Student nurses to protest over pay abolition

sam34 · 04-02-2011 5:49am

Sardonicat wrote: »

You go on placement and see med students getting their accomodation paid and a nursing student sent on a placement in a hospital elsewhere has to pay their own accomadation and have to stay in a house picked by the nursing department, sharing with other students. They cant even choose their own place, FFS! joke.

just to point out, med students only get their accommodation paid if they are sent away from their base eg from cork to Limerick etc. and. when that happens they get allocated a place, not of their choosing, and they have to share. it's not really a big deal, IMO.

Babyblessed · 06-02-2011 9:31pm

Nursing and Midwifery students undertake a full 4 year degree programme. However the majority of 4th year is undertaken as an EMPLOYEE of the HSE.

The college year varies from Uni to Uni. However its broadly the same and MUCH longer than other courses.

The following would apply to a 2008 intake student in UCC:

1st year Nursing/Midwifery students undertake 20 weeks full time lectures of about 30hours per week (not the usual 10-15h in many other courses). There is also 7 weeks working on the wards for 30h per week. During ward weeks we work long days and are also expected to undertake a further 6 hours of study/reflective practice. We have 3 weeks set aside for exams and 3 for study. (For instance we dont get 6 weeks off before exams start as many other students do.) (Early Sept 2008-End May 2009)

2nd year entails starting back mid August (rather than end of Sept) for clinical practice. This year continues until the end of the 2nd week of July... It includes a total of 19weeks of lectures (30+hour weeks) and a total of 18 weeks clinical placements (30hours + 6hours reflection/study) this would include nights but not weekends. There is 4 weeks of study leave and 3 weeks set aside for exams. (Mid Aug 2009-Mid July 2010)

3rd year is a total of 19weeks clinical placement (same as above) and 10 weeks lectures (30hrs or so a week). 2 weeks study leave and 2 weeks exams. (Mid Sept 2010-Mid May 2011)

4th year is 10 weeks of lectures (as above), 2 weeks study leave and then final exams.... We have 1 week of clinical placement before we become employees of the HSE. This pre-registration rostered work starts the 2nd Monday in January until the end of the 2nd/3rd week of September.

Anyone who undertook a course did so on the understanding that once they started their rostered pre-registration work they would be paid 80% of the 1st point of payscale. Newly qualified Nurses and Midwives are actually starting out on the second point. Therefore the 1st point was really only a starting point to grade the 80%.
In the budget announced in Dec 2010 all new entrants to public sector saw a cut of 10% to their prospective pay which meant pre-reg nurses and midwives were also affected.
On 22nd Dec, the government sought (now successfully) to completely remove, on a phased basis, any payment for this rostered work on the wards. This was not passed to any other junior employees in public service, for example trainee Guards on placement will still get the pay they were offered when they started their course, and so they should.

We started our course in the full knowledge it wasnt going to be a 'walk in the park'. We knew it would be hard work although its hard to truly find out just how full on it is until you get there as the lecture timetables are only available to current students.
We have managed through various cuts in income. ie the progressive cuts in grants to those who are lucky enough to qualify for them.
When we are on the wards we still have assignments and study and exams and life!!!
Some people go home and start again looking after family and other people go and undertake 24hours of work over a weekend because 9-5 lectures Monday to Friday just is not conducive to part-time work. Some amazing people manage both.

We knew this when we started.

We also knew in final year, when we basically have our BSc, we would undertake 9months of work for the HSE which would be paid. Paid at a reduced rate because we were not 'quite' qualified but we'd still have to take care of patients/clients on our own; work night, bank holiday, weekends exactly like newly qualified nurse/midwife.

We informed ourselves and on this basis undertook a nursing/midwifery course.

I have spoken to many people; excellent future nurse/midwives, who have said that had they known they would have considered another course, probably a 3 year course. There are people out there who got loans/interest only mortgages/right to buys etc based on the fact they would be earning on rostered placement.

During the 1st 3years, you are paid nothing, bar a grant if you are that lucky.

Its not right, nor 'fair', to compare the nursing/midwifery degree here with the UK model. In the UK its only 3 years... they get a bursary, everyone gets it but dependant on circumstances it can be around £40k over the 3 years. They are also COMPLETELY supernumery and not expected to undertake patient/client case loads. They do LESS ward placement than their Irish counterparts.

During this rostered work shifts are often given with only 3 days notice. It would be virtually impossible to arrange part-time work around this unless you had the most understanding of employers. Besides many pre-reg nurses and midwives are being told to sign contracts that say they cannot undertake ANY other work...................how will they support themselves?

This announcement was made giving the current pre-reg nurses and midwives less than 10 working days notice of the changes........

Dozen Wicked Words · 06-02-2011 9:48pm

Babyblessed wrote: »

They are also COMPLETELY supernumery and not expected to undertake patient/client case loads. They do LESS ward placement than their Irish counterparts.

Agree with your anger and you are right about most things. Take issue with your assessment of a Students role in the UK. They are absolutely 100% expected to have a case load of patients, regardless of what "status" the students have, in practice is not very different from what a Student does in their fourth year here. Also take issue with your figure of 40 thousand over their training. the average would be much less.

Still, as I say, I agree with your broader point and the student nurses are getting shafted, as are junior doctors with their holiday entitlement. Only a matter of time before the government start moving up the food chain.

Herodotus · 06-02-2011 10:02pm

Work for no pay in 2011 Ireland? Unfortunate, but true.

I have 5 years of Uni behind me in a good area with good grades.

Since finishing Uni, I have started and completed three unpaid jobs aka 'internships' lasting a total of 9 months.

The workload in the first two jobs, in particular, was heavy and, without giving personal details away, was serious and required a lot of reponsability on my part.

Bar my busfare and some lunch from employers, I had no support, even from my parents. Unfortunately, they are not in a position to help me.

In the first job, I was forced to work part time at the weekends to support myself. I went 3 months without a single day off.

Currently, I still don't have a paid job and am still in unpaid job number three. I also am eating fast into my savings from the parttime job that I had during my first job ('internship').

Therefore, in part, I do empathise with (future) student nurses not
receiving pay, but I also find the uproar on boards disingenuous also.

Many fine students and graduates are currently being used as de-facto staff members for little or zero pay.

Please, in our abhorrance of such practices, let us all see the bigger picture.

I would also emphasis that nurses are, in many cases, literally walking into jobs on graduation. Admittantly, not in Ireland, I accept. But there are ample good quality nursing job opportunities available in the UK, Australia and many other countries.

How many other students / graduates can say that on facing the current job market abroad?

As for me, my unpaid jobs continue. Emmigration looks like the ultimate outcome, but, unlike nurses, I don't have a job in the NHS to walk into.

Babyblessed · 06-02-2011 10:02pm

Thanks for your positive comment *Dooferoaks*, much appreciated!

I can only say as my own enquiries to UK uni's led me when I started this journey. The bursary amount is fully dependant on family income and if you have children and have to pay for their subsequent childcare. It also can reflect differences in area, for example London areas get larger bursaries.

Any of the UK student nurses/midwives I know are amazed at our situation and the fact we 'work' for nothing during the 1st 3 years. They certainly dont claim to have responsibility for patients in the same way we do here.

I just think its shameful that this was withdrawn from students here who had been promised this payment when they started their course.
In fact the nursing careers website still says in its publications that students starting in Sept 2011 can expect to be paid 80% of salary on rostered placement....
If and only IF this was to be phased in, it should be brought in for those who would be applying to start in Sept 2012. The books could be reprinted, informed decisions made for future students and promises made to current students/pre-reg staff would be kept.
Many people applying for this Sept (2011) are doing so in the understanding that they are being paid in 4th year because thats what the 'informed' literature says!

sitstill · 06-02-2011 10:05pm

When I was a student teacher, I had to teach 11 classes per week for free for a year. If you want to qualify in a profession then you gotta do the hard work.

Babyblessed · 06-02-2011 10:11pm

*Herodotus*,

fair comments.

However, moving from Ireland would be near on impossible for me.... but that my situation. Getting me going on the staff shortages and the waste of money using agency staff never mind the effect this has on continuity of patient/client care is another arguement!!

The point is the government, promised us that our final year we would be employed by the HSE for a period of 9 months on 80% of first point of pay.
It is almost impossible to work another job during this time due to the notice many pre-reg nurses/midwives get for their rostered hours. Aside of this some contracts stipulate you are not allowed to work other than your rostered hours on the ward so therefore for 9 months prospective students starting in Sept 2011 will have no means of supporting themselves.

Babyblessed · 06-02-2011 10:19pm

Sitstill..

Fair dues and well done, I couldnt work as a teacher!!! I volunteer with teenagers and couldnt work full time with them!

However as above, student nurses/midwives work unsociable hours, weekends and nights and not often allowed to work another job to self support.
They work 37.5hours per week, often with no breaks. In the 9 months as a pre-reg there is 3 1/2 weeks annual leave, which is usually allocated and can only rarely be requested at a time convenient to the worker.

Feu · 07-02-2011 2:29am

what a crazily untainted thread for after hours :pac:

shadowqueen wrote: »

Deprived of pay, many student nurses will have to take part-time work wherever they can. They already work a full week in hospitals, doing a difficult and very important job for the first time. I fear that working extra hours on top of this, plus the strain of financial worries on top of an emotionally challenging job may prove too much for many student nurses, and as they cave in to exhaustion, their focus, concentration and abilities will diminish. A good nurse who works a full working week and then spends the entire weekend in a second job and who must constantly worry about budgeting and if s/he can afford next weeks rent is surely no longer capable of functioning as a good nurse.

As emotionally challenging as some of the other health professions, i believe!

I'm an Occupational therapy student, and i have to say, i genuinely never had a gripe with student nurses getting paid, or at least never more than a passing gripe

From what i've seen many of them work pretty hard, and they do complete 3-4 long shifts a week.

But I have to say Liam Doran's frankly inexplicable remarks that when the pay rate is reduced, and then finally abolished, their work will be tantamount to slave labour, and unehtical, have really got my back up! As stated by several, the hours are 37.5 per week. Roughly the same as any other student physio, OT, speech and language, dentist (?) etc, and i'm sure med student. Yes, they may be unsociable hours, but i take offence to him stating that it would be slave labour for nursing students, but it's grand for the rest of us? What are we? Chopped Liver? I'm fairly shocked that he's coming out with this rhetoric, and none of the other professions are challenging it.

Physios, OTs, speechies, radiographers etc in final year are on the frontline, have patient case loads, make patient decisions, and should be working almost the same level as full time staff, as after their final placement, they will be straight into staff grade. No, they are not necessarily rostered on, as it is is a slightly different system, but they would have their own client base, the same as nurses.

Those who can't find part-time work may have to drop out. Surely the last thing we need is fewer nurses, especially if a drop-out point is half-way through their final year, when a) money has been invested in their training and b) their hospital has come to rely on them.

I agree completely, it's a waste of everyone's time if 4th years of any degree have to drop out due to financial concerns

Buttercup18 wrote: »

I am an fourth year intern and yes we are part of the INMO, and also starting our internship we all signed contracts stating that legally we are not allowed to work outside the hospital so even if we wanted part time jobs its not allowed as we work 37.5 hours shift work. Just back from an 8 am til 9pm shift and have another one tomorrow where I had to look after 6 patients on my own, no health care assistant and just help from a staff nurse to administer my medications. So personally and not because I am a current intern, who because of my contract this cut will not effect I think this cut is crazy.

Any student nurse i've asked about getting paid in 4th year has said that it's because
a, they work unsociable/unfixed hours, i.e. changing roster, and so they would be unable to work part time.
ok, yes, they may be unable to find other part time employment, but i don't think the arguments raised such as "oh so and so has a mortgage" or "she has kids" are really good enough. So do lots of other mature students and other students in different courses with long placements. I know of one, for example, in Tallaght IT with a 7 month unpaid work placement, some working up to 50 hours per week. Yes, nurses are disadvantaged that their roster is unpredictable, but i don't think it's fair to say that they are in the worst situation, or worse off than everyone else.

As an aside, I believe OTs may have slightly longer placements than some of the other professions, at 10 weeks. Yes, it's generally 9-5, so is predictable, but it's the same number of total hours, so if nurses are slave labour, then so are we. In addition, we had to do an unpaid placement after 2nd year over the summer, of 9 weeks.

b, they are rostered on the same as a full time nurse would be, i.e., they are there "instead" of a fully qualified nurse.
Ok here's the crux of the matter, and i'm surprised it's not been mentioned, at least i don't think it has. 4th year student nurses are being used as full time staff. Pay is irrelevent to this point. They are rostered on nights, weekends, etc, to replace full time staff. Hospitals rely on this. Many literally could not operate a nursing team without these additional nurses. This is the fault of the HSE not employing enough and An Bord Altranais. As nursing shift times have come down and down (as i think they should have), more and more nurses are needed, and they have to come from somewhere. The HSE uses 4th yr students not as cheap labour (i don't think 80% of full pay is particularly cheap!), but to fill out understaffed hospitals and wards. This is why they get paid, because they are there as a full time staff member, altho they are students. Someone above said you can't have it both ways, i think they currently are.

I think this is part of the reason the INMO are so up in arms, and that all nurses/midwives are striking. They may be in real trouble if the system changes, ie if 4th yrs work fewer hours, or just work during the week to allow them to work part time at the weekend. This will leave INMO high and dry with no one to work relief at the weekends.

shadowqueen wrote: »

Maybe they can "survive" but they'll already be working a full-time week and providing a very important service. Working and borrowing your way through college is difficult and a strain, not to mention the fact that nursing must be an exhausting and emotionally difficult job, especially at the start. Why not make it a bit easier for them? Let's face it, when your life could be in somebody's hands, you want them to be able to work to the best of their ability.

Slip-ups happen when we're tired and stressed. And a slip-up by a nurse can be fatal

This could equally apply to any of the health professions who work the same number of hours as student nurses, and work directly with patients

Deleted User wrote: »

Speaking as a med student, there's no comparison between med students and nursing students. Med students have no responsibility in the hospital other than to learn. We attend tutorials and examine patients just for our own education, we do not really contribute to the running of the hospital in any meaningful way. In fact the place would probably run better without us as doctors have to go out of their way to find time to teach us.

Nursing students on the other hand have to work rostered hours, and are assigned responsibility for the nursing care of a number of patients. Much of the work they do is the same as what fully qualified nurses do. The hospitals would be seriously in trouble without them.

OT and Physio students do have to take on some caseload of their own, but they don't usually have to work nights, or the long hours in general, that nursing students do.

Yep, OTs, Physios and the rest (!) have their own caseload, and you can be working very much on your own in final year, with some supervision, but the same number of hours, over 5 days, rather than the 3 or 4 for nurses.

I guess, in the end of it, i don't really object to the fact that they get paid, (so much!), but more to how this argument has been categorised, and how it reflects opinion onto the other professions, and how there's one rule for one, and another for the others, with the union objecting so strenuously to the students being made the same as everyone else.

There's also an unpleasant smack of if you don't support this, you don't support nursing. Which is not helpful reasoning.

P.s. amusing comments on the med students

Babyblessed · 07-02-2011 10:21am

Feu,

Unfortunately Liam Dorans 'slave labour' comment has upset a number of people, especially people who have made a career out of McDonalds. I know a good few managers with 20+ years of hard work and great pay who are highly offended.

I think I said above part of the problem is with the way this has been brought in.
Less than 10 working days notice for current pre-reg students?? Thats hardly right.
Had they even discussed phasing out this payment for future entrants to nursing/midwifery it would have been something. But to phase it out for people who started the course in 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010 in the knowledge that a rostered, paid, pre-registration year was pre-requisite is, well, appalling. Those who started in 2010 will now be paid €5.01 per hour... yes less than minimum wage when they expected and were promised more.

Feu · 08-02-2011 12:21am

i'm not sure what point you're making about McDonalds, I may just be missing it

i understand what you're saying BabyBlessed, although i'm not sure that's the point other people were making, but to be honest, i think the point still stands, i think there's a bit too much outrage over basically making student nurses the same as everyone else. They are students. Vast majority of other students on placement don't get paid. I maintain that nursing students while being dealt an unexpected blow, are not the worst off.

I understand that you're saying there was an expectation of pay there, and without resorting to the tired "they should be doing it for the love of it" cliche, people have expectations of lots of things, only for them not to transpire, particularly in Ireland today. An over the summer 9 week placement was introduced on my course which was not there when i started. I was not able to work outside the hours of the placement. I had the expectation that i would have full summers to work when i started the course. This was changed, and i was pi$$ed off, but courses change all the time, and the HSE and health policy has certainly changed in the past few years

Dick Burns · 08-02-2011 1:47pm

i dunno what they are complaining about they get the ride every night in coppers

hatrickpatrick · 08-02-2011 9:43pm

Just to revive this debate, as an interesting coincidence I had to have an emergency appendectomy on Friday night, in Vincent's.

Almost every single nurse I met was a student, as evidenced by the UCD logo on their uniform. I won't name any here obviously, but the first nurse I met worked all evening and all night for my first two days there (and had already worked 4 days according to herself, some day hours and some night shifts). They organized my IV lines (post op antibiotics), they dealt with whatever situations emerged with individual patients, they did everything you would expect a ward nurse to do. Having now seen the work they do first hand, if they are not going to be paid for this it is a f*cking national scandal. These are the people who quite literally helped to save my life and undoubtedly save many others. Went into A&E at 4AM and while I waited for an x ray of my abdomen I also witnessed quite a few drunken idiots hurling abuse at these nurses. It's all part of the job, you say. It's what one would expect going into that line of employment.

One would also, of course, expect to be paid in return for putting up with this. Not exactly a minor detail.

Babyblessed · 08-02-2011 10:08pm

Thanks HatrickPatrick.......

Acacia · 08-02-2011 11:27pm

I'm seriously disliking the trend towards 'working for free' that the country is heading down. It's got to the stage now where you work your bo11ocks off in school, study hard in college, pay your way with a part-time job, finally get your degree... and are then told you're damn lucky to be working for free in your chosen field for 50 hours a week. Fcuk that.

Currently, I'm doing unpaid work experience. I can only do it because I live at home though and I'm not too dependant on money ( of course, it would be nice to be making my own way in the world at this stage (I'm 22), but this is the best most young people can hope for in this fcuking banana republic...). Honestly, I'm happy just to have something relevant on my CV... but working for nothing is a luxury that not everybody can afford. I really feel for student nurses- doing an incredibly hard job and to not even receive a penny for it is disgraceful when we have TD's and other fat cats walking away with wads of cash.

It's like they're actually forcing young people out of this dump. I honestly can't see a future here for most of my generation.

Babyblessed · 08-02-2011 11:32pm

Acacia wrote: »

I really feel for student nurses- doing an incredibly hard job and to not even receive a penny for it is disgraceful when we have TD's and other fat cats walking away with wads of cash.

It's like they're actually forcing young people out of this dump. I honestly can't see a future here for most of my generation.

Thanks Acacia..... Cant remember who said it to me recently but its 'education for export' for anyone currently in education.

Its not just young people who will be leaving, Im nearly 40 and have 6 kids....... it looks like the only permanent employment that will be available for me will be in the Uk.......... and I just HATE that. I want to work here!

Acacia · 08-02-2011 11:43pm

Babyblessed wrote: »

Thanks Acacia..... Cant remember who said it to me recently but its 'education for export' for anyone currently in education.

Its not just young people who will be leaving, Im nearly 40 and have 6 kids....... it looks like the only permanent employment that will be available for me will be in the Uk.......... and I just HATE that. I want to work here!

"Education for export" is a very good way of putting it. There's really no incentive to stay here after you've gotten a degree. I mean, for most people I know their options are to continue in their (crappy) part-time college jobs or get the dole, or emigrate. Maybe they can find experience relevant to their degree but most likely it will be for free... and people don't go to college so they can work for free in something they like. They go to colllege so they can earn a decent living.

My post mentioned young people in particular because I suppose I'm seeing a lot of my own age group feeling very let down by the country, but of course people of all ages are affected.

People spouting this "we're all in this together,stop feeling entitled to a good job just cause you studied the subject for 4 years":rolleyes: really grind my gears... yes, it would be nice to do our ''patriotic duty" and not emigrate. I don't particularly want to leave. But patrioticism won't put food on the table, I'm afraid. Neither will working a full-time job for nothing, just to get experience.

Babyblessed · 08-02-2011 11:55pm

Acacia,

it galls me!!!!!! My daughter is a 4th year student nurse and will prob go further afield than the UK....... :mad:

I dont mind paying my taxes/USC or whatever. But... if a contract is made at the beginning of any employment/course, then it should be kept not thrown away just because government/bankers make a mistake! Maybe it should be looked at for future (and that is also wrong but at least people get to make an informed decision about the course they are undertaking) but not for those already committed.

The people doing nursing and midwifery wont find it easy to work elsewhere to support themselves, many have already been told that extra work outside their HSE employment is illegal and a breach of their 'work' contract. Others, will struggle to find an employer who will accept the odd hours and offer part-time work around this. I know this because my daughter struggled every day the last 3 1/2 years with her part-time job due to the long college hours and long clinical experience days. We are blessed she had a very understanding employer (and she was a great employee......yes I am biased but I know her boss would agree!).

This country is about to lose a generation of educated and informed young people because of greed.

It makes me cross!

smilerxxx · 09-02-2011 11:23pm

Hi guys,

Thanks for all the support

:D

Todays protest in Limerick went well, off to Dublin Feb 16th for a national protest. We're all coming from around the country hopefully.. Beep the horns for us please

:):)

onelessprob · 09-02-2011 11:55pm

Have a look at our "Nurses per capita" stats, as a country.

14 per 1,000.

2nd in the world, behind only Finland. Twice that of France at 6.7.

How is this explained? Do nurses cover jobs that are done by non-nurse staff in other countries?

As a non-nurse, this seems like a luxury that a broke country with a high basic wage simply cannot afford. Obviously a hugely contentious issue, as nurses are a well unionised, vocal and popular cohort.

If the Government is trying to cut numbers, surely the least worst option would have been to address the issue of nursing places in college, to avoid a situation where the single largest employer cannot take the people who they have spent the last 3 years training.

mar5 · 10-02-2011 1:59am

i am a qualified nurse and i must correct you on the point regarding responsibility,,,,,,if anything happens with the patient it is the nurses responsibility and not the students.Also there are some students that do deserved to be paid however there are others that have no interest at all and are just in nursing to get a degree and go into a different career,,,,nursing should have been left as a diploma programme and then like myself have the option of doing the degree and work fulltime like i did during that year,,,

mar5 · 10-02-2011 2:11am

Roger Marbles wrote: »

Student nurses do get breaks, one one hour break and 2 fifteen minutes break for the average shift. These breaks are ring fenced off.

They do get overpaid compared to qualified healthcare assistants. They are not qualified and shouldn't be working but learning from qualified nurses in a supervised setting. Much like any other field. It's just cheap labour from the governements point of view.

And nurses in general get overpaid and don't do the work they take "training days" off at the taxpayers expense e.g. cannula insertion, ECGs, first dose medications. The standard line is "I'm not covered to do that" when in fact they are. They also leave a lot of the manual work to health care assistants and porters and use the not covered line quite frequently here too.

Look at any other EU healthcare system and you will find nurses do this stuff and aren't as lazy and overpaid as their Irish equivalents.

to roger marbles,,,,,am a qualified nurse and how dare you say that we leave alot of the manual work to healthcare assistants,,,,i work in an oncology ward and all the staff work together ,,we only have one healthcare assistant on some days and yes us nurses do , do the manual work also.....assisting the patients is number one priority and maintaining their activities of daily living is vital.....i can only talk for my own ward,,just wondering do you work in healthcare,,,also with regards to the cannualation study day and ecgs and first dose drugs we are not taught them in college,,,,so yes i do use the line @i am covered with regards to ecgs' because i have not been trained to use them or read them....with regards cannualation it depends on what speciality one workd in,,,,,as i work in an oncology setting cannualation is vital and yes again i had to attend a study day because one has to be trained in order to insert a cannualae...i wasnt trained in college to do it......i have the responsibility of lives every day and if there is a procedure that i am not aware of it,,,i have the right to say i am not covered to do it,,,,,within my scope of nursing practice i must be accountable and if something is outside my scope i will not be covered and will be putting the patients life at risk and my own career,,,so please get your facts correct before ya state such stuff and also how dare you say we are lazy,,,,come work with me for one hour,,and will prove you wrong.

mar5 · 10-02-2011 2:28am

Hogzy wrote: »

I can guarantee 100% you cannot show a source for this. Or else your soure is someone "you know" who gets paid this amount. No fresh graduate starts on 40k in nursing unless they end up doing 70-80hrs a week with overtime, and if thats the case then they deserve that sort of money.

The sheer amount of hear say in this thread has reached epic proportions. No doubt the majority of it is BS

totally agree with ya,,,,wish people would get their facts straight will be 7 years qualified this year and would love to have seen me topline pay before tax to be 60,000 ,,,what world is padraig in!and also to say that the wards are easier than a and e give me a break,,,,,the cheek of him,,,he obviously has never worked in a hospital,and to say that the hca's do the dirty work,,,he really has not got a clue at all which really maddens me,,,we might have only one hca on during the day and we all work together as a team and get the work done,,,,so padraig please get your facts correct before you start tying because you havent a clue

kurisu · 10-02-2011 3:03am

onelessprob wrote: »

Have a look at our "Nurses per capita" stats, as a country.

14 per 1,000.

2nd in the world, behind only Finland. Twice that of France at 6.7.

How is this explained? Do nurses cover jobs that are done by non-nurse staff in other countries?

As a non-nurse, this seems like a luxury that a broke country with a high basic wage simply cannot afford. Obviously a hugely contentious issue, as nurses are a well unionised, vocal and popular cohort.

If the Government is trying to cut numbers, surely the least worst option would have been to address the issue of nursing places in college, to avoid a situation where the single largest employer cannot take the people who they have spent the last 3 years training.

Your ignoring the issue of student nurses being forced to work fulltime hours as nurses for no pay ,if you want you are free to start a thread about fully qualified nurses pay but these are both unrelated

"As a non-nurse"- well then you don't know jack ****

also to others that say "well if you don't like it don't do nursing" do you realize what that would mean? fewer and fewer nurses, the healthcare system will only get more strained and we'll be forced to use high salary offers to attract foreign/expat irish nurses to Ireland which will cost us more than low paid student nurses fresh out of college.

pragmatic1 · 10-02-2011 3:26am

Went to college last year and was friends with a few 4th year student nurses. They've all since found employment in Britain. One of the major advantages for them seeking employment was the practical experience they gained on their last 9 months placement.

I know from talking to them that they worked extremely hard. However, the investment in their training is unlikely to benefit the Irish state for quite some time to come. Most of my friends from my own course have availed of the fas WPP1, whereby they work in a placement for free but are allowed to draw benefits. Most are reaching 9 months in their placements.

Very complex situation with no quick fix solutions. No wonder the youth of this country are leaving in droves.

take everything · 10-02-2011 6:17am

mar5 wrote: »

also with regards to the cannualation study day and ecgs and first dose drugs we are not taught them in college,,,,so yes i do use the line @i am covered with regards to ecgs' because i have not been trained to use them or read them....with regards cannualation it depends on what speciality one workd in,,,,,as i work in an oncology setting cannualation is vital and yes again i had to attend a study day because one has to be trained in order to insert a cannualae...i wasnt trained in college to do it......i have the responsibility of lives every day and if there is a procedure that i am not aware of it,,,i have the right to say i am not covered to do it,,,,,within my scope of nursing practice i must be accountable and if something is outside my scope i will not be covered and will be putting the patients life at risk and my own career

^Don't want to get into this but just on this:
Man i wish NCHDs had that luxury.
There's no real proper training in college for doing any of that stuff for NCHDs but they're expected to do this stuff straight from internship (see one, do one, teach one etc).
I envy nurses sometimes.
An NCHD would get a kick up the ar$e if he said he wasn't covered to do something because he wasn't properly trained.

onelessprob · 10-02-2011 8:16am

kurisu wrote: »

Your ignoring the issue of student nurses being forced to work fulltime hours as nurses for no pay ,if you want you are free to start a thread about fully qualified nurses pay but these are both unrelated

"As a non-nurse"- well then you don't know jack ****

also to others that say "well if you don't like it don't do nursing" do you realize what that would mean? fewer and fewer nurses, the healthcare system will only get more strained and we'll be forced to use high salary offers to attract foreign/expat irish nurses to Ireland which will cost us more than low paid student nurses fresh out of college.

The point was we have to look at our current number of nurses per capita. Rather than lay off, the powers may moratorium new recruits, non-domestically trained, etc. And i wouldn't say i don't know jack stars! I am well up on international health-care employment. We are producing 1600 graduates that we can't employ. Not paying someone for 9 months of pre-reg work is not to be compared with the slave trade. No-one benifits from this comparrison except newspapers. In all lines of work this is now the norm. And saying a patients life is are in danger is just waving the health-care stick, akin to blackmail. You can't say people will die, you cannot run a business without any sense of cost management, just because it is healthcare. The money belongs to the taxpayer, not the HSE for employees to spend as they will with no accountability or stewardship.

As to your comment about being forced to recruit high cost nurses from elsewhere. I think the HSE is no longer "either or", it's "neither." That is the point of there cuts. Although if you have evidence of people being brought in from outside at higher pay in place of irish nurses, please share.

+ How much does the 3 3/4 years of college cost the state in relation to the 9 months pay?

mehfesto · 10-02-2011 11:11am

As a former Nurse I can only say this is appalling. I gave up the job because I could no longer take the lifestyle - it was hectic beyond belief.

12hr shifts are bad enough, but when they contain aspects like being expected to deal with the death of a patient and then carry on as if nothing has happened - well, it's not a normal job. Even as a student nurse it's not easy.

I couldn't hack it. I can only applaud those who do. It's emotionally and physically draining - even as a student. Infact, particularly as a student. I don't know how they'd cope without money for 'luxuries' like a car to get to and from work (Trust me - getting a bus to and from a 1hour shift is heartbreaking), or even have enough money feckin' lunch for godsake.

It's appalling to think that of my former class of 84, only 5 are left working in Ireland. But if the country is happy to have a nursing shortage, I say be it on their head.

We can afford to keep paying our Taoiseach more than the US President.
We can afford to pay hundreds of bogus claims to welfare weekly.
We can afford to prop up dodgy banks.

We cannot afford to pay the small wages of the people who will care for us in our time of need and who will maintain our dignity when we no longer can.

Shame.

harar · 10-02-2011 1:55pm

As a second year student nurse I have been disgusted by the blatent ignorance and lack of respect displayed by a number of these posts. Its difficult not to feel personally insulted when a profession you are working extremely hard to enter is over-simplified and demeaned.

In the course of my training I've completed 14 weeks clinical practice so far and have also worked part-time as an agency care assistant. I have worked with nurses who I attempt to model myself on and nurses that made me promise myself never to begin to resent my job to the point that it compromises patient care.

Myself and the majority of my class have felt we have learnt a lot from the fourth year students. Majority of them land on their feet in an extremely stressful situation in prioritizing patient care, tending to their patients physical and emotional needs as well as concerned families and friends.

To expect intern nurses to work for nothing for one thing, but to insinuate they are lazy and don't deserve to be recognized as members of the heathcare team is completely unreasonable. Though they can't give drugs on their own, counter-signing drugs is a formality most of the time. As are the rules pertaining to IV meds etc.

It is undeniable that nursing is a stressful job. The hours are tough, as are the difficult patients. However, I would take an angry patient any day than one in pain or dying, or with no family to care for them. This is where the stress is shared between everyone working on the ward, from HCAs to the CNM- students included.

Personally, I am not surprised the pay is getting cut. Both my parents took significant cuts to their salaries and neither of them work in the public sector. I did not attend the sit in protests yesterday because I felt uncomfortable protesting at a place where people are sick or scared, but having read these posts I regret that as clearly the mutual respect I though existed between carers and those being cared for (which includes family members) is weaker than i thought. For the record I don't agree with the slave labour phrase either.

I find the 'nurses as heroes' school of though irritating and I have tried to resist sounding like the stereotypical bullish student protester. Luckily I live at home so the pay cuts won't affect me as badly as some of my class. Nursing is the degree programme in Ireland with the most parent students and has one of the highest number of people receiving the student grant as far as I know. It's hard work but most of us love it. Caring for patients involves more than drug rounds and hanging IV meds and anyone who has had a loved one in hospital can tell you that having someone their when you cant be to make them tea or listen to them talk is a huge relief. 4th year interns may not deserve to be exempt from pay cuts but working for nothing is asking too much.

upandcumming · 10-02-2011 2:45pm

mehfesto wrote: »

We can afford to keep paying our Taoiseach more than the US President.

Don't use this because you look like an idiot and I'm disregarding your entire post now.

harar wrote: »

As a second year student nurse I have been disgusted by the blatent ignorance and lack of respect displayed by a number of these posts. Its difficult not to feel personally insulted when a profession you are working extremely hard to enter is over-simplified and demeaned.

...

4th year interns may not deserve to be exempt from pay cuts but working for nothing is asking too much.

Some students are student nurses. Some students are lazy. Therefore some student nurses are lazy.
Its quarter to two and I'm lying in bed. The biggest mistake the governing body was removing the interview process. My aunt went for a job after college and she was asked the colour on the walls in the waiting room. She told him and was the first to get the job in that hiring period. I think she got it there and then. Can't remember. Oh well.

Student nurses to protest over pay abolition

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