Student nurses to protest over pay abolition

littlemutha

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

what unpaid interns did I mention



that's fantastically reassuring...

i'm new to this meant to reply to cunning alias, that person mentioned interns in industry, but those interns arent responsible for peoples lives, if an intern in an accountants office or a journalist intern made a mistake due to having to work a part time as well as do their internship that mistake would not be detrimental to someones life or healthcare, some of these student nurses could be working up to 70 hours a week to keep themselves going financially if these cuts come in.

Hogzy

Roger Marbles wrote: »

And nurses in general get overpaid

You cannot be serious. Have you ever seen the work a nurse has to do. They are underpaid and overworked if anything.

They also leave a lot of the manual work to health care assistants and porters and use the not covered line quite frequently here too.

Again the reason the healthcare assistants are there is for this sort of thing. How can you expect one female nurse to lift a 18 stone dead weight out of a bed. Of course they need assistance.

Look at any other EU healthcare system and you will find nurses do this stuff and aren't as lazy and overpaid as their Irish equivalents.

I can honestly say you have no clue as to what you are talking about

mikom

Roger Marbles wrote: »

Student nurses do get breaks, one one hour break and 2 fifteen minutes break for the average shift. These breaks are ring fenced off.

Ring fenced off in la-la land.

Roger Marbles wrote: »

And nurses in general get overpaid and don't do the work they take "training days" off at the taxpayers expense e.g. cannula insertion, ECGs, first dose medications. The standard line is "I'm not covered to do that" when in fact they are. They also leave a lot of the manual work to health care assistants and porters and use the not covered line quite frequently here too.

Look at any other EU healthcare system and you will find nurses do this stuff and aren't as lazy and overpaid as their Irish equivalents.

Bollox.

Cookie_Monster

littlemutha wrote: »

i'm new to this meant to reply to cunning alias, that person mentioned interns in industry, but those interns arent responsible for peoples lives, if an intern in an accountants office or a journalist intern made a mistake due to having to work a part time as well as do their internship that mistake would not be detrimental to someones life or healthcare, some of these student nurses could be working up to 70 hours a week to keep themselves going financially if these cuts come in.

and that's a reason to ensure everything they do is checked by qualified staff and have the backup there and have a suitable training enviroment, not a reason to pay them a lot more than is necessary for a trainee level position.

Hogzy

Cunning Alias wrote: »

Health and lives, no. The rest of it depends on the position. My sister worked for a year in advertising which was about 50 hours a week very little weekend work though.

A mate of mine in event management has been working unpaid for about 6 months, also doing about 50 hours + saturday and sundays in a part time job.

Basically, its hard everywhere at the mo.

How many hours a week do the student nurses do?

The difference is a student nurse wont know their hours until a week or two before hand. How can you keep a part time job if your full time job has irregular hours that you dont know of. Im fairly sure alot of the work in event management is 9-5 type stuff which tbh is completely different.

Larianne

Roger Marbles wrote: »

And nurses in general get overpaid and don't do the work they take "training days" off at the taxpayers expense e.g. cannula insertion, ECGs, first dose medications. The standard line is "I'm not covered to do that" when in fact they are. They also leave a lot of the manual work to health care assistants and porters and use the not covered line quite frequently here too.

You're having a laugh, right?

I've seen nurses giving the manual work to HCAs in the private setting, but not in public hospitals. It was always a nurse and/or student nurses.

littlemutha

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

and that's a reason to ensure everything they do is checked by qualified staff and have the backup there and have a suitable training enviroment, not a reason to pay them a lot more than is necessary for a trainee level position.

but they're work isn't double checked THEY ARE FRONTLINE STAFF!!!!!!!! For god sake, they are replacing qualified nurses, their first 3 years they work on placement for NOTHING!!!! In these years they are supported and supervised, in 4th year they are NOT SUPPORTED AND SUPERVISED!!!! They are fully responsible and employee's of the HSE, they are not seen as students, they are seen as interns!

sollar

Maybe pay them 50% or so until they qualify.

Doesn't trainee plumbers etc get paid by the state too.

littlemutha

Roger Marbles wrote: »

Student nurses do get breaks, one one hour break and 2 fifteen minutes break for the average shift. These breaks are ring fenced off.

They do get overpaid compared to qualified healthcare assistants. They are not qualified and shouldn't be working but learning from qualified nurses in a supervised setting. Much like any other field. It's just cheap labour from the governements point of view.

And nurses in general get overpaid and don't do the work they take "training days" off at the taxpayers expense e.g. cannula insertion, ECGs, first dose medications. The standard line is "I'm not covered to do that" when in fact they are. They also leave a lot of the manual work to health care assistants and porters and use the not covered line quite frequently here too.

Look at any other EU healthcare system and you will find nurses do this stuff and aren't as lazy and overpaid as their Irish equivalents.

oh my god! you actually need a reality check!!!! Lazy and overpaid? you need to take a good look at what you have posted and think about what you are saying. I have never ever witnessed a lazy nurse and have had plenty of contact with the healthcare system, nurses are the glue that holds the health service together, they don't have a chance to be lazy,

mikom

sollar wrote: »

Doesn't trainee plumbers etc get paid by the state too.

The way things are going they'll be posted as cardiovascular surgeons throughout the nations hospitals.

upandcumming

Hogzy wrote: »

I can honestly say you have no clue as to what you are talking about

No. You're wrong there. A good friend of mine left as Head of Nursing in a regional health centre. Run by the HSE.
Her heart and soul was broke trying to get them work. Day in, day out, she had to beg and plead, scream and shout. There has been no replacement due to the embargo, and the place has gone to fuck. They come in late, take five or six breaks, all because there is no one there to crack the whip.
Its like a zoo now!

My grandmother was in hospital for a routine operation. In the night, she went to the bathroom and felt weak on her way back to her bed. She sat on a chair in the hallway, and a nurse walked by. My grandmother asked could she help her get back to her bed.

"I'm finished for the night." And left her there.

Feeona

Unfortunately, the public sector cuts are a great idea to most people until their father dies because an undervalued, over worked nurse makes a mistake. Or their ten year old son/daughter isn't get the attention he/she needs in an over-crowded classroom. Or someone breaks into their house, and gardaí take longer to arrive because of cut backs at the local station.

But nevermind, the band plays on.

Cunning Alias

Hogzy wrote: »

The difference is a student nurse wont know their hours until a week or two before hand. How can you keep a part time job if your full time job has irregular hours that you dont know of. Im fairly sure alot of the work in event management is 9-5 type stuff which tbh is completely different.

I wasn't saying that they should have part time jobs, just that my mate is working one on top of her 50 unpaid hours. Just wanted to give an example of a different situation.

I will admit that 9-5 is handy, but once again, they knew what they were getting into.

Here is another example. Someone is in their final year of Architecture or Science etc. Basically a course that has a huge amount of study, practical work, thesis etc. For this student to do well they want to spend 50-60 hours a week so no time for a job. Do they deserve 18K? Or anything for that matter? For the sake of argument, don't just reply with the "lives in their hands" point. It has been well stated.

I left my part time job in October of my final year to focus on my degree and used savings and the end of a loan to survive. Im sure many have done the same. Why can't they do this?

mikom

Cunning Alias wrote: »

Here is another example. Someone is in their final year of Architecture or Science etc. Basically a course that has a huge amount of study, practical work, thesis etc. For this student to do well they want to spend 50-60 hours a week so no time for a job. Do they deserve 18K?

Say they go missing for a week, who's gonna cover their shift to prevent strain on the other workers.
Oh wait, it doesn't matter as much in Architecture or Science.

Dozen Wicked Words

littlemutha wrote: »

but they're work isn't double checked THEY ARE FRONTLINE STAFF!!!!!!!! For god sake, they are replacing qualified nurses, their first 3 years they work on placement for NOTHING!!!! In these years they are supported and supervised, in 4th year they are NOT SUPPORTED AND SUPERVISED!!!! They are fully responsible and employee's of the HSE, they are not seen as students, they are seen as interns!

Not all factually correct I am afraid.

All their work is supported and supervised, it has to be countersigned by a registered nurse, ultimately, regardless of the year of the student, they will be the ones who are accountable in a court of law and to the Nursing Board. If records are in nursing notes without being countersigned by a registered nurse they are not legal. A student nurse cannot do a drug round on their own so a registered nurse again supervises this work. A student nurse cannot give blood products or IV medications.


Saying all that, I agree with your sentiment, and admire your spirited defense of Student Nurses. They are a crucial part of the running of a ward, and fully deserve the pay they get for the 4th year, mad they dont get paid for the 4 years.

anothernight

My sister's a final year student nurse, working their standard 12h shifts. Thankfully at least she's working day shifts now. She likes her job but I see how incredibly tired she is after each working day, not to mention the physical injuries (she's an intellectual disability nurse).
I don't know about you, but I don't think I could work 60 hour weeks on no pay.

I wonder what the financial support will be like for those who have to give up their jobs to do their nursing placements.

melekalikimaka

they are unqualified students, work experience, real life training in a very serious field, sure we'd all love to get paid whilst studying and in work experience, but we are in a recession, paying for this labour is a luxury we can no longer afford

aisling.laura

Cunning Alias wrote: »

I will admit that 9-5 is handy, but once again, they knew what they were getting into.

Exactly, I'm a second year student midwife who is also facing these cuts, and yes, we knew what we were getting ourselves into when applying for the course. What we thought was that we would be getting 80% of the minimum midwife/nurse salary. We didn't know that we'd be faced with reduced wages or no wages at all. So please don't say we knew what we were getting in to in that respect.

Would you, or anyone for that matter, work 13 hour shifts, night duty, weekends, all for free? Honestly?

A girl on my course has 5 kids, there is no way she will be able to even contemplate a part time job on top of her hours in the hospital. These plans are a disgrace and that anyone can even think about justifying them just baffles me.

sollar

aisling.laura wrote: »

Exactly, I'm a second year student midwife who is also facing these cuts, and yes, we knew what we were getting ourselves into when applying for the course. What we thought was that we would be getting 80% of the minimum midwife/nurse salary. We didn't know that we'd be faced with reduced wages or no wages at all. So please don't say we knew what we were getting in to in that respect.

Would you, or anyone for that matter, work 13 hour shifts, night duty, weekends, all for free? Honestly?

A girl on my course has 5 kids, there is no way she will be able to even contemplate a part time job on top of her hours in the hospital. These plans are a disgrace and that anyone can even think about justifying them just baffles me.

Well if you are no longer getting paid. Work the set hours you are down for and do no work outside your program of learning.

I think student nurses should get paid btw but 80% is too much imo.

gaeilgegrinds1

They are an easy target, end of. Sad but true.

sam34

Larianne wrote: »

I highly doubt that.

Doctors get paid as interns, right?

yes, but by then they are qualified doctors, not medical students.

aisling.laura

sam34 wrote: »

yes, but by then they are qualified doctors, not medical students.

Qualified doctors yes, but with very little experience in patient care. Nurses and midwives have done placements throughout the three years in advance of the internship period and I for one have already done night duty, 13 hour shifts, weekends etc., just as part of my regular placements, for which we get not a penny. Due to the demands of my course I can only work two days a week as it is and I'm only a second year. I think by the time our internship comes round, we have more than earned the right to be salaried for the work that we do.

Larianne

sam34 wrote: »

yes, but by then they are qualified doctors, not medical students.

Can they practice as a doctor without doing their medical internship?

Cunning Alias

aisling.laura wrote: »

Would you, or anyone for that matter, work 13 hour shifts, night duty, weekends, all for free? Honestly?

If it replaced 4th year, got me an internationally recognized qualification that would allow me to work in most places in the world...I think I might.

Would you work 50 hours a week for a year, for free, with no guarantee that there will be a paid position at the end and instead of a qualification, all you get is a line or two on your cv?

Im not trying to be a prick about the issue. I just want to show that people are in **** situations everywhere.

mikom

Cunning Alias wrote: »

Would you work 50 hours a week for a year, for free, with no guarantee that there will be a paid position at the end and instead of a qualification, all you get is a line or two on your cv?

Sounds like secondary school.

sam34

Larianne wrote: »

Can they practice as a doctor without doing their medical internship?

to get full registration with the medical council they have to do internship, but they still have medical degrees.

and while doing their internship they do not have to have all clinical decisions overseen and counter-signed by more senior colleagues

aisling.laura

Cunning Alias wrote: »

If it replaced 4th year, got me an internationally recognized qualification that would allow me to work in most places in the world...I think I might.

Would you work 50 hours a week for a year, for free, with no guarantee that there will be a paid position at the end and instead of a qualification, all you get is a line or two on your cv?

Im not trying to be a prick about the issue. I just want to show that people are in **** situations everywhere.

It doesnt replace 4th year, we still have to do finals, dissertations and all the rest, we just do them before Christmas, then work up until the middle of September.

Yes I am more likely to get a job at the end of all of this, but not unless I leave the country, which I don't necessarily want.

I completely understand that people are in sh*t situations all over the country but as has been said before, we've been seen as easy targets and we can't just stand by and let it happen.

sam34

aisling.laura wrote: »

Qualified doctors yes, but with very little experience in patient care.

but with huge responsibility and long working hours.

Dozen Wicked Words

So the thread is turning into a pissing contest, excellent, at least I will get to check for UTIs

melekalikimaka

aisling.laura wrote: »

I completely understand that people are in sh*t situations all over the country but as has been said before, we've been seen as easy targets and we can't just stand by and let it happen.

there are bigger issues going on and maybe you are an easy target, justifying the expense of paying students is no longer a luxury the state can afford