Student nurses to protest over pay abolition

speedboatchase

Why should students of any discipline get paid?

Wompa1

In a way it's bad but also there are many other courses which have placement programmes in which the participants don't get paid at all....

I went out with a few student nurses..just out of pure luck. I can type quite fast so would offer to type up their assignments for them...some of the assignments were laughable..so simple and stupid. Also I have never known anybody to go out so much in their final years as the nurses!

Also have heard from a work colleague who's sister is a nurse and when qualified did the Irish thing and went to Australia. It was apparently a large group of Irish nurses in the hospitals and were hated by the Australian nurses because they would come in drunk or hungover and spend the first 20 minutes of the day on oxygen tanks to sober up.

But that's just from my experience and what I hear.

drkpower

speedboatchase wrote: »

Why should students of any discipline get paid?

Because student nurses (certainly in the latter years of training) also provide a service. The more appropriate description is that they are apprentices who receive on the job training.

The comparison, that some have made, with medical students is of no real value. Medical students dont provide any real service. They are not rostered any specific hours; thay have no set roles or duties, other than to attend lectures, tutorials etc.. and examine patients to improve their clinical skills.

mariaalice

I think this will run in to legal problem because you are either a student and on work placement where you are fully supervised and not counted as part of the rostered work team OR you are employed and are in a legal sense responsible for your work and can work unsupervised..... you cant be both.

As regards the UK nursing students are supernumerary when they are on placement.

steddyeddy

Padraig Mor wrote: »

What - all nurses work in A+E now do they?

Seriously if you think im getting into a debate with you as to wheter nurses work hard youve another thing coming. I would rather debate wheter or not the earth is flat with someone!

drkpower

mariaalice wrote: »

I think this will run in to legal problem because you are either a student and on work placement where you are fully supervised and not counted as part of the rostered work team OR you are employed and are in a legal sense responsible for your work and can work unsupervised..... you cant be both.

Of course you can be both.

Student nurses
Trainee solicitors
Apprentice mechanics

All of the above are not fully qualified in their respective discipline, yet perform a service role (in addition to receiving training), and are paid for that role.

All of the above will be supervised and someone above them will have responsibility to 'sign off' on their work. There is no 'legal problem' with that arrangement whatsoever.

Buceph

drkpower wrote: »

Of course you can be both.

Student nurses
Trainee solicitors
Apprentice mechanics

All of the above are not fully qualified in their respective discipline, yet perform a service role (in addition to receiving training), and are paid for that role.

All of the above will be supervised and someone above them will have responsibility to 'sign off' on their work. There is no 'legal problem' with that arrangement whatsoever.

Aye, and most four year degrees have about six months of work placement. And the placement is paid.

Hogzy

Buceph wrote: »

Aye, and most four year degrees have about six months of work placement. And the placement is paid.

As is evident from my posts I am on the side of the nurses but your example above is not like with like. Most of those placement s involve private enterprise who pay students money to attract as many into their company so they can pick out the best students and offer them a full time role. Its different when it comes down to public employment.

However it is clear that 4th year student nurses are clearly service providers and would fit into the definition of a service provider alot better than a trainee solicitor or mechanic would.

If you are cutting the 4th year student nurses then you may aswell cut EVERY Fas placement scheme candidate from receiving payment too as this is out of the public purse also. The reason they are picking on the 4th year nurses is because they are a smaller minority and seeing as they are students they do not have as loud a voice as anyone else.

twinytwo

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

http://www.sbpost.ie/news/ireland/nurses-planning-series-of-protests-over-cuts-54227.html

Personally I couldn't possibly support this any more. I was in hospital myself for several months in 2006 and there were always a good few student nurses around who delivered absolutely excellent care as well as being very helpful and friendly.

They work full days for 6 months on top of having other college assignments and the usual college related stress to put up with. It's actually sickening that the government would target them. Given some of the things I saw while in hospital if I'd thought those poor students weren't being paid for what they were doing I probably would have protested myself.

On top of all that, I find it utterly scandalous that we're talking about basically using student nurses as slave nurses whilst we are allowing bankers (who we are now, in effect, the employers of) to continue receiving multi million euro pay cheques.

I know a lot of people will jump in here and talk about entitlement and more of the usual "put up and shut up" crap about cuts, but IMO this is yet another example of how the government are choosing the easy targets for cuts and protecting the few at the expense of the many.

If there is a protest march held I will be joining them. Anyone else?
(Also please don't buy this "all hands on deck" nonsense. It seems to convince a lot of people but the truth of it is that it's more like "all hands on deck apart from the first class passengers who have their hands on the arms of deck chairs.)

When are people going to learn that marching does nothing unless it big enough to bring say dublin to a complete standstill. You will be ignored while the govement swan around doing nothing but increasing the amount of money in their bank accounts.

RussellTuring

twinytwo wrote: »

When are people going to learn that marching does nothing unless it big enough to bring say dublin to a complete standstill. You will be ignored while the govement swan around doing nothing but increasing the amount of money in their bank accounts.

So then what is your solution? Lie down and take it until everyone else gets angry enough on your behalf?

Bottle_of_Smoke

Even if they don't get paid in the UK they can all get maintennance loans whereas here you can only get a grant if your parents are very poor.

If nurses were offered these loans I wouldn't be so against them not getting paid. Though it is utterly ridiculous to expect someone to survive on the shifts nurses do with no income

twinytwo

RussellTuring wrote: »

So then what is your solution? Lie down and take it until everyone else gets angry enough on your behalf?

em.. no i meant do the opposite actually. You hit the government where it hurts.

if you think anything in this country will change with peacefull protest ( unless as i said it is a whole country wide combined effort) you need your head examined.

People need to get over the "im alright jack" attitude as well. And open their eyes

RussellTuring

twinytwo wrote: »

em.. no i meant do the opposite actually. You hit the government where it hurts.

The ballot box?

if you think anything in this country will change with peacefull protest ( unless as i said it is a whole country wide combined effort) you need your head examined.

I don't think you're qualified to suggest psychiatric referrals on the basis of forum posts. And saying that someone is mentally unstable because you disagree with them is a poor argument.

My point was that there will be no change if everyone adopts the attitude you are, that it's pointless to protest because not everyone else will. It's a self-fulling prophecy. You can't expect other people to stand up for your rights if you weren't support them in standing up for theirs.

People need to get over the "im alright jack" attitude as well. And open their eyes

I agree wholeheartedly.

mariaalice

The key point about being employed or on on a student placement...is a payment of some sort of salary ... apprentices solicitors and apprentices mechanics are PAID...what is proposed is that the student nurses be part of the rostered team on a hospital ward ( so imo they are employees in the traditional ) without payment and i do think that might have legal implications if anyone sued the hospital because of the care they got. i.e was the care given by someone on a work placement who was fully supervised or was it given by someone who was employed by the hospital as part of a rostered team and responsible for their own work.

mikom

2dsrabl wrote: »

well i don't feel sorry for nurses. they get into the profession knowing what it pays and what hours that they work. Afterall, it's public information. they get an amazing pension as do all public service employees, and given the stronghold that nursing holds on this country, they can progress down any career path in the medical profession, despite the fact that their knowledge of most medical things is not as good as it should be for the posts that they are allowed to progress into. they can get jobs ANYWHERE and will never be unemployed. when you're a nurse, they even let you do jobs that aren't nursing jobs because they are consistered to be excellent at all things medical which they aren't.

An extract from the secret diary of Adrian Mole, aged 13 and 3/4's.

Hogzy

2dsrabl wrote: »

well i don't feel sorry for nurses. they get into the profession knowing what it pays and what hours that they work. Afterall, it's public information. they get an amazing pension as do all public service employees, and given the stronghold that nursing holds on this country, they can progress down any career path in the medical profession, despite the fact that their knowledge of most medical things is not as good as it should be for the posts that they are allowed to progress into. they can get jobs ANYWHERE and will never be unemployed. when you're a nurse, they even let you do jobs that aren't nursing jobs because they are consistered to be excellent at all things medical which they aren't.

They knew what it pays. And now they are trying to get rid of that pay. Go have a read off the thread buddy. :rolleyes:

midlandsmissus

I had to do three months placement in the fourth year of my degree. Was paid nothing. Had to pay rent of 60 euro a week. Survived on 100 euro a wekk I earned over two days at the weekend.

Worked 7 days a week, and had roughly 30 euro a week to spend. It was madness!

Roger Marbles

steddyeddy wrote: »

Seriously if you think im getting into a debate with you as to wheter nurses work hard youve another thing coming. I would rather debate wheter or not the earth is flat with someone!

The whole thing that all nurses work hard is a myth. They are overpaid much like consultants and HR and don't do nearly enough.

The hardest workers in hospitals tend to be student nurses, junior doctors, porters and HCAs.

Student nurses are just the governments way of getting cheap labour and passing it off as a clinical part of a degree.

Dozen Wicked Words

Roger Marbles wrote: »

The whole thing that all nurses work hard is a myth. They are overpaid much like consultants and HR and don't do nearly enough.

The hardest workers in hospitals tend to be student nurses, junior doctors, porters and HCAs.

Student nurses are just the governments way of getting cheap labour and passing it off as a clinical part of a degree.

In your experience, mine experience is different to yours and just as relevant/irrelevant.

What is a Myth is that everyone from one particular trade/job/profession is brilliant/terrible/lazy/hard working.

liquoriceall

The porters hardest workers? No the best moaners and the best at hiding behind doors avoiding work
Students in their last internship year should of course be paid they are working and it would be impossible for them to keep another job and do the shift work needed this should be a doorstep issue for everyone

mikemac

Are student nurses members of INMO?

As that union is realy pretty quick at getting themselves in the media.
But a quick check of their website and I don't see this story.
I do not know if Liam Doran is still involved but he was never shy of a camera

So can I take it student nurses are not in the union?

shadowqueen

I'm not really sure where the best place for this thread is...

First up, just to clarify that I am not a nurse/student nurse, but as a patient, I am deeply concerned about the move to cut and eventually abolish their pay.

While they have my full support in terms of working rights, am I the only person concerned about how the standards of our health care system will inevitably further decline when this comes in? Consider the facts:

1.Working student nurses may be gaining valuable skills and experience, but sadly landlords do not accept valuable skills and experience for rent, nor do supermarkets exchange it for food. Deprived of pay, many student nurses will have to take part-time work wherever they can. They already work a full week in hospitals, doing a difficult and very important job for the first time. I fear that working extra hours on top of this, plus the strain of financial worries on top of an emotionally challenging job may prove too much for many student nurses, and as they cave in to exhaustion, their focus, concentration and abilities will diminish. A good nurse who works a full working week and then spends the entire weekend in a second job and who must constantly worry about budgeting and if s/he can afford next weeks rent is surely no longer capable of functioning as a good nurse.

Those who can't find part-time work may have to drop out. Surely the last thing we need is fewer nurses, especially if a drop-out point is half-way through their final year, when a) money has been invested in their training and b) their hospital has come to rely on them.


2. These are austere times, and if a large free labour supply is available to hospital managers, it won't be long before they start cutting numbers of experienced nurses and replacing them with untrained interns - with few nurses left to train them.

3. The health system leaves much to be desired, and it is my belief that any cuts here that affect patient care and delivery of services must be fought lest the government - current and subsequent - decides it's an easy target.

What do others think?

orourkeda

Nurses are only human and can only be expected to perform to the best of their ability.

The fact that the conditions under which they work are less than perfect is not their fault. We need to ask questions of the people who are responsible for these poor conditions and find out if they would work under these conditions.

Guill

Nurses are sexy.

Buttercup18

I am an fourth year intern and yes we are part of the INMO, and also starting our internship we all signed contracts stating that legally we are not allowed to work outside the hospital so even if we wanted part time jobs its not allowed as we work 37.5 hours shift work. Just back from an 8 am til 9pm shift and have another one tomorrow where I had to look after 6 patients on my own, no health care assistant and just help from a staff nurse to administer my medications. So personally and not because I am a current intern, who because of my contract this cut will not effect I think this cut is crazy.

Sardonicat

Student nurses recieve no payment for the first three years of their degree during which they go on placemant and work alongside the staff nurses. If they are eligible they receive a student grant, if not, they don't, the same as any other student. If they can survive for three years they can survive the final 6 months.

coffee_cake

Could you not be concerned enough to see this thread 3 lines down

shadowqueen

Sardonicat wrote: »

Student nurses recieve no payment for the first three years of their degree during which they go on placemant and work alongside the staff nurses. If they are eligible they receive a student grant, if not, they don't, the same as any other student. If they can survive for three years they can survive the final 6 months.

Maybe they can "survive" but they'll already be working a full-time week and providing a very important service. Working and borrowing your way through college is difficult and a strain, not to mention the fact that nursing must be an exhausting and emotionally difficult job, especially at the start. Why not make it a bit easier for them? Let's face it, when your life could be in somebody's hands, you want them to be able to work to the best of their ability.

Slip-ups happen when we're tired and stressed. And a slip-up by a nurse can be fatal

Sid_Justice

medical students, physio, OT, SLT, radiography studentss are never paid

shadowqueen

I have to say, in all my years in and out of hospitals, I've never seen med students do much besides sit in the corner and observe, which isn't exactly providing a service in the way these guys are. Don't you guys get most of your living expenses taken care of though?

These are more like JHO's than placement students.

I don't know about the others. But perhaps they should be paid, or maybe have their registration fees and course materials subsidised by the government.