Garda asking for name

WildOscar

MajorMax wrote: »

I would not give any personal details to a Guard just because he asked me. I have nothing to hide but I value my rights and civil liberties. I simply don't trust Guards.
I was brought up in a small town in the midlands to respect the Guards, this attitude has been erroded by my actual dealings with them, as an institution they are at best inept and at worst hopelessly corrupt.

+1

WildOscar

stephendevlin wrote: »

Guards included.!!!

+1

You must have had all so pleasant experiences with them!

or joined

WildOscar

blackcoat wrote: »

What an absolutely ridiculous, unsubstantiated allegation.

'Hopelessly corrupt' - It is an unfortunate reality that some individuals join the Gardai for the wrong reasons and a very small number of these engage in conduct which is unacceptable. But I can reasonably speculate that nobody dislikes these members more than the honest, hardworking guards who joined the force for the right reasons.

'At best inept' - there are some outstanding members of the Gardai who do magnificent work. From drug investigations that have been praised by police forces and courts all over the world to the criminal assets bureau that has inspired several forces to follow suit to, perhaps most importantly, the guards who do brilliant work in their communities.

I have seen firsthand the effects of some of the community policing initiatives the guards have implemented with young people from less affluent areas and there is nothing inept about it. Some guards work tirelessly at strengthening relations with the residents in their communities and do some great, invaluable work.

How dare you make a sweeping generalisation of some 15,000 members because you're bitter about your past 'dealings' with Guards. This probably involved you getting a speeding ticket or some other event you weren't man enough to accept the consequences of so you blame the guards. And not just the ones you encountered, but all of them.


You're post is absolutely ridiculous.

no its not and is likely to be experience in all small towns. seen garda drinking and driving, they are the ones who would tell others not to. just because they do invaluable work does not mean they do not also abuse their position

stephendevlin

blackcoat wrote: »

I have seen firsthand the effects of some of the community policing initiatives the guards have implemented with young people from less affluent areas and there is nothing inept about it. Some guards work tirelessly at strengthening relations with the residents in their communities and do some great, invaluable work.

Some guards (not all) Not to worried about ya. Give cheeky answers to your complaints and most times are rude.

I know a lot of guards and most of them are lovely and I would have great time for. But some.... OHHH boy...

minidazzler

KeepTheFaith wrote: »

The fact that you would consider your right to "privacy" to be on a par with the right of (for example) the bodily integrity of a young woman not to be assaulted or an elderly person not to be terrorised in their own home baffles me. You are showing an astounding lack of perspective and common sense.

I would consider all fundemental rights to be on par with eachother. I hold my right to privacy VERY high, so I also hold a womans right to her own body VERY high. Given how I treat my privacy I don't think that my perspective is skewed. I consider these things to be a birthright, not a privilage, not to be taken away by ANYONE. So it's not like I am reducing what I think of sexual assault.

That said, if a Garda enquired to me about me seeing anything suspicious I would answer them, as I said, I just want to know a reason they want MY name and address. I NEVER said I would not help them.

minidazzler

minidazzler wrote: »

I would consider all fundemental rights to be on par with eachother. I hold my right to privacy VERY high, so I also hold a womans right to her own body VERY high. Given how I treat my privacy I don't think that my perspective is skewed. I consider these things to be a birthright, not a privilage, not to be taken away by ANYONE. So it's not like I am reducing what I think of sexual assault.

That said, if a Garda enquired to me about me seeing anything suspicious I would answer them, as I said, I just want to know a reason they want MY name and address. I NEVER said I would not help them.

Thankfully the Law disagrees with you.

Pkiernan

minidazzler wrote: »

... I hold my right to privacy VERY high, so I also hold a womans right to her own body VERY high. ....

We have gone from discussing giving a Guard your name to abortion in 9 pages! Must be a record!!

hession.law

Some advice to the OP it is pointliess posting anything on this forum about the AGS. It is very evident from this tread the comradery among them, and the indifference of the so called good ones makes me sick. As for going to the ombudsman, this is a very bad idea as if nothing comes of it you will be "harrased" have we all forgetten about what happened in Donegal. There are three people from my school of which I know are are now members of the "force" two of which were trouble makers and thugs and now walk around like they are untouchable. The third was going to become a beautician but I guess this was the easier job. I feel so lucky to know they are keeping the peace.

Turner

I was wondering how long it would be before somebody brought up Donegal!! Don't forget abbylara too!!

It is definitely time to close the thread.


Op, yes you do gave to give your name if the Garda invokes a statutory power, and there are many of these.

blackcoat

Ah Donegal..the old reliable for the Guard haters.

What I'd love to know is what were these other incidents of corruption and abuse of power that have instilled such a deep seated resentment of the guards in some posters.

Hession.law - we only know for sure that a couple of the posters in this thread are guards and there is no evidence of simply 'comradery' shaping their opinions. They, unlike you, have all rationally explained their opinions and points on the matter.

It seems most people are in a consensus that while there are some individuals in the force not fit to be guards, there are also some outstanding ones.

But no, that's not enough for the guard haters (you had to add your disclaimer of 'so-called' good ones. Pathetic). It has to be ALL of them and ALL of the public has to resent and refuse to cooperate with them.

Ever think your bias and small mindedness might be part of the problem?

hession.law

blackcoat wrote: »

Ah Donegal..the old reliable for the Guard haters.

What I'd love to know is what were these other incidents of corruption and abuse of power that have instilled such a deep seated resentment of the guards in some posters.

Hession.law - we only know for sure that a couple of the posters in this thread are guards and there is no evidence of simply 'comradery' shaping their opinions. They, unlike you, have all rationally explained their opinions and points on the matter.

It seems most people are in a consensus that while there are some individuals in the force not fit to be guards, there are also some outstanding ones.

But no, that's not enough for the guard haters (you had to add your disclaimer of 'so-called' good ones. Pathetic). It has to be ALL of them and ALL of the public has to resent and refuse to cooperate with them.

Ever think your bias and small mindedness might be part of the problem?

Oh yes because I am small minded we have corrupted Gardai. If you can point out anything untrue in my post I will happily retract. Why on God's earth does anyone think its ok for even one member of the AGS to be corrupt, and yes that is what you imply when you try to defend it by saying this tiring cliche there not all bad. Should they not be the most outstanding and honorable people in society? Just BTW what is it that you would like me to qualify?

blackcoat

hession.law wrote: »

Oh yes because I am small minded we have corrupted Gardai. If you can point out anything untrue in my post I will happily retract. Why on God's earth does anyone think its ok for even one member of the AGS to be corrupt, and yes that is what you imply when you try to defend it by saying this tiring cliche there not all bad. Should they not be the most outstanding and honorable people in society? Just BTW what is it that you would like me to qualify?

That's a very selective (and once again biased) interpretation of my post.

I did no such thing suggest or imply that it was ok for there to be even one corrupt Garda. On the contrary I have clearly expressed my utter contempt for those members and would support any member of the public (or Garda for that matter) who pursued the appropriate course of action to deal with any incident of abuse.

However, I, unlike you, am also willing to acknowledge that on the opposite end of the scale there are some magnificent members doing great work and there are members who do do all they can to change that aspect of policing culture.

That sort of change doesn't happen easily and isn't aided by people like you who will continue to attempt to scanalise the ENTIRE force in the face of any efforts for reform.

Bosco boy

stephendevlin wrote: »

Guards included.!!! You must have had all so pleasant experiences with them! I dont see a doctor abusing his power / position too often

get out from behind that computer

Bosco boy

stephendevlin wrote: »

Some guards (not all) Not to worried about ya. Give cheeky answers to your complaints and most times are rude.

I know a lot of guards and most of them are lovely and I would have great time for. But some.... OHHH boy...

Maybe you come across a bit rude to them as well

WildOscar

Bosco boy wrote: »

get out from behind that computer

join him

Bosco boy

NEWSFLASH!!!!!!! Not all guards are perfect! they are recuited from the general public and reflect our society like other professions.

stephendevlin

Bosco boy wrote: »

Maybe you come across a bit rude to them as well

Yeah Yeah .. :rolleyes:

stephendevlin

Bosco boy wrote: »

NEWSFLASH!!!!!!! Not all guards are perfect! they are recuited from the general public and reflect our society like other professions.

:eek: You Serious?

Laisurg

I don't think you actually have to but i wouldn't suggest refusing, its just your name and if they're asking for it the chances are that they're looking for someone around the area so you just give them your name, or address etc and they should move on , wouldn't say they'd normally ask for an address though, only happened to me once and that was on paddys night.

WildOscar

An ex garda wrote a book and said she was told not to give parking tickets to supers wife at a shopping centre. Why is supers wife above law?

Bosco boy

WildOscar wrote: »

An ex garda wrote a book and said she was told not to give parking tickets to supers wife at a shopping centre. Why is supers wife above law?

Let's have a tribunal!

WildOscar

Bosco boy wrote: »

Let's have a tribunal!

bet you would not say that if an non garda was illegally parked

Bosco boy

Keep your money in your pocket!

Reloc8

A lot of the issues which people who are, to be fair, neither criminally orientated nor trouble makers, have with providing name and details on eh 'request' by a member of AGS comes from a total lack of clarity on the part of the force (that is to say its leadership) as to the following ;-

- are you keeping a record of this encounter/interaction ?
- will you create a record of it on PULSE ?
- or anywhere else ?
- for how long ?
- for what purpose ?
- on what legal basis ?
- to whom will it be disclosed ?
- for what purpose ?


Those arn't unreasonable questions, and its not for the ordinary garda on the street to answer them either, notwithstanding that as with many situations they are the ones who have to front up to the issues caused by the lack of clarity.

Bosco boy

I'd simply put it down to snobbery in the vast majority of cases. If I asked someone their name on the street it would be for a legal reason, if they failed to provide it or gave me a false name I would arrest them after explaining why i'm was asking and I would tell them of the consequences. Then I can assure you there would be a record of the incident. They may well also be charged with the offence. I couldn't give a rats ass who they are if they are not committing an offence or unless I have reasonable cause to believe they are. Most of the times i've encountered this is in public order situations. The celtic tiger cubs were particular offenders. By the way its the ordinary garda on the street that will be asking the question and they will be responsible for their own actions. They will take their actions based on their reading of the situation and knowledge of the law. They will decide what course it will take, the super or sergeant wont snap the notebook out of their hand when they come in and put it on pulse.

MajorMax

blackcoat wrote: »

What an absolutely ridiculous, unsubstantiated allegation.

'Hopelessly corrupt' - It is an unfortunate reality that some individuals join the Gardai for the wrong reasons and a very small number of these engage in conduct which is unacceptable. But I can reasonably speculate that nobody dislikes these members more than the honest, hardworking guards who joined the force for the right reasons.

'At best inept' - there are some outstanding members of the Gardai who do magnificent work. From drug investigations that have been praised by police forces and courts all over the world to the criminal assets bureau that has inspired several forces to follow suit to, perhaps most importantly, the guards who do brilliant work in their communities.

I have seen firsthand the effects of some of the community policing initiatives the guards have implemented with young people from less affluent areas and there is nothing inept about it. Some guards work tirelessly at strengthening relations with the residents in their communities and do some great, invaluable work.

How dare you make a sweeping generalisation of some 15,000 members because you're bitter about your past 'dealings' with Guards. This probably involved you getting a speeding ticket or some other event you weren't man enough to accept the consequences of so you blame the guards. And not just the ones you encountered, but all of them.


You're post is absolutely ridiculous.

My post is based on my actual personal and professional dealings with Guards. I'm not bitter, far from it. I have seen Guards use their positions to extort goods and services, I have seen Guards flout the law and laugh about it. I have seen Guards assault innocent members of the public. I have seen Guards cover for each and lie in a court of law. None of these things happen to me but I have seen them and on more than one occassion or locality. I have seen these things from Cork to Donegal.
I have no criminal convictions, not even so much as a parking ticket. However in the course of my Job I have had extensive dealings with Guards in a professional and social setting, dealings which have formed my opinion of Guards.
You don't know me or my experiences. I have met one Guard in my lifetime that I would hold up as a shining beacon of truth and justice and an example to other Guards. He was a Sergeant in the midlands in the 80's
Power corrupts, for too long the actions of the Guards was excused as "For the greater good". if you are unable or unwilling to accept this, tough.
In all fairness I would lean towards inept rather than corrupt. Go talk to the Morris & Barr tribunals, I'm sure it was all a misunderstanding.
"The Tribunal has been staggered by the amount of indiscipline and insubordination it has found in the Garda force. There is a small, but disproportionately influential, core of mischief-making members who will not obey orders, who will not follow procedures, who will not tell the truth and who have no respect for their officers ”
—Justice Frederick Morris, Chairman and Sole Member of The Morris Tribunal,

Then there's the Murphy report and of course the Policing of the Corrib gas protests.

I'm sure that of the 14,411 Guards. There are some exemplory officers, but as I said and you ignored, my opinion is based on my personal experiences of encountering Guards. Stay lucky

blackcoat

MajorMax wrote: »

My post is based on my actual personal and professional dealings with Guards. I'm not bitter, far from it. I have seen Guards use their positions to extort goods and services, I have seen Guards flout the law and laugh about it. I have seen Guards assault innocent members of the public. I have seen Guards cover for each and lie in a court of law. None of these things happen to me but I have seen them and on more than one occassion or locality. I have seen these things from Cork to Donegal.
I have no criminal convictions, not even so much as a parking ticket. However in the course of my Job I have had extensive dealings with Guards in a professional and social setting, dealings which have formed my opinion of Guards.
You don't know me or my experiences. I have met one Guard in my lifetime that I would hold up as a shining beacon of truth and justice and an example to other Guards. He was a Sergeant in the midlands in the 80's
Power corrupts, for too long the actions of the Guards was excused as "For the greater good". if you are unable or unwilling to accept this, tough.
In all fairness I would lean towards inept rather than corrupt. Go talk to the Morris & Barr tribunals, I'm sure it was all a misunderstanding.
"The Tribunal has been staggered by the amount of indiscipline and insubordination it has found in the Garda force. There is a small, but disproportionately influential, core of mischief-making members who will not obey orders, who will not follow procedures, who will not tell the truth and who have no respect for their officers ”
—Justice Frederick Morris, Chairman and Sole Member of The Morris Tribunal,

Then there's the Murphy report and of course the Policing of the Corrib gas protests.

I'm sure that of the 14,411 Guards. There are some exemplory officers, but as I said and you ignored, my opinion is based on my personal experiences of encountering Guards. Stay lucky

It is clear that your profession sees you have a lot of dealings with Gardai. However, as none of these many, many alleged instances of of abuse and misconduct have happened to you I would venture a wild guess that your work sees you come up 'against' Gardai. This arguably renders your opinion biased.

I could come on here and post a lengthy diatribe about solicitors, barristers, prison officers, probations workers, doctors, nurses, teachers or any other profession and could find several examples to support my claims.
However, it would be absolutely ridiculous to paint all of them with the same brush which is exactly what you continue to do despite adding your disclaimer that 'There are some exemplory officers'. You still maintain that the Gardai are 'at best inept'. I have provided numerous examples that totally refute this and could provide many more.

You on the other hand have simply jumped on a number of well publicised issues which are more the exception than the rule. I have already agreed that what went on in those cases was disgraceful and the vast majority of Gardai would agree also.

Your reference to the Corrib Gas protest completely discredits your post. The Gardais involvement in such protests is never straightforward. To the protestors they are symbolic of the state (or in this case, sigh, Shell) and are the only resistance between them behaving in whatever manner they wish regardless of the law. It doesnt matter what approach Gardai take, some protestors will still see them as the 'enemy' and will abuse, provoke and then lie about Gardai no matter what approach Gardai take. The student fees protests are the perfect example. People shouting 'f**king pigs' etc and throwing things at Guards who more than likely had children in college themselves and oppose the fees as much as the protestors. They simply have to ensure the protest doesnt become illegal and protestors therefore throw their temper tantrums (which often break the law and result in them being arrested). Those are the type of people whose opinions you are relying on to support your still unsubstantiated claim.

There are a huge amount of decent, honest, hardworking Gardai who do magnificent work. Just because it isn't making headlines does not mean it isn't occuring.

So once again, your claim that Gardai are 'at best inept and at worst hopelessly corrupt' is absolutely ridiculous.

Bosco boy

Majormax, I think in fairness you should state what your line of work is that brings you into contact at such a level with gardai to make such claims.

Nehaxak

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

This discussion was intended to be a discussion on whether or not a person was legally obliged to give their name and/or address, not whether they should or not.

That's true but this is also the Gardaí we're talking about here and given your own politics, I'd presume you were handing out leaflets or whatever relating to that in some way (massive assumption there I know).
It's fairly common for the Gardaí to ask your details for no reason other than to compile a dossier on supporters of whatever it is you were promoting. Also, being on the frontline so to speak and handing out leaflets or whatever, you'd be seen as an easy target (I won't go into the exact details here) as you're idealogical enough to publicly present yourself to openly express your views, probably seen as naive too (not saying that personally) and seen to be open to further persuasion to be involved in further activities or perception of same.

The intent would be to either dissuade you from continuing your activities or to in some way use you in the future - assuming you make an issue of it at all.

If you're 100% behind both your views and are willing to take the flack that will come with it all, and it will come, don't for one instant think it won't - then stand up for yourself and refuse to give your name and address (far as I'm aware you're not legally obliged too unless arrested) and don't say much else. Once you're arrested, and you may well be, for whatever reason they've decided to arrest you for - Give your name and address, ask for a solicitor and if you're in fear of being beaten, ask also for a doctor and that your request for a doctor be recorded, at the time you're being given the charges you were arrested for and before you're put in a cell.
Also, please make sure that whatever group it is you're handing out leaflets for, have provided you with contact numbers to call in case of harassment or arrest for same. If they haven't, then ask them too and don't do it unless you've been assured you will be supported if it ever happens.
You're putting yourself out there for them, whoever or whatever they are, so just make sure you have the support behind you from them if things go tits up at all.

Otherwise, my best advice, although not legal and not answering your question - would be to just smile, give your name and address and carry on about your business. Either way they'll get it if they really want it anyway.
If you're content enough in yourself that what you're doing is nothing illegal, that your own involvement is in no way illegal and that your views/politics being expressed are not illegal - however they might offend others' political beliefs, then you've nothing to fear and nothing to be afraid of other than the usual and to be expected. It's a Garda's job to be inquisitive and ask questions, especially of anyone from any political grouping considered even mildly against the norm in Ireland, there's no point pissing them off unless you have serious legal backup who will be available instantly if you were arrested for same. For all the strengths in your beliefs you may have, they might crumble away fast enough when you're in a cell on your own and 8 of them enter it at 3am to "ask you questions".
Be nice, be polite, go with the flow, give your name and address and make polite conversation, just accept it's all a part of the bigger game. Advice I'd give you now, before you end up learning it the harder way and come to the same conclusions eventually yourself anyway. You'll also find if you're nice and polite about everything and take it all in your stride, that a few Gardaí would generally be supportive of your views themselves, maybe not all your views, but chat to some and you'd be mildly surprised - they're not all bad and they are human just doing a job who for most it's not just a standard job but a job they see themselves doing for their country - so don't make them feel they're not part of it according to views you might consider expressing when approached.

I made a lot of assumptions there and apologies if I was wrong in that too, for all I know you could've just been handing out leaflets to do with looking for homes for abandoned puppies

Wolfe Tone

Nehaxak wrote: »

That's true but this is also the Gardaí we're talking about here and given your own politics, I'd presume you were handing out leaflets or whatever relating to that in some way (massive assumption there I know).
It's fairly common for the Gardaí to ask your details for no reason other than to compile a dossier on supporters of whatever it is you were promoting. Also, being on the frontline so to speak and handing out leaflets or whatever, you'd be seen as an easy target (I won't go into the exact details here) as you're idealogical enough to publicly present yourself to openly express your views, probably seen as naive too (not saying that personally) and seen to be open to further persuasion to be involved in further activities or perception of same.

Wow. You dont seem to know what my views are at all, I am not a dissident supporter, I support the GFA.

The intent would be to either dissuade you from continuing your activities or to in some way use you in the future - assuming you make an issue of it at all.

If you're 100% behind both your views and are willing to take the flack that will come with it all, and it will come, don't for one instant think it won't - then stand up for yourself and refuse to give your name and address (far as I'm aware you're not legally obliged too unless arrested) and don't say much else. Once you're arrested, and you may well be, for whatever reason they've decided to arrest you for - Give your name and address, ask for a solicitor and if you're in fear of being beaten, ask also for a doctor and that your request for a doctor be recorded, at the time you're being given the charges you were arrested for and before you're put in a cell.
Also, please make sure that whatever group it is you're handing out leaflets for, have provided you with contact numbers to call in case of harassment or arrest for same. If they haven't, then ask them too and don't do it unless you've been assured you will be supported if it ever happens.
You're putting yourself out there for them, whoever or whatever they are, so just make sure you have the support behind you from them if things go tits up at all.

Ive never handed out any leaflets, I am not a member of any party nor have I ever undertaken any action on behalf of any political group. In actual fact I very rarely discuss politics outside of the internet. It really was just a hypothetical situation!

Ive seen Gards asking people handing out leaflets their name and it was the first thing that popped into my head when thinking of an example to fatten up my original question!