''Leader's'' Debate - TV3 - 8.00PM

hotmail.com · 08-02-2011 10:36pm

murpho999 wrote: »

Anyone know how I can contact Vincent Browne show about tonight's debate.

Found Vincent Browne's personal twitter, which had tweets out while debate was on so he mustn't be doing it himself, but can't find twitter or e-mail address for actual show.

Really want to send message about quality of tonight's debate and analysis afterwards.

Text Vincent followed by your comment to 53131.

He gives out the email address at the start of his programme.

Brenireland · 08-02-2011 10:37pm

murpho999 wrote: »

Anyone know how I can contact Vincent Browne show about tonight's debate.

Found Vincent Browne's personal twitter, which had tweets out while debate was on so he mustn't be doing it himself, but can't find twitter or e-mail address for actual show.

Really want to send message about quality of tonight's debate and analysis afterwards.

Ring the gaurds,because as far as debates go that was crime.

SB-08 · 08-02-2011 10:39pm

Enda has been verbally attacked for not turning up to the debate at his town hall meeting http://yfrog.com/iz731z

caseyann · 08-02-2011 10:40pm

It was a train wreck.And made me want to smack them in the head.Both incompetent and both saying same things.It sounded like drivel.

Who won that debate he asks.It wasnt a debate.

Brenireland · 08-02-2011 10:44pm

Michael Martin won that debate hands down I must say do.

Mr.Micro · 08-02-2011 10:49pm

caseyann wrote: »

It was a train wreck.And made me want to smack them in the head.Both incompetent and both saying same things.It sounded like drivel.

Who won that debate he asks.It wasnt a debate.

I have to agree. It came across like Vincent Browne tonight with him mute for a change. Gilmore was too polite and suffered dry mouth. Martin was condescending and slouching just criticizing without actually dealing with the question.

caseyann · 08-02-2011 10:53pm

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I have to agree. It came across like Vincent Browne tonight with him mute for a change. Gilmore was too polite and suffered dry mouth. Martin was condescending and slouching just criticizing without actually dealing with the question.

I completely agree, i was thinking i was losing the grasp of English language and listening skills.It was messy.
I would even debate better than that,and that is saying something

SB-08 · 08-02-2011 11:14pm

If you compare to previous leaders it's interesting. I believe had Cowen been there he would have lost - as he would've resorted to shouting and roaring summed up in "I don't accept that" and Gilmore would have been more prepared for that predictible approach and would have walked it. Martin surprised us by attacking and it took Gilmore by surprise.

Had Pat Rabbitte or Ruairi Quinn still be Labour leader they would have walked over Martin. Rabbitte will his aggressive but precise skills, he would have landed all the blows Gillmore missed. Quinn would have just made Martin look very stupid and ridiculed him.

And had FG still had a leader with some balls - like Michael Noonan - none of this nonsense and cowardly behavior would have existed. He would have probably asked for even more debates and would have nailed both Gilmore and Martin to the wall and easily won.

kippy · 08-02-2011 11:16pm

I have to say I didnt see the "debate" but based on what I am reading here, it appears people think, on the whole that FF came out of it better than they went into it, others think it was rubbish.
This is what I have been seriously worrying about in these debates.
There will only be one clear winner after they are all over. FF and Labour arent gonna go up too much more in the polls, down is the only way they will go while FF are at an all time low and the debates will only work in their favour.
Also, Martin is v. good with media.

Perhaps I will be wrong, I hope so - will try catch the next one.

K_user · 08-02-2011 11:21pm

I enjoyed it. And I found myself warming to Michael Martin, who I think "won".

I had been considering voting Labour, but now I'm not sure. Gilmore should have had an easy victory on his hands, FF was ripe for a good kicking. Instead he was on the ropes on a few occasions, at a couple of stages he looked speechless. All he really managed to do was get a few good quotes in, things that would appeal to the mass dissatisfaction that exists over FF at the moment.

But I think its clear to say that Enda would have been handed his ar*e had he been there tonight.

COUCH WARRIOR · 08-02-2011 11:27pm

Someone in Labour get that muppet Gilmore to watch Joe Higgins on VB now. That cabbage plant jibe pure class

Mr.Micro · 08-02-2011 11:28pm

K_user wrote: »

I enjoyed it. And I found myself warming to Michael Martin, who I think "won".

I had been considering voting Labour, but now I'm not sure. Gilmore should have had an easy victory on his hands, FF was ripe for a good kicking. Instead he was on the ropes on a few occasions, at a couple of stages he looked speechless. All he really managed to do was get a few good quotes in, things that would appeal to the mass dissatisfaction that exists over FF at the moment.

But I think its clear to say that Enda would have been handed his ar*e had he been there tonight.

Whatever Gilmore did or did not say I would love to know what Martin said that was so great ......because I sure as hell saw nothing but slick smooth talk with nothing other than we made right decisions calling into question how Labour was going to pay for their plans......same as Martin/FF....... EU/IMF bailout. What a comedian.

Liam Byrne · 08-02-2011 11:28pm

K_user wrote: »

But I think its clear to say that Enda would have been handed his ar*e had he been there tonight.

That's a new variation on the usual "Enda would have done the same if he'd been in power" propaganda!

How do you possibly know the above ?

Gilmore was weak
Martin was exposed as a question-ducker and a spoofer
Kenny - we don't know

As it is, Kenny came out best from the "debate"

SB-08 · 08-02-2011 11:38pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

That's a new variation on the usual "Enda would have done the same if he'd been in power" propaganda!

How do you possibly know the above ?

Gilmore was weak
Martin was exposed as a question-ducker and a spoofer
Kenny - we don't know

As it is, Kenny came out best from the "debate"

Ah come on - do you seriously think Enda would have had a chance? FG policies the best, they have the strongest team but he is the weak link. Gilmore and Martin waffled but debated very strongly and woudl have both destroyed Kenny with ease. Had Noonan or Bruton or someone with a strong grasp of issues been there instead - they would have most likely beat both Martin and Gilmore however. But Enda is not in the same league in terms of debating, and competence or efficiant understanding of the economy or his own policies. He is not strong at selling the product. Even though he was very unpopular in 02 - I actually think if Noonan was back as leader FG would get an overall majority, because he oozes competence and has a huge knowledge of issues, especially the most important - the economy. A team of Noonan and Bruton as either leader and Finance SP - would be very tempting for most people. Two very informed people who would instill confidence.

Unless TV3, RTE and whoever else come to an agreement (highly unlikely for advertising reasons) for a joint 3 way leaders debate it won't happen - prob Enda' plan- we will see how Enda peforms. The 5 way is utterly pointless unless it goes on for 2 hours. Otherwise it will just be pure soundbites. The waffle tonight x a million.

K_user · 08-02-2011 11:41pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

That's a new variation on the usual "Enda would have done the same if he'd been in power" propaganda!

How do you possibly know the above ?

Gilmore was weak
Martin was exposed as a question-ducker and a spoofer
Kenny - we don't know

Because I've watched Enda debate before?

He crumbled against Bertie, his Late Late Show performance was weak and most recently on RTE news all he talked to Dobbo about was "getting a better deal in Europe"...

Enda just doesn't seem to have that "TV factor" that works well in debates like this one.

In saying that, you can be great at the guff and sh*t at your job!

Liam Byrne wrote: »

As it is, Kenny came out best from the "debate"

I don't believe so.

MM came out the best. Labour and FG be warned, FF have only votes to gain at this stage. While they won't get into power again, they might not yet take the serious losses that some are predicting.

K_user · 08-02-2011 11:46pm

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Whatever Gilmore did or did not say I would love to know what Martin said that was so great ......because I sure as hell saw nothing but slick smooth talk with nothing other than we made right decisions calling into question how Labour was going to pay for their plans......same as Martin/FF....... EU/IMF bailout. What a comedian.

Its not about being great, its about confidence and personality.

There are those that aren't going to vote FF and there are those that aren't going to vote Labour. But its the swing vote that are the target of these debates. Those that don't have strong feelings, those that don't believe the "hype".

FF should have been put on the ropes. God knows Gilmore had the opportunity to kick them while they are down. And tens of thousands across the country would have cheered him. This was Labours chance to really show that they could lead going into the election.

Instead MM seemed to, somehow, turn it on its head - and I'm still wondering how!

Spudmonkey · 09-02-2011 12:06am

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Martin of course.

I well know who you were referring to. Your description could equally have been applied to gilmore himself!

nesf · 09-02-2011 1:05am

SB-08 wrote: »

If you compare to previous leaders it's interesting. I believe had Cowen been there he would have lost - as he would've resorted to shouting and roaring summed up in "I don't accept that" and Gilmore would have been more prepared for that predictible approach and would have walked it. Martin surprised us by attacking and it took Gilmore by surprise.

Had Pat Rabbitte or Ruairi Quinn still be Labour leader they would have walked over Martin. Rabbitte will his aggressive but precise skills, he would have landed all the blows Gillmore missed. Quinn would have just made Martin look very stupid and ridiculed him.

And had FG still had a leader with some balls - like Michael Noonan - none of this nonsense and cowardly behavior would have existed. He would have probably asked for even more debates and would have nailed both Gilmore and Martin to the wall and easily won.

Oh, definitely, Noonan would have wiped the floor with them and made the debate fascinating to watch. Oh, if only the heave had worked.

Permabear · 09-02-2011 8:08am

This post has been deleted.

kippy · 09-02-2011 8:38am

K_user wrote: »

Its not about being great, its about confidence and personality.

There are those that aren't going to vote FF and there are those that aren't going to vote Labour. But its the swing vote that are the target of these debates. Those that don't have strong feelings, those that don't believe the "hype".

FF should have been put on the ropes. God knows Gilmore had the opportunity to kick them while they are down. And tens of thousands across the country would have cheered him. This was Labours chance to really show that they could lead going into the election.

Instead MM seemed to, somehow, turn it on its head - and I'm still wondering how!

These "debates" are not about policies or a parties past history - they are about the skill of the guy doing the talking and his ability to appeal to the audience.
Martin is well ahead of the other leaders in this regard - it doesnt matter about the others policies.
Again these debates are not a good thing for the country.

K_user · 09-02-2011 8:42am

kippy wrote: »

These "debates" are not about policies or a parties past history - they are about the skill of the guy doing the talking and his ability to appeal to the audience.
Martin is well ahead of the other leaders in this regard - it doesnt matter about the others policies.
Again these debates are not a good thing for the country.

A politicians job is about appealing to the audience.

A politicians job is about his/her skill in talking.

A politician who can't talk and has no mass appeal would never get elected.

Sponge Bob · 09-02-2011 8:43am

Debate is over and now we are back looking at the ugly retarded greaseballs that FF wants to get elected. Martin himself may have done well but at the end of the day neither Fahey nor Crowe is in any way fit to run a country.

bamboozle · 09-02-2011 8:48am

i was shocked at how poor Gilmore was considering the amount of ammunition he could have pulled on Martin. Martin is a good performer in the media who specialises in avoiding questions.
to be honest I reckon the real winner was Enda and FG as many floating voters who were considering voting Labour will now swing to FG or independents....now Enda's performances in the 2 debates next week might just swing those votes back labour's way!

Bottom line for me is no matter how smoothly Martin performs, he is FF and him and his party will never receive a vote from me for what they have done to this country.

K_user · 09-02-2011 8:49am

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Exactly. Gilmore went into the debate believing that the public was behind him and he had a few tried and tested punches ready to throw. What he didn't expect was MM to go on the attack.

The man was visibly shaken on a couple of points and speechless at least once. The only time he seemed to come alive was when he was making "emotive" points, which sound great, are easy to quote, but aren't long term strategies.

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I agree completely.

K_user · 09-02-2011 8:52am

bamboozle wrote: »

i was shocked at how poor Gilmore was considering the amount of ammunition he could have pulled on Martin. Martin is a good performer in the media who specialises in avoiding questions.
to be honest I reckon the real winner was Enda and FG as many floating voters who were considering voting Labour will now swing to FG or independents....now Enda's performances in the 2 debates next week might just swing those votes back labour's way!

I don't understand that line of reasoning at all.

FF are at the bottom, the only way is up.

Enda lost his chance to "prove" himself last night. Labour lost its chance to show that it could take the fight by the throat. Together they missed the opportunity to put the last nails in FF. Instead MM came out on top, Gilmore looked a bit wet and Enda was off hiding somewhere in the bushes.

Rubik. · 09-02-2011 8:57am

Nick Clegg won the first Leaders Debate hands down in the Uk last year, his party ended up with 5 fewer seats than they had won in the previous election.

kippy · 09-02-2011 8:58am

K_user wrote: »

A politicians job is about appealing to the audience.

A politicians job is about his/her skill in talking.

A politician who can't talk and has no mass appeal would never get elected.

This is why the country is in the ****ter.
Lots of politicians around the country dont get the chance to talk to such a big audience and probably wouldnt be too good at it, but they get elected.

We have a lot of talk on guff on every site, too much talking I would say, not enough talking about the big issues.

MaceFace · 09-02-2011 8:58am

K_user wrote: »

A politicians job is about appealing to the audience.

A politicians job is about his/her skill in talking.

A politician who can't talk and has no mass appeal would never get elected.

Hey - there have a been a few people really good at appealing to an audience and very skilled in talking - Jim Jones and David Koresh to name two.

Style over substance - thats what most idiots people seem to want.

K_user · 09-02-2011 9:07am

MaceFace wrote: »

Style over substance - thats what most idiots people seem to want.

Really?

The two main oppositions to FF are FG and Labour.

Last night MM tore a hole through Labours policies and their "need" to please the people for votes.

FG's leader hid in the bushes and has already made one major gaff over the whole European bail out thing.

Its easy to vote for style when there seems to be no substance available...

Rubik. · 09-02-2011 9:12am

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

And it just takes one bombshell like Alan Dukes pronouncement yesterday to scupper any momentum FF appear to be making.

MaceFace · 09-02-2011 9:21am

K_user wrote: »

Really?

The two main oppositions to FF are FG and Labour.

Last night MM tore a hole through Labours policies and their "need" to please the people for votes.

FG's leader hid in the bushes and has already made one major gaff over the whole European bail out thing.

Its easy to vote for style when there seems to be no substance available...

Holes have been torn through Labours policies for months now everytime they engage with anyone. A matter of fact, very little was said about Labours policies last night apart from them flip flopping the whole time.

You can say Enda hid in the bushes or you can say he gave two fingers to the media by not bowing to their demands.

My fear is that people would have viewed the debate last night, saw that MM won and decide to cast their vote for FF.
MM could very well have beaten EK in a debate, but that doesn't mean their policies are any better or the country will be any better - just that MM is better at convincing people that he is right (again, think Jim Jones).

COUCH WARRIOR · 09-02-2011 9:22am

SB-08 wrote: »

... Martin surprised us by attacking and it took Gilmore by surprise...

I seen this point made a few time times on the tread. I'm surprised that anyone is surprised that Martin went on the attack.

I've never been impressed by Gilmore and he showed why again this evening.

He failed to win this debate which should have been a cakewalk by failing to debate. All he does is repeat the same old talking points over and over. It's as though he hasn't the intelect to react to the point been made and come up with a suitable retort.

VB will eviscerate him, if he decides to go for him. Gilmore won't be able to cry sexism like Burton did.

K_user · 09-02-2011 10:13am

MaceFace wrote: »

You can say Enda hid in the bushes or you can say he gave two fingers to the media by not bowing to their demands.

No, what Enda and FG did was play it safe.

They believe that they are going to be the next Government of Ireland, thanks to the general level of public unrest with FF. Anything that Kenny says publicly will only hurt them from now on. Silence is the best policy.

Last night was Endas night. For the past number of years all the man has done is complain and b*tch about FF. It was time for him to step up to the mark and prove his point. But he didn't. Large open goal and he hid in the locker room where it was safe.

Is this how the Government of Ireland should be decided?

How will Enda cope if he's in charge of the country and the IMF come knocking to have a chat? Will he tell them that he has a previous engagement with a tidy towns committee in Louth?

K_user · 09-02-2011 10:16am

And just to point out, had it been MM that refused to show up, then there would have been a public out cry for his head. The same people defending Kenny would have started screaming "I told you so, I told you so, I told you so"...

Again a small, but important point.

Dai John · 09-02-2011 10:25am

According to Ireland am this morning Martin scored twice as much as Gilmore. But remember, Martin was part of the old gang that put us here, and a conman has to sound good to make a living.

alphasun · 09-02-2011 10:32am

Bejabers, Enda never put a foot wrong!

09-02-2011 10:41am

It's a pretty poor reflection on Gilmore sadly.
He was useless.

Martin had him sized up as a populist worse than Bertie.
He nailed him on taxes and on the extra borrowing and thats all he needed to do.

As for Kenny,I think I heard a commentator sum up his position in that we all expect him to be terrible on TV and thats already discounted in the polls.
It's why FG are in the low to mid 30's instead of the low to mid 40's.

K_user · 09-02-2011 10:49am

alphasun wrote: »

Bejabers, Enda never put a foot wrong!

He never put a foot in the door!

JP Liz V1 · 09-02-2011 10:55am

I only watched part of it and tbh I thought it was crap

Did Martin ever acknowledge and apologise for what him and his party did?

jacool · 09-02-2011 10:57am

Deleted User wrote: »

Martin had him sized up as a populist worse than Bertie.

And yet Micheál Martin worshipped the little Drumcondra man for years. Does he secretly worship Gilmore now?

K-9 · 09-02-2011 11:03am

Deleted User wrote: »

As for Kenny,I think I heard a commentator sum up his position in that we all expect him to be terrible on TV and thats already discounted in the polls.
It's why FG are in the low to mid 30's instead of the low to mid 40's.

So basically, its a core FG vote?

I'm not sure, he still has to face 2 debates so could lose more support, unlikely as that is with Gilmore and FF as the other leaders!

K_user · 09-02-2011 11:08am

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

I only watched part of it and tbh I thought it was crap

Did Martin ever acknowledge and apologise for what him and his party did?

Did the banks or the developers or everyone who ran up ridiculous amounts of credit debt?

Apologising would lead to a media frenzy. People would start demanding to know EXACTLY what they were apologising for. And if they didn't like the answer then there would be an outcry.

When people are looking for blood, show strength.

MaceFace · 09-02-2011 11:09am

K_user wrote: »

No, what Enda and FG did was play it safe.

They believe that they are going to be the next Government of Ireland, thanks to the general level of public unrest with FF. Anything that Kenny says publicly will only hurt them from now on. Silence is the best policy.

Last night was Endas night. For the past number of years all the man has done is complain and b*tch about FF. It was time for him to step up to the mark and prove his point. But he didn't. Large open goal and he hid in the locker room where it was safe.

Is this how the Government of Ireland should be decided?

How will Enda cope if he's in charge of the country and the IMF come knocking to have a chat? Will he tell them that he has a previous engagement with a tidy towns committee in Louth?

Gilmore had a large open goal in front of him last night and failed because the opponent was a much better debater. His constant attack on Labour kept Gilmore on the defensive. Gilmore was not capable of dealing with this approach and thus failed.
It is very possible that the same would have become EK last night. If he did turn up and MM was adjudged to have won the debate, it could have damaged FG in the polls.
As it was, MM done great damage to the idea of Gilmore for Taoiseach and as a result Enda benefited.

Lets see if the polls show if Enda benefited from not turning up.

K_user wrote: »

And just to point out, had it been MM that refused to show up, then there would have been a public out cry for his head. The same people defending Kenny would have started screaming "I told you so, I told you so, I told you so"...

Again a small, but important point.

I don't think the public would have cared - it would have been the media and the FF supporters doing the complaining.
MM has nothing to lose by engaging the opposition - his party is already at historic lows, they have no chane of leading the next government, and there is a belief that their support can not go any lower. It would be foolish for MM not to turn up.
I don't think the vast majority of the public have any interest in listening to what FF have to say at this point.

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

I only watched part of it and tbh I thought it was crap

Did Martin ever acknowledge and apologise for what him and his party did?

I agree - I think it was the annoraks that thought it was great.
The only thing I learned from last night is Gilmore is definitely not up to the job. In particular his debate about Honahans report was very poor. He replied to Martin that it was not "exactly what Honohan had said", but never clarified for the viewer what the actual advise from Honahan was.

Balmed Out · 09-02-2011 11:18am

thought martin was better not from being a better debater but from having a better understanding of whats going on and needs to be done. Thought gilmore went out to try to appear more statesmanly then he normally does and dropped the ball on being prepared for the actual issues

Liam Byrne · 09-02-2011 11:29am

K_user wrote: »

Last night MM tore a hole through Labours policies and their "need" to please the people for votes.

Given where FF are in the polls and the fact that they ruined the country, Martin knows he can't "please" enough people, and therefore factored that into his performance.

If FF had a fighting chance, then Martin would have been just as - to coin a word that has taken on a snide meaning - "populist".

K_user · 09-02-2011 11:51am

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Given where FF are in the polls and the fact that they ruined the country, Martin knows he can't "please" enough people, and therefore factored that into his performance.

If FF had a fighting chance, then Martin would have been just as - to coin a word that has taken on a snide meaning - "populist".

I'd completely agree.

I've said it already, not sure in which thread though, politicians are all about being "populist".

stee.mc79 · 09-02-2011 12:06pm

I don't think poitics matters to anyone anymore, asked the lads In work did they watch the debate last night, all I may as well have asked them how ISAC finished y.day.
The main thing they do know is that 1 as corrupt as the other, and know not to vote FF. As for the other parties I don't think there doing enough to get through to these types of voters. This is where this election campaign is going to be won or lost. Not by tv debates. So neither party has won or lost.
Also I havent had 1 campaigner call to my door telling me what there about where there party is going to leed this country so I myself am none the wiser! Of which way to vote and who's more likely to keep there empty promises.

K_user · 09-02-2011 12:11pm

stee.mc79 wrote: »

I don't think poitics matters to anyone anymore, asked the lads In work did they watch the debate last night, all I may as well have asked them how ISAC finished y.day.

Thats sad.

stee.mc79 wrote: »

The main thing they do know is that 1 as corrupt as the other, and know not to vote FF.

And thats sad too. They need to know what they are not voting for, else we all fall into the same trap.

Laminations · 09-02-2011 12:11pm

stee.mc79 wrote: »

I don't think poitics matters to anyone anymore, asked the lads In work did they watch the debate last night, all I may as well have asked them how ISAC finished y.day.
The main thing they do know is that 1 as corrupt as the other, and know not to vote FF. As for the other parties I don't think there doing enough to get through to these types of voters. This is where this election campaign is going to be won or lost. Not by tv debates. So neither party has won or lost.
Also I havent had 1 campaigner call to my door telling me what there about where there party is going to leed this country so I myself am none the wiser! Of which way to vote and who's more likely to keep there empty promises.

Are you ever going to get through to these types of voters? Interest in politics is something YOU show, and you act on it by seeking out information. You think after the years of FF fvcking this country that we'd all be showing a little bit more interest in what our parties stand for rather than expect to be spoonfed while we sit on the couch. People need to take responsibility for their vote and educate themselves.

stee.mc79 · 09-02-2011 12:22pm

K_user wrote: »

Thats sad.

And thats sad too. They need to know what they are not voting for, else we all fall into the same trap.

I think it's sad to that's the way it is at the moment, the political leaders are hardly inspiring ether Are they?

Laminations wrote: »

Are you ever going to get through to these types of voters? Interest in politics is something YOU show, and you act on it by seeking out information. You think after the years of FF fvcking this country that we'd all be showing a little bit more interest in what our parties stand for rather than expect to be spoonfed while we sit on the couch. People need to take responsibility for their vote and educate themselves.

That's the problem is trying to get people to show interest anymore. As I said above it's up to the leaders to build confidence in the voting public, none of which they have done

''Leader's'' Debate - TV3 - 8.00PM

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