dogs are treated like pet dogs.
    Once I had found a breeder with dogs I like, I would make myself known to said breeder and get to know them. I would express an interest in a pup, then go to visit that pup with it's mother and litter at least a couple of times before I shook hands on the deal.
    I would want the pups to be raised inside in the house, and getting regular exposure to lots of different people of lots of different ages. So, I would not choose a breeder who has no family and raises pups in a quiet house with few visitors. If the pup is reared outside, for me it's a no-no, unless the pups are clearly being kept inside for long periods every day.
    I'd want the breeder to be trying to introduce new experiences every day for the pup, starting with very gentle and short handling from birth to letting them mix with safe adult dogs belonging to the breeder or breeder's family. I'd want the breeder to have brought the pups for short journeys in the car, I'd want the pups not to panic when they see a hoover being used in their vicinity, and I'd 100% want to make sure the breeder is feeding the pups from separate bowls and supervising mealtimes, preventing pups from bullying each other at the trough.
    I would want the mother to be a sweetheart, and made 100% available for me to interact with. I would also want to meet the sire.

    Is that too much to ask?:p
    Actually, for someone who's into what they're doing, all of the above should be a foregone conclusion!


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    #143
    lrushe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭lrushe


    Discodog wrote: »
    True but depressingly we have already ascertained that the majority of buyers don't care because they don't think that it will happen to them.

    I don't think it's fair to say the majority of people don't care, I think the majority of people are misguided & need some education on how to buy a dog correctly, that information unfortunately doesn't seem to be readily available to them. Even the last Puppy Farm programme on TV3 didn't once mention health testing.
    So maybe I'd change my answer to people power & education even going into schools & starting with young kids because you can put all the laws you want in place but there will always be someone there to get round them, you have to get the majority to want to do the right thing.


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    #144
    GT_TDI_150
    Registered Users Posts: 10,917 ✭✭✭✭GT_TDI_150


    I get the people that willy-nilly match dogs might be breeding animals more prone to illnesses but could breeders not cause other health problems by trying to breed away from certain things? And id the confined gene pool not cause for concern when talking about pure breeds?


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    #145
    Hellrazer
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,617 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hellrazer


    portgirl123 wrote: »
    this thread has just confused me so much. one minute ikc is the only ones to buy dogs of. the next their getting slayed. So who do you buy dogs of?

    Buying an IKC registered dog will give you SOME protection but again in my opinion isnt the be all and end all of getting a great dog.

    As I said before excuse the pun but they have no teeth and are not willing to sanction breeders that break IKC rules.


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    #146
    Hellrazer
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,617 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hellrazer


    Discodog wrote: »
    Also Vet certs are as easy to fake as Pedigrees & who says that every Vet will be totally ethical when money is involved. My friends spent a fortune on a Newfie pup that had been Vet checked yet a few weeks later my Vet discovered a fatal heart condition - the puppy has since died. Did the Vet check really happen or did the Vet miss the defect ?

    Id have sued the Vet for the price that I paid for the puppy through the small claims court.No bones about it-whether it was missed or was deliberate the vet was at fault and your friend was down 1k+


    Simple use your "people power" & don't buy a pedigree dog.

    You know my thoughts on that one--I will only buy a pedigree.Ive explained why before.
    If everyone did this we would eliminate Puppy Farms & bad breeders with a few years.

    No it wouldnt.What would happen is that there would be a shortage of puppies (any puppies) and even the good old fashioned mongrel would fetch a price so you`d have people breeding whatever two dogs they had at hand just to make money.Banning something outright usually forces the prices upwards and in effect could make things worse for the animals.

    The one and only way that this practice is ever going to be stopped is through the right legislation ie huge fines and or prison sentences for those caught mistreating animals.Until that happens and as long as their is money to be made the practice of mistreating breeding dogs will continue.

    If you really must have a particular breed then find one in a rescue.

    Again something that I find people are too quick to recommend.Rescue dogs are not the solution to this problem--legislation is.

    If breeders can make a quick buck then they are going to breed.They dont care what happens to the dog once its taken away to their new family--sure the bitch is probably almost ready to breed again in their eyes.
    The resuces can keep going on about getting a rescue over a pedigree but it wont work.The law needs to be changed to allow inspection of any and all premises of dog breeders who must be registered with a central registration and meet minumum standars in order to be allowed to breed dogs,it needs to allow for inspectors have undisclosed access and needs to allow inspectors to call the garda if they suspect any wrong doing.It then needs to legislate for massive fines and prison for law breakers.

    Until then this country is going to remain one of the worst countries for animal welfare in the world.People go on about Spain and bullfighting etc but we`re every bit as bad when it comes to mistreating animals.


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    #147
    DBB
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,740 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    Hellrazer wrote: »
    Buying an IKC registered dog will give you SOME protection but again in my opinion isnt the be all and end all of getting a great dog.

    As I said before excuse the pun but they have no teeth and are not willing to sanction breeders that break IKC rules.

    Absolutely. The IKC have a whole lot of work to do before they can be taken seriously as an organisation that is genuine about dog welfare. The "old boy" system is abhorrent, and I was about to say they're not fooling anyone, but unfortunately, they are!
    Owners-to-be tend to put a lot of stall in their dogs being IKC registered, when in fact, it doesn't mean a whole pile. Any puppy farmer can IKC register his pups. As long as the IKC merrily register litter after litter from the same bitches, don't have minimal standards for puppy production which they enforce, and don't sanction members whose dogs that were produced in breach of the Code of Ethics, they are to be regarded with a wary eye by a potential dog owner.
    I don't think I'd consider a dog unless the breeder was also a member of their Breed Society, as I feel that this offers better protection, on a moral level anyway, to buyers.
    If a breeder is a member of the Breed Society for their breed, they will tend to be more compliant with the IKC and Breed Society Codes of Ethics and will tend to be trying to improve the breed. Usually!
    However, there is simply no replacement for an owner-to-be doing the legwork and making absolutely sure they not only see where their pup-to-be has been born and reared, but that they are invited to go and see where their pup has been born and reared.
    Any breeder that is genuinely trying to produce good quality pet dogs and who wants to support the pup, and his family, for life will want to build up some sort of a relationship with you, and will be like a clucking hen about how their pups will be raised when they've moved to pastures new.

    So, in short, don;t think the pup you're buying is of any quality just because it's IKC registered. Make 100% sure for yourself that the pup was reared in conditions conducive to good welfare and proper preparation of pet dogs, from health to temperament to behaviour.


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    #148
    Zapperzy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,524 ✭✭✭Zapperzy


    Latatian wrote: »
    Slightly off-topic, but I think there's a bit of a distinction to be drawn between ordinary cross-bred dogs (accidents), designer breeds, and cross-bred dogs for other purposes. I'm as against designer breeds as the next person, but we need to do careful outcrossing of breeds occasionally to prevent the whole "Hapsburg lip" situation (and decreased fertility etc); or at least we will eventually need to do this if we don't want to lose certain breeds.

    I'd also say that an ethically cross-bred dog for a purpose (as you see with working dogs) or a well-bred dog from a landrace rather than a breed, isn't necessarily more poorly-bred than a dog from a reputable breeder. Nor is a cross like that any worse ethically than the reputable breeder's cross, provided the health testing has been done, temperaments looked at, ability and health taken into account etc.

    Donedeal- you do occasionally see overwhelmed people giving up puppies which are a bit older, but it's hard to tell how many of these are genuine and how many are puppy farmers trying to get rid of an older pup on the cheap. When it's a young collie "free now, needs room to run" it's generally pretty obvious.

    That was done with the dalmation. They introduced a pointer and then bred back to dalmations to the point that you can't tell the difference between an LUA dalmation (the one with the pointer mixed in) and a non-LUA dalmation conformation wise but health wise they are much healthier. http://www.luadalmatians.com/

    Needs to be done with more breeds in my opinion, but all these labradoodles, cavachons and rottiemalchipoodoodles are not the way to go about it.

    As for working dogs being crossbred I'v no problem with that because it's done for a purpose, ie. to get a better working dog. Not to spread false myths and rumours in order to make more money.
    lrushe wrote: »
    I wouldn't so long as they are honest with themselves about their dogs abilities ie. they see one of their dogs aren't up to scratch for the work intended so never breed from it.
    Before dogs became so sedate in lifestyle there was no need for health testing, if a dog couldn't do the task it was bred for it just wouldn't have been kept let alone bred from so I think regularly working a dog can be as good as health testing, however relying on just working a dog can as I've said above depends on human honesty which isn't always dependable (harder to produce a cert for work like it is for health testing).

    Aren't greyhounds (at least from racing stock) one of the healthiest breeds around simply because they are bred for a purpose rather than bred for looks/pet. A breeder looking to breed a good racing dog is hardly going to breed from a dog with hip dysplasia so the unhealthy dogs are effectively weeded out. Wouldn't it be lovely that in order for a litter of pups to be registered the breeder had to prove that the parents were fit for purpose ie. does agility, field trials or some other form of work.


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    #149
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Discodog wrote: »
    Do we really want to start categorising breeders with terms like Back Yard ? Surely there are only two types of breeder - responsible & irresponsible.
    There will obviously be degrees of responsibility.

    At the end of the day one could produce a checklist of all the desirable checks & balances when buying a puppy. It should even be possible to grade the possible effects of not satisfying each criteria.

    Buying any dog will involve an element of risk. Rather than scaremongering it is more about reducing your risk of getting a problem. But human nature tends to minimise risks - it won't happen to me. This is made worse by the desire for a particular breed, at the right price & without having to wait.

    Once the buyer sees a pup then all reason goes out of the window & we try to put any risk out of our minds. The breeders know this. Also people are reluctant to query or complain. They don't want to appear stupid & will tend to believe who they think is a knowledgeable breeder.

    At the end of the day some people will decide today that they want a pedigree breed & will want to buy one tomorrow. That's why there are puppies on websites. As long as there is a demand people will breed to supply it.

    It might not be a nice thought but the Puppy Farms that everyone wants to see stopped would not exist if it were not for impulsive, breed specific, so called animal lovers.
    Great post Discodog. +1


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    #150
    DBB
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,740 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    Zapperzy wrote: »
    rottiemalchipoodoodles


    Ooooh! Where could I get me one of those?!


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    #151
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,862 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Hellrazer wrote: »
    Id have sued the Vet for the price that I paid for the puppy through the small claims court.No bones about it-whether it was missed or was deliberate the vet was at fault and your friend was down 1k+

    You can't because you could not prove that the vet was negligent especially as another vet would have to testify against them.
    Hellrazer wrote: »
    You know my thoughts on that one--I will only buy a pedigree.Ive explained why before.

    Well as an animal lover you wouldn't mind waiting 2 years especially if it was for the good.
    Hellrazer wrote: »
    No it wouldnt.What would happen is that there would be a shortage of puppies (any puppies) and even the good old fashioned mongrel would fetch a price so you`d have people breeding whatever two dogs they had at hand just to make money.Banning something outright usually forces the prices upwards and in effect could make things worse for the animals.

    Not with 6000 dogs being killed every year - there is never going to be a shortage of mongrels.
    Hellrazer wrote: »
    The one and only way that this practice is ever going to be stopped is through the right legislation ie huge fines and or prison sentences for those caught mistreating animals.Until that happens and as long as their is money to be made the practice of mistreating breeding dogs will continue.

    We have had such law for 100 years & it has not been effective in Ireland. We will never see huge fines or prison & we only have 5 ISPCA Inspectors for the whole country. Our new Dog Breeding Bill & the expected Animal Welfare Bill will not make any difference because they won't be enforced. We will never have proper enforced law until the majority support it & insist on it as they do in the UK. It is a cultural problem that will take generations to improve.
    Hellrazer wrote: »
    Rescue dogs are not the solution to this problem--legislation is.

    The resuces can keep going on about getting a rescue over a pedigree but it wont work.

    Rescue dogs are the innocent victims & every one that is rehomed means one less dead dog. Lots of rescues have pedigree dogs - one well known charity has loads at the moment & they all come health checked, behaviour tested, vacc'd & neutered.


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