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Garda asking for name

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Comments

  • #92
    WildOscar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 396 ✭✭WildOscar


    Jo King wrote: »
    Common decency would require that the guard give his name first, before asking for a name where he has no statutory right or power to ask it.
    nice one Jo King, what a sentence, hit the nail on the head and all in one sentence


  • #93
    WildOscar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 396 ✭✭WildOscar


    k_mac wrote: »
    Well Gardaí are always identifiable by their shoulder numbers. If it was a plain clothes garda with no identifying marks they should show their ID first. But what I've been saying is that even if they do have a statutory power they will ask first. The persons response will give the Gardaí an indication of their personality. Even without a statutory power the gardaí have a right to investigate any crime by talking to any person. So they always have a right to ask and only need to invoke a statutory power if the person refuses to answer.
    and what will the fact the cop did not first give his name tell about his personality? What is he hiding? Why? Also shoulder numbers are not always visible if the cop is taller


  • #94
    WildOscar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 396 ✭✭WildOscar


    Reloc8 wrote: »
    Gardai have something like a right to ask for someone's name, arising not from the fact that they are gardai, but in the same terms and on the same basis as any citizen has something like a right to do so, i.e. 'the right' if it is a right, as opposed to an opportunity, to approach another citizen and speak to them.

    The citizen in question has the full right to ignore the request, or decline to give their name in those circumstances.

    Gardai have various statutory powers exercisable in defined circumstances to require of persons that they provide their name and other details.

    In the absence of that power being invoked, validly, the person in question has no obligation to comply.

    And, importantly, if a garda asks for my name and I decline to give it, that in and of itself does not give him any right or power whatsoever to require me to provide it. To say that a garda can invoke a statutory power in those simple circumstances is absolutely not true
    .......
    A person might choose to engage with the garda request for their name, or a person might not. That's liberty.

    Gardai have no basis for taking umbrage or offence at the notion that a person might choose not to provide their details in the absence of the valid exercise of a statutory power.
    without the garda making any decisions about his personality


  • #95
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    WildOscar wrote: »
    and what will the fact the cop did not first give his name tell about his personality? What is he hiding? Why? Also shoulder numbers are not always visible if the cop is taller

    Nothing much. But if you ask it and it isn't given then that would say something about them.


  • #96
    WildOscar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 396 ✭✭WildOscar


    prinz wrote: »
    Isn't that the truth.

    Been stopped once, late one night/early one morning had a squad car pull, got asked the usual, name, where was I coming from, where was I going to... answered all truthfully, no problems, had a bit of banter. Asked what they were looking for and he told me he couldn't really say, had some more banter (asking if I'd passed anyone/seen anything out of the ordinary etc) in the end they told me they had goten reports of a 'person of interest' on foot in the same area where there'd been a string of burglaries the few nights before.

    More often than not they can't tell you the exact reason they want your information for operational reasons. It would be too easy to tell someone what they are doing and have that person go and tip off who they are looking for to scarper.
    there is no obligation to tell where you have been or are coming from even if you are obliged to give name when driving


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  • #97
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    WildOscar wrote: »
    without the garda making any decisions about his personality

    If you ask someone a question and they ignore you or tell you to **** off I think you can tell a great deal about their personality, wether you are a Garda or not.


  • #98
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    WildOscar wrote: »
    there is no obligation to tell where you have been or are coming from even if you are obliged to give name when driving

    He never said he was obliged to tell them. He said he was asked and he replied. Some people have no problem helping the Gardaí and being polite.


  • #99
    ILA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 542 ✭✭✭ILA


    k_mac wrote: »
    Nothing much. But if you ask it and it isn't given then that would say something about them.
    I don't think you should have a right to make a characther judgement which could influence you in your professional capacity.

    What if I asked you why you required my name or if I explained that I would have to respectfully refuse to give you my name because I do not trust the organisation which you unforunately represent?
    He never said he was obliged to tell them. He said he was asked and he replied. Some people have no problem helping the Gardaí and being polite.
    Yeah, sheeple are good.


  • #100
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    ILA wrote: »
    I don't think you should have a right to make a characther judgement which could influence you in your professional capacity.

    What if I asked you why you required my name or if I explained that I would have to respectfully refuse to give you my name because I do not trust the organisation you represent?

    If I had a statutory power I would then invoke it. I couldn't give a toss who you trust nor would I have any interest in listening to your rant about how you hate the Gardaí. i'm sure you have your reasons but they have nothing to do with me as i have never met you.

    ILA wrote: »
    Yeah, sheeple are good.

    Actually it's called a community. That's how they work. What's the point in having a police force if you do not assist them to do their job?


  • #101
    WildOscar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 396 ✭✭WildOscar


    k_mac wrote: »
    If you ask someone a question and they ignore you or tell you to **** off I think you can tell a great deal about their personality, wether you are a Garda or not.
    i never mentioned anything about f*** off but have heard garda talking like that to a schoolboy who was apparently mitching. If you ask a question and they politely ask what law you are asking under what does that say about personality?


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  • #102
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    WildOscar wrote: »
    there is no obligation to tell where you have been or are coming from even if you are obliged to give name when driving

    So? I have nothing to hide. I got asked and volunteered that information.


  • #103
    ILA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 542 ✭✭✭ILA


    k_mac wrote: »
    If I had a statutory power I would then invoke it. I couldn't give a toss who you trust nor would I have any interest in listening to your rant about how you hate the Gardaí. i'm sure you have your reasons but they have nothing to do with me as i have never met you.
    Well that would be fine then, and I would fully comply with that.
    k_mac wrote:
    Actually it's called a community. That's how they work. What's the point in having a police force if you do not assist them to do their job?
    I wouldn't mind if we didn't have one to be honest. The community can look after itself.


  • #104
    WildOscar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 396 ✭✭WildOscar


    ILA wrote: »
    I don't think you should have a right to make a characther judgement which could influence you in your professional capacity.
    +1
    What if I asked you why you required my name or if I explained that I would have to respectfully refuse to give you my name because I do not trust the organisation which you unforunately represent?

    this sems to have been called rant but i agree unless the garda gives his name and the law he is acting under. That would not take much time


  • #105
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    ILA wrote: »
    I wouldn't mind if we didn't have one to be honest. The community can look after itself.

    Along with a few nail-studded baseball bats and handguns no doubt.


  • #106
    WildOscar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 396 ✭✭WildOscar


    prinz wrote: »
    Is it a freakish coincidence that the people with the biggest chip on their shoulders in general are also the ones who tend to claim to have the most issues with AGS?
    rubbish you do not have the evidenc e to makle that about anyone here unless you judge the personality by a knowledge of rights. where do the cops who bully and abuse their power have the chip?


  • #107
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    WildOscar wrote: »
    rubbish you do not have the evidenc e to makle that about anyone here unless you judge the personality by a knowledge of rights. where do the cops who bully and abuse their power have the chip?

    You are confusing a knowledge of rights and the appropriate exercise of said rights.


  • #108
    WildOscar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 396 ✭✭WildOscar


    k_mac wrote: »
    Nothing much. But if you ask it and it isn't given then that would say something about them.
    agreed if you mean that if the garda does not give his name it says something about them


  • #109
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    WildOscar wrote: »
    i never mentioned anything about f*** off but have heard garda talking like that to a schoolboy who was apparently mitching. If you ask a question and they politely ask what law you are asking under what does that say about personality?

    It would say that you have no interest in helping unless you are legally obliged to.
    ILA wrote: »
    Well that would be fine then, and I would fully comply with that.

    I wouldn't mind if we didn't have one to be honest. The community can look after itself.

    Yeah because that worked great in the North. Imagine a murderer having the cheek to kneecap someone for dealing a bit of hash? It's almost comical in it's hypocricy.

    I reckon we have strayed into the relams of politics here though. If you would like to start a thread on the benefits of republican paramilitary rule over in the politics thread I will join you there. As to the ops question I think it has been answered.


  • #110
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    WildOscar wrote: »
    agreed if you mean that if the garda does not give his name it says something about them

    Yes i see no real reason why a garda should not give out his name. In practice though it can haunt you. People tend to remember only one name. I once gave my name to a man who ran a business I was looking for cctv from. That man then used my name on an insurance claim to state he had made a report to me about a theft. Same thing happened again when I gave a woman advice about domestic violence orders. Gave her a card with my name on it for if she had any more questions and she made a complaint to the Ombudsman about me for something completely unrelated which I had no connection with. All because I had given her my name and it was the only one she could remember.


  • #111
    WildOscar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 396 ✭✭WildOscar


    k_mac wrote: »
    Yes i see no real reason why a garda should not give out his name. In practice though it can haunt you. People tend to remember only one name. I once gave my name to a man who ran a business I was looking for cctv from. That man then used my name on an insurance claim to state he had made a report to me about a theft. Same thing happened again when I gave a woman advice about domestic violence orders. Gave her a card with my name on it for if she had any more questions and she made a complaint to the Ombudsman about me for something completely unrelated which I had no connection with. All because I had given her my name and it was the only one she could remember.
    OK
    but do you not think it would haunt a civilian more if not told why a name was taken. You have the protection of being a garda and could investigate/prosecute the people you mention above as they were false allegations. If innocent in relation to a complaint to the Ombudsman you should be able to defend yourself from it.

    What about civilians who are haunted by abuse from garda and have no comeback as the garda close ranks. the garda who abused me mistook me for someone else but even if i was the guilty one he had no right to abuse me. The garda i saw abusing the boy mitching from school had no right to use abusive language to him. He may have had authority over him re mitching, I do not know, but garda do not have authority to abuse anyone. They can only enforce the law without being abusive


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  • #112
    WildOscar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 396 ✭✭WildOscar


    prinz wrote: »
    You are confusing a knowledge of rights and the appropriate exercise of said rights.
    you have no right to say people have chip on shoulder because they know their rights and exercise them


  • #113
    WildOscar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 396 ✭✭WildOscar


    k_mac wrote: »
    It would say that you have no interest in helping unless you are legally obliged to..
    i don't think so that is you making is judgement about someone


  • #114
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    WildOscar wrote: »
    i don't think so that is you making is judgement about someone

    So?


  • #115
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    So to conclude, you don't legally have to give the Garda your name all the time.


  • #116
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    So to conclude, you don't legally have to give the Garda your name all the time.

    Yes, unless they make a lawful demand for your details under a statutory power you are not legally obliged to give your name.


  • #117
    MajorMax
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 865 ✭✭✭MajorMax


    I would not give any personal details to a Guard just because he asked me. I have nothing to hide but I value my rights and civil liberties. I simply don't trust Guards.
    I was brought up in a small town in the midlands to respect the Guards, this attitude has been erroded by my actual dealings with them, as an institution they are at best inept and at worst hopelessly corrupt.


  • #118
    blackcoat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60 ✭✭blackcoat


    MajorMax wrote: »
    I would not give any personal details to a Guard just because he asked me. I have nothing to hide but I value my rights and civil liberties. I simply don't trust Guards.
    I was brought up in a small town in the midlands to respect the Guards, this attitude has been erroded by my actual dealings with them, as an institution they are at best inept and at worst hopelessly corrupt.

    What an absolutely ridiculous, unsubstantiated allegation.

    'Hopelessly corrupt' - It is an unfortunate reality that some individuals join the Gardai for the wrong reasons and a very small number of these engage in conduct which is unacceptable. But I can reasonably speculate that nobody dislikes these members more than the honest, hardworking guards who joined the force for the right reasons.

    'At best inept' - there are some outstanding members of the Gardai who do magnificent work. From drug investigations that have been praised by police forces and courts all over the world to the criminal assets bureau that has inspired several forces to follow suit to, perhaps most importantly, the guards who do brilliant work in their communities.

    I have seen firsthand the effects of some of the community policing initiatives the guards have implemented with young people from less affluent areas and there is nothing inept about it. Some guards work tirelessly at strengthening relations with the residents in their communities and do some great, invaluable work.

    How dare you make a sweeping generalisation of some 15,000 members because you're bitter about your past 'dealings' with Guards. This probably involved you getting a speeding ticket or some other event you weren't man enough to accept the consequences of so you blame the guards. And not just the ones you encountered, but all of them.


    You're post is absolutely ridiculous.


  • #119
    minidazzler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,650 ✭✭✭✭minidazzler


    KeepTheFaith wrote: »
    Your right to privacy (and I use the term loosely as your identity and place of residence is hardly private, no harm could possibly come to you buy sharing such basic details) trumps the rights of the possible victim of a crime that could have occurred in the area? I find it disgustingly selfish that you would refuse to give up such a minor right for the good of public safety. Yet I'm sure you would have no problem showing a bouncer ID if you were entering a pub or club.
    The Gardai rely on public co-operation to make their inquiries. Thank God everyone doesn't go around with your attitude. Maybe if this does happen in future you could consider that the inquiry they are making could be to find someone who attacked a young woman who could have been your sister or girlfriend, and for the purposes of the investigation they can't give any details.
    Or maybe you'll just say "No I don't have to tell you my name" and walk away happy that your precious right to keep yourself to yourself is completely intact. "Tough" indeed..

    No my right to privacy doesn't trump the rights of the victim. They are on par in my opinion. I have no problem answering general questions. But I will want to know why they want my name. If I am just walking down the street minding my own business, I don't know why they would want my name, and just as if anyone else asked me for it, I generally would not tell it.

    If I am going into a bar, I am choosing to reveal my identity should I be asked for ID, if I don't want to, I can walk away from the bouncer on the door. I now know I can do the same for a member of the Gardai, unless they have reasons to ask me beyond being curious.

    I will co-operate with a Garda just fine, but I don't want my name in their little black book without knowing why it is going in there, and if they had reason to get mine, I would take down their own details too.

    I'm not gonna presume what the Garda is investigating ever. I know they are probably doing a bangup job from my experiences, most are honest and hardworking, and except for one I have met, I have found most to be personable. But giving my name to a Garda is not the same as giving it to someone on the street. They will keep it for whatever reason I don't know, they will keep it written down. That's why I don't want to give it without a good reason.

    I would simply tell them, that as I am not legally obligated to do so, I am not comfortable giving my name in their investigation. If I have information for them regarding a crime they are asking about, I will generally offer up such information, but if I know nothing, I don't see a reason to.
    k_mac wrote: »
    But how much convincing would you need? Would being told that a crime has been committed nearby be enough or would you want details of the crime?

    I would want to know why they think it involves me. I'm not a voyeur for crime, it wouldn't be too hard for them to give me a reason without going into specifics. Gardai, contrary to the belief around where I live, are usually not stupid people.


  • #120
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 653 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The fact that you would consider your right to "privacy" to be on a par with the right of (for example) the bodily integrity of a young woman not to be assaulted or an elderly person not to be terrorised in their own home baffles me. You are showing an astounding lack of perspective and common sense.


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  • #121
    stephendevlin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,307 ✭✭✭stephendevlin


    KeepTheFaith wrote: »
    Some people lack manners, .

    Guards included.!!! You must have had all so pleasant experiences with them! I dont see a doctor abusing his power / position too often


This discussion has been closed.
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