Student nurses to protest over pay abolition

Sid_Justice

Sid_Justice wrote: »

medical students, physio, OT, SLT, radiography studentss are never paid

Speaking as a med student, there's no comparison between med students and nursing students. Med students have no responsibility in the hospital other than to learn. We attend tutorials and examine patients just for our own education, we do not really contribute to the running of the hospital in any meaningful way. In fact the place would probably run better without us as doctors have to go out of their way to find time to teach us.

Nursing students on the other hand have to work rostered hours, and are assigned responsibility for the nursing care of a number of patients. Much of the work they do is the same as what fully qualified nurses do. The hospitals would be seriously in trouble without them.

OT and Physio students do have to take on some caseload of their own, but they don't usually have to work nights, or the long hours in general, that nursing students do.

TheZohanS

If student nurses want abortions let them I say.

Sardonicat

shadowqueen wrote: »

Maybe they can "survive" but they'll already be working a full-time week and providing a very important service. Working and borrowing your way through college is difficult and a strain, not to mention the fact that nursing must be an exhausting and emotionally difficult job, especially at the start. Why not make it a bit easier for them? Let's face it, when your life could be in somebody's hands, you want them to be able to work to the best of their ability.

Slip-ups happen when we're tired and stressed. And a slip-up by a nurse can be fatal

Just going to clarify myself here: I did 5 months of the nursing degree, after working as a health care assistant here and in uk for about 5 years in total.I quit when i realised what a shambles the degree programme was (admittedly, it was the first cohort, so possibly i was the victim of teething trouble) have since graduated in a different field.I could see trouble like this coming down the line.

When students nurses go on placement during the first three years, they work full weeks, nasty shifts, nights the lot. they receive no payment for this. they dont work part time outside of their course becuase of this. So their final year is no different than their first, except they are on a long block of placement, which lasts six months as opposed to three, which is the longest they would be on placement for in years one to three. During the final year, they are still students. An bord Altranis wanted nurses educated to degree level, this means treating students as nursing students as opposed to student nurses, i.e., same as any other student. Why should they be treated any differently by making things easier for them? you cant have it both ways.

Paying them or not during the last 6 months of placement wont make the slightest bit of impact on patient safety.Your life should never be in the hands of a student, whether they are being paid or not.

If you are really concerned about patient safety, take a look at some of the threads in health sciences forum and gape in disbelief at the conditions and hours being forced on our junior doctors. The student nurses will be grand. It's just the ino drumming up public support based on the "angel of mercy" stereotype. while i agree it is ****ty to change the conditions of the current students who had budgeted for this, really that 6 months with pay was a plum deal. Most oecd countries have a degree course for nurses and in most of them dont get paid (in uk for example, where my niece has just graduated) Many graduates in other sectors are forced to work in internships for free to gain the expereince they need.

Pherekydes

Ask your canvassers if it's a good idea not to pay student nurses.

If they agree it is, ask them to extend this unpaid on-the-job learning phase to new politicians.

Sardonicat

Pherekydes wrote: »

Ask your canvassers if it's a good idea not to pay student nurses.

If they agree it is, ask them to extend this unpaid on-the-job learning phase to new politicians.

How many times? They were only getting paid for 6 months out of four years. If it was ok for the first three years of placement why is it not ok for 6 months? enough of this angel of mercy nonsense. they are students like all other students. their course is apallingly tough and needlessly so, this is the fault of an bord altrainis, not the govt or the hse. the answer is to restructure the course along the lines of other health professionals like physios, radiographers etc. They want ot be taken seriously as a profession yet they want to play the florence nightingale card to justify the nonsensical system of nurse education which is not one thing or another. I've got no sympathy for the ino's cynical heart string pulling, which is all this is. if ye wanna get angry, get angry about the ilegal hours junior drs are working.

Sardonicat

Sardonicat wrote: »

If you are really concerned about patient safety, take a look at some of the threads in health sciences forum and gape in disbelief at the conditions and hours being forced on our junior doctors. forced to work in internships for free to gain the expereince they need.

Yes, NCHDs do indeed have to endure terrible working conditions, in fact the HSE just unilaterally cut their annual leave by 2 weeks. This is amongst the many reason why so many are leaving and the HSE is struggling to find enough NCHDs to fill vacant posts. In many cases they have ended up having to hire in locums at great cost to fill the gaps.

The NCHDs are unable to stand up to this mistreatment because, by law, the only union that can represent them are the IMO, who are absolutley useless, and appear to be in league with the HSE in their mission to destroy the public health system in this country.

However, nurses DO have a voice, and they are now using it to try and protect what remains of our health service. If everyone in the hospital had to endure the same conditions as NCHDs the HSE would find themselves with shortages in all disciplines. The HSE are basically trying to use the student nurses as free labour, in a bizarre attempt to get around the recruitment embargo. They did not count on the nurses standing up for their junior colleagues though. I say good on them, if only consultants would stand up for their junior colleagues in the same way.

TheZohanS

awesome

Conor Bourke

Roger Marbles wrote: »

The whole thing that all nurses work hard is a myth. They are overpaid much like consultants and HR and don't do nearly enough.

The hardest workers in hospitals tend to be student nurses, junior doctors, porters and HCAs.

Student nurses are just the governments way of getting cheap labour and passing it off as a clinical part of a degree.

Funniest thing I've read all day, thanks for the laugh.

Sardonicat

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, NCHDs do indeed have to endure terrible working conditions, in fact the HSE just unilaterally cut their annual leave by 2 weeks. This is amongst the many reason why so many are leaving and the HSE is struggling to find enough NCHDs to fill vacant posts. In many cases they have ended up having to hire in locums at great cost to fill the gaps.

The NCHDs are unable to stand up to this mistreatment because, by law, the only union that can represent them are the IMO, who are absolutley useless, and appear to be in league with the HSE in their mission to destroy the public health system in this country.

However, nurses DO have a voice, and they are now using it to try and protect what remains of our health service. If everyone in the hospital had to endure the same conditions as NCHDs the HSE would find themselves with shortages in all disciplines. The HSE are basically trying to use the student nurses as free labour, in a bizarre attempt to get around the recruitment embargo. They did not count on the nurses standing up for their junior colleagues though. I say good on them, if only consultants would stand up for their junior colleagues in the same way.

When i started my nursing degree we were told we were "nursing students" not student nurses anymore. now they've been rembranded as student nurses by the ino for sympathy. The answer to being treated like free labour is to simply refuse to do anything that a staff nurse has to do. I lay the blame of this disaster fairly and squarely on the shoulders of An bord altrainis, no one else. Students should not be expected to carry out the work of a registered nurse.

If nursing students had any real concern for patients they would refuse to engage in a mickey mouse degree which is no more than the old apprenticeship style of training with a thesis thrown in. They are used from the get go. why are they suddenly bothered about the last 6 months? You go on placement and see med students getting their accomodation paid and a nursing student sent on a placement in a hospital elsewhere has to pay their own accomadation and have to stay in a house picked by the nursing department, sharing with other students. They cant even choose their own place, FFS! It's at this point you pick up your self respect and go. Radiography students, physio students arent expected to do the hours of placement a nursing student does. it's not needed, regardless of what they'll have you believe. they are treated like skivvies from day one Yet they dont question why they have to be treated like schite until now?

No sympathy, sorry. the writing was on the wall years ago. Anyone with self respect and half a brain would do what i did and tell em to shove it. if people stopped applying for nursing things would soon change.The biggest culprits for screwing nurses in this country are nurses thenselves. i save my sympathy for the drs.Only an idiot would believe what passes as degree standard education for nurses is actually that. It's a joke.

Sid_Justice

I think the argument for 'paying' the nurses is that they actually do work while they're in their final year placements. In that they make beds and talk to patients and do other nursey stuff but not quite the serious business nursey stuff.

Where as the medstudents as the man above said, do nothing but learn and get experience and as such, are paying for the experience.

I am in favour of paying the students, i think they were on a 3/4 rate? it's being phased out so current 3rd years will only get 66% in final year, and the current 1st years will get 0% in final year.

A lot of vocational courses like apprenticeships get paid on the job, seems fair.

Having said all of the above, someone telling me because we're not paying the nursing final year students their few euro for their final placements is going to effect patient care and ultimately patient death is a huge exaggeration.

Sardonicat

Sid_Justice wrote: »

I think the argument for 'paying' the nurses is that they actually do work while they're in their final year placements. In that they make beds and talk to patients and do other nursey stuff but not quite the serious business nursey stuff.

Where as the medstudents as the man above said, do nothing but learn and get experience and as such, are paying for the experience.

I am in favour of paying the students, i think they were on a 3/4 rate? it's being phased out so current 3rd years will only get 66% in final year, and the current 1st years will get 0% in final year.

A lot of vocational courses like apprenticeships get paid on the job, seems fair.

Having said all of the above, someone telling me because we're not paying the nursing final year students their few euro for their final placements is going to effect patient care and ultimately patient death is a huge exaggeration.

1st 2nd and third years nursing students do not get paid.i'm getting tired of repeating myself here.they are not on an apprenticeship, they are studying for a degree, which was meant to replace the apprenticeship style training.

KilOit

Worked with nurses on wards for 2 years with clerical duties, and really can't say anything bad for most of them, i found 99% of them very hard working, and the student nurses i found were eager and hard working, of course they get to chill for few mins outside the rooms when things are quite so wasn't all go go.

Found that the Indian nurses weren't up to the same standard as Irish nurses and came across a couple with poor English and just clearly not having a clue how to deal with patients.

Now the care assistants, wow do they have a hard job, every one of them i met was so nice and caring.

nurses, student nurses, and care assistants deserve every penny they earn.

Some of the doctors are complete muppets with zero peoples skills, guess daddy wanted them to be doctors no matter what.

Carol_1985

Sardonicat wrote: »

1st 2nd and third years nursing students do not get paid.i'm getting tired of repeating myself here.they are not on an apprenticeship, they are studying for a degree, which was meant to replace the apprenticeship style training.

I think they mean when these 1st, 2nd and 3rd years reach 4th year, this is what they'll be paid. I don't think they mean that they get this money while in 1st, 2nd and 3rd year. No need to repeat yourself!

KilOit

KilOit wrote: »

Some of the doctors are complete muppets with zero peoples skills, guess daddy wanted them to be doctors no matter what.

And this is relevant to student nurse pay how? Or is it just that you wanted to get your little dig in regardless.

KilOit

Deleted User wrote: »

And this is relevant to student nurse pay how? Or is it just that you wanted to get your little dig in regardless.

Little dig in at the end, it's all relevant in the grand scheme of things.

KilOit

KilOit wrote: »

Little dig in at the end, it's all relevant in the grand scheme of things.

No, it isn't. That's some chip on your shoulder you got there buddy.

KilOit

Deleted User wrote: »

No, it isn't. That's some chip on your shoulder you got there buddy.

I'm not your buddy, friend, and yes it is.

KilOit

KilOit wrote: »

I'm not your buddy, friend, and yes it is.

I'm not your friend, pal.

Larianne

Sid_Justice wrote: »

medical students, physio, OT, SLT, radiography studentss are never paid

Deleted User wrote: »

Nursing students on the other hand have to work rostered hours, and are assigned responsibility for the nursing care of a number of patients. Much of the work they do is the same as what fully qualified nurses do. The hospitals would be seriously in trouble without them.

OT and Physio students do have to take on some caseload of their own, but they don't usually have to work nights, or the long hours in general, that nursing students do.

I really do think the nursing students should get paid for the final year placement. They have to work a continuous 36 week placement unlike other health-care courses where they do 4 or 5 week placements in blocks. How are nursing students meant to support themselves if they are not able to work outside the hospital during this time. (I think the long hours is irrelevant as these are normal shifts that nursing staff do).

Sardonicat wrote: »

No sympathy, sorry. the writing was on the wall years ago. Anyone with self respect and half a brain would do what i did and tell em to shove it. if people stopped applying for nursing things would soon change.The biggest culprits for screwing nurses in this country are nurses thenselves. i save my sympathy for the drs.Only an idiot would believe what passes as degree standard education for nurses is actually that. It's a joke.

It's kind of sad this. I use to want to be a nurse myself but after seeing the working conditions for nurses I said no way. I'm now studying another healthcare course which I do like but I think the working conditions here are causing a lot of nurses to move abroad to places like Canada and Australia as the working conditions are much better there.

Sid_Justice

wow some chip on your wan's shoudler

Sardonicat

Sid_Justice wrote: »

wow some chip on your wan's shoudler

Do you mean me? Is it that you dont want to believe what i'm posting about nurse education and the way nursing students are treated? If you dont want to be treated like **** then you dont let yourself get treated like ****. you get out while you can.

I am in a position to compare the nursing degree with other degrees cos i went and got a degree and a masters since i quit nursing and there is no comparison, believe me. i cringe now when i think back on what passed as a lecture where i studied nursing.

Physios arent put through this ridiculous level of full time work before they qualify, yet i cant think of another health profession that is more hands on apart form nursing. The last poster is right, despite being classed as normal students, nursing students are expected to work through summers with no compensation. my point here is, if they dont need compensating for this work in years one to three, why should they be compensated in year four for it?

nursing students should have been making noise about this years ago, but didnt, it's a bit late now. The professional nursing bodies are responsible for deciding how nurses are educated, the fault lies with them. Either you are in a full time degree programme, with a course structured around academic attainment relevant to you're profession supplemented with a some practical learning, or, you're in an apprenticeship, where the balance lies with hands on learning. Trying to do both means both will suffer. It's a nonsense and has been since it started. you may think this means i have a chip on my shoulder, in fact it means i expected a standard of education worth leaving my job for and the nursing degree simpy didnt provide that with or without the final years pay.

Larianne

Sardonicat wrote: »

The last poster is right, despite being classed as normal students, nursing students are expected to work through summers with no compensation. my point here is, if they dont need compensating for this work in years yone to three, why should they be compensated in year four for it?

But work done in years 1-3 are blocks of 4 and 5 weeks, not continuous 36 weeks!

Sardonicat

Larianne wrote: »

But work done in years 1-3 are blocks of 4 and 5 weeks, not continuous 36 weeks!

plus all of the summer on block! At least it was in 2003. whats the difference between slaving for free for 12 weeks and slaving for free and 36? it's still working for free. you are either on a professional degree programme, in which case you shouldnt be working for 36 weeks, or you're on an apprenticeship, in which case you dont get a degree. it can't be both. it's a nonsesne what student nurses are put through. There is no need for this amount of placement. it's just using you as cheap and now free labour.dont put up with it! simple as. They wont be long restructuring the course then.

The ino dont give a **** about nursing student conditions. if they cared about nursing students they would be agitating for a decent, fair degree programme such as those undertaken by other health care professions.

Sid_Justice

Can you elaborate on why you think combining practical experience with lectures is such nonsense? There are 3 year degrees for many courses, if you take away all the placement stuff the 4 year nursing degree is still the guts of 3.

what course did you do after you dropped out of nursing? was it a health science / care degree?

lilblackdress

Sardonicat wrote: »

When students nurses go on placement during the first three years, they work full weeks, nasty shifts, nights the lot. they receive no payment for this. they dont work part time outside of their course becuase of this. So their final year is no different than their first, except they are on a long block of placement, which lasts six months as opposed to three, which is the longest they would be on placement for in years one to three. During the final year, they are still students. An bord Altranis wanted nurses educated to degree level, this means treating students as nursing students as opposed to student nurses, i.e., same as any other student. Why should they be treated any differently by making things easier for them? you cant have it both ways.

Paying them or not during the last 6 months of placement wont make the slightest bit of impact on patient safety.Your life should never be in the hands of a student, whether they are being paid or not.

This is a load o bull tbh. For starters, for the first 3 years student nurses only work 3 or 4 day weeks-either 3 long days or 3 short and 1 long-never ever nights btw. Most student nurses also work alongside these shifts as carers or in shops (like i did for 3 years). In those 3 years you dont have much responsibility and you are learning so although i disagree with getting no money whatsoever i can see why it is the case. It can be exhausting but it's not too bad.

In 4th year there is a 9 month placement-not 6. This is made up of 5 placements on medical and surgical wards. During these 9 months 2 4th year student nurses replace 1 registered nurse. The 4th year nurse is held accountable for their actions in 4th year whereas they are protected by a preceptor for their first 3 years. Don't get me wrong, there is still a nurse there to help out but on some wards 4th year students have their own 6 patients and a nurse just helping out for things that need a registered nurse.

The rostered year puts a lot of pressure on student nurses. It is a full week of hard work which means that having a 2nd job is just too hard (Speaking from experience). If a student is working 6 or 7 days a week and is then going into a hospital and is responsible for patient care of course patient safety would be impacted. Not to mention the health of the students that would have to work that many hours.

So what you are saying is complete nonsense to be very fair. 1st year nursing is completely different from 4th year-to even compare the 2 is ridiculous. Face facts, sometimes your life is in the hands of a student. It was a 2nd year student that alerted me to a cardiac arrest situation one day.... otherwise that patient might not have survived. I know as a nurse we rely heavily on our 4th year students. They make our day run much smoother as they are a great help on an understaffed ward.

Sardonicat

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Can you elaborate on why you think combining practical experience with lectures is such nonsense? There are 3 year degrees for many courses, if you take away all the placement stuff the 4 year nursing degree is still the guts of 3.

what course did you do after you dropped out of nursing? was it a health science / care degree?

I dont think combining practical and lectures is nonsesne. nursing always had an academic element anyway.

Aside from medicine, most other health care degrees are four years. They dont include 36 weeks paid block though.

The field i studied in is irrelavent.

A power point presentation with 30 odd slides of bullet points being read out is not a lecture in any discipline. One genius lecturer actually told us that "loins" is a word for kidneys! This man had a masters in nurse education. Teaching a concept like this "murphy et al describe caring as blah blah blah...." and expecting this definition to be quoted back in an essay/exam is not teaching or learning. It's memorising. It is rehashing the definition of someone else without any critical analysis. We had to study theories of nursing (rightly so) and compare the merists of various models of care (again, as you would expect, these are a central tennet of delivering good care) yet, we were sent into a hospital that did not use care plans!So care plans are deemed essential knowledge for nursing, but the hospitals deemed worthy for training us didnt use them. (new fangled english nonsense, according to the cnm on the ward i was on placement on) despite the fact they have been central to nursing care in just about every developed country since the 70s. So, we were told to lie on our learning journals in relation to this in order to meet the requirements of an bord altrainis. The nurses mentoring us on the wards had three days training. thats right, i said days. in the uk they need to do a course over a few month and sit an exam or produce a piece of work before they are allowed to mentor students. Ther student mentors hadnt a clue what we were allowed to do or not on the wards. i could go on and give examples of how patients were treated but i wont.

Not good enough for me. I make no apologies for it.And anyone satisifed with that standard of education cant have much respect for themselves or the nursing profession

Sid_Justice

Sardonicat wrote: »

I dont think combining practical and lectures is nonsesne. nursing always had an academic element anyway.

Aside from medicine, most other health care degrees are four years. They dont include 36 weeks paid block though.

The field i studied in is irrelavent.

What makes you an expert on education especially education in the health sciences? do you have a degree in education? this is why it's not irrelevant

Sardonicat

lilblackdress wrote: »

This is a load o bull tbh. For starters, for the first 3 years student nurses only work 3 or 4 day weeks-either 3 long days or 3 short and 1 long-never ever nights btw. Most student nurses also work alongside these shifts as carers or in shops (like i did for 3 years). In those 3 years you dont have much responsibility and you are learning so although i disagree with getting no money whatsoever i can see why it is the case. It can be exhausting but it's not too bad.

In 4th year there is a 9 month placement-not 6. This is made up of 5 placements on medical and surgical wards. During these 9 months 2 4th year student nurses replace 1 registered nurse. The 4th year nurse is held accountable for their actions in 4th year whereas they are protected by a preceptor for their first 3 years. Don't get me wrong, there is still a nurse there to help out but on some wards 4th year students have their own 6 patients and a nurse just helping out for things that need a registered nurse.

The rostered year puts a lot of pressure on student nurses. It is a full week of hard work which means that having a 2nd job is just too hard (Speaking from experience). If a student is working 6 or 7 days a week and is then going into a hospital and is responsible for patient care of course patient safety would be impacted. Not to mention the health of the students that would have to work that many hours.

So what you are saying is complete nonsense to be very fair. 1st year nursing is completely different from 4th year-to even compare the 2 is ridiculous. Face facts, sometimes your life is in the hands of a student. It was a 2nd year student that alerted me to a cardiac arrest situation one day.... otherwise that patient might not have survived. I know as a nurse we rely heavily on our 4th year students. They make our day run much smoother as they are a great help on an understaffed ward.

I am posting form my experience, so please dont accuse me of lying. I started in 02, the first year of the degree and would have done a rotation of nights had i stayed. i also worked a full week. Some wards shadowed students to a mentor so you worked the same shifts, some did 9-5, 5 days again, no standard procedure.

My niece just graduated in the uk. she was never paid beyond a student grant. months on block, nights, the lot. She managed. so can ye. If ye dont like the way the course is structered change it. i'm repeating myself here now but put simply; if your not on an apprenticeship then you shouldnt be doing that kind of block work paid as a kind of semi staff nurse. it makes a mockery of the degree programme. last time i'm saying this: you cant have it both ways.

Sardonicat

Sid_Justice wrote: »

What makes you an expert on education especially education in the health sciences? do you have a degree in education? this is why it's not irrelevant

so you would agree that loins are kidneys would you?

Do you think it's acceptable to ask students to lie in learning journals that have to be submitted to external markers.

Do i need to be an expert in education to know that's not ok? Or is it ok in the health sciences?

degree level learning is about engaging your critical ability, in any discipline. Learning off and recycling definitions wihtout criticism or analysis is not that.

Super-Rush

Merged.