"We are a Catholic country"

Fratton Fred · 24-08-2010 08:46PM

Dostoevsky wrote: »

Not that your own country of Britain would have a ban still in place on a Catholic becoming head of the UK state still in 2010, where as recently as 2007 a Catholic had to become a Protestant in order to allow her Protestant husband to be in line for the British crown and where in 1978 a Protestant was banned from becoming Head of the UK state because he married a Catholic.

Come back to us with your quintessentially British sense of higher moral ground when a Protestant is forbidden under Irish law from becoming President of Ireland.

this thread is about Ireland, where I live. My nationality has nothing to do with the subject does it?

how do you know I'm not a Catholic? there are, after all, more Catholics living in the UK than there are in Ireland.

When did I moralise about Catholicism in Ireland or claim that the UK is a secular country. if you read the rest of my posts, I actually questioned why the RCC involvement in Irish life is seen as a problem.

christ almighty, some people.......:rolleyes:

bleg · 24-08-2010 09:01PM

The majority of people are apparently Catholic.

The majority of people voted for Fianna Fail, does that mean we are a Fianna Fail country?

Donkey Oaty · 24-08-2010 09:27PM

bleg wrote: »

The majority of people voted for Fianna Fail, does that mean we are a Fianna Fail country?

They didn't, but - paradoxically - we are.

Boxoffrogs · 24-08-2010 09:33PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Did you live in Lucan? - If so, there were plenty of ET schools around surely?

Not within walking distance for my son, no, it wasn't an option. He suffers with cartilage problems, which thankfully he is outgrowing so walking is less of problem for him now.

I have acknowledged that I am fortunate in having the option to send my son to a non denominational school, I would like to see many more parents afforded this option.

Jakkass wrote: »

A level playing field could also be provided by allowing all faiths to set up schools where there is demand. I don't see what is so problematic about this.

So to get this straight, we all have the right to send our children to a school which will cater for our religious flavour/or absence of any belief? To make it fair, the state should fund a school for each and every faith or lack thereof. We all know this would not be financially achievable. Oh, but then I note that you added the proviso "where there is the demand", how much demand is enough may I ask?

Jakkass wrote: »

It's not about making anyone less Catholic or any other faith, it's about allowing children to learn and experience Catholicism or any other faith while in school.

On a personal level, I would have no problem with bringing any children to a secular school. Indeed, there are some advantages to knowing what exactly your children are being taught about God.

Having said that I went to two Anglican (CofI) schools, one at primary, and another at secondary, and I can't say it was harmful, and indeed I received a good education.

I do believe that people should be allowed the choice to bring their child to a faith school though.

You are entitled to your views, my view however is that State funded schools should promote healthy inquiry among children, not promote one narrow view of the world. There are many places of worship where the 'Catholic experience' can be enjoyed, it really doesn't have to be present in our school system.

philologos · 24-08-2010 09:40PM

diddledum wrote: »

I have acknowledged that I am fortunate in having the option to send my son to a non denominational school, I would like to see many more parents afforded this option.

Agreed. Lucan if not the best town for secular education in Ireland, is one of the best.

diddledum wrote: »

So to get this straight, we all have the right to send our children to a school which will cater for our religious flavour/or absence of any belief? To make it fair, the state should fund a school for each and every faith or lack thereof. We all know this would not be financially achievable. Oh, but then I note that you added the proviso "where there is the demand", how much demand is enough may I ask?

Where there is sufficient demand. How much demand? Enough parents willing to send their children to a school to warrant its construction.

diddledum wrote: »

You are entitled to your views, my view however is that State funded schools should promote healthy inquiry among children, not promote one narrow view of the world. There are many places of worship where the 'Catholic experience' can be enjoyed, it really doesn't have to be present in our school system.

So, you're willing to admit, that your complaint isn't actually about a lack of choice, but out of a desire to ensure that other parents are coerced to make the same choice as you have?

Donkey Oaty · 24-08-2010 09:51PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

how do you know I'm not a Catholic?

/adjusts secularometer

Clear!

Boxoffrogs · 24-08-2010 10:02PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Where there is sufficient demand. How much demand? Enough parents willing to send their children to a school to warrant its construction.

So seeing this through to it's logical conclusion, there will always be some children who are discriminated against because they are in a minority.

Jakkass wrote: »

So, you're willing to admit, that your complaint isn't actually about a lack of choice, but out of a desire to ensure that other parents are coerced to make the same choice as you have?

No actually, my complaint is actually two-fold or perhaps three-fold. Choice should be available to all or none when it comes to state funding, I know of no Muslim/Jewish/Atheist person who gets a tax break because their children can't attend a school which promotes their religion or lack thereof.

I'm not advocating abolishing faith schools, I just don't think the tax payer should foot the bill.

As for coercion, that's a little rich, the only coercion going on in relation to this issue is the pressure applied to parents to have their children baptised in order for them to meet the criteria for entry into Catholic school.

philstar · 24-08-2010 10:07PM

when are the irish ever going to give up the ghost with Catholicism??

its corrupt from top to bottom

paedo priests, terrorist priests and this guy in his nazi youth uniform

flag123 · 24-08-2010 10:40PM

On paper, most of the people in Ireland are Catholic. http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popnclassbyreligionandnationality2006.htm

Therefore, people see it as a Catholic country. But in recent years were religion plays less of a role in the lives of the Irish people, we tend to look at it as a free state which is not run by Catholicism, like any other country in the Western World.

Donkey Oaty · 24-08-2010 10:45PM

philstar wrote: »

when are the irish ever going to give up the ghost with Catholicism??

its corrupt from top to bottom

paedo priests, terrorist priests and this guy in his nazi youth uniform

Steady on, lad. I'm Irish. I don't subscribe to Catholicism in the way you have portrayed it. Neither do many of the nationalists who post on here regularly. Whatever your revolution is, you need to have people like us on board.

SafeSurfer · 24-08-2010 10:50PM

If we were not a catholic country would this have happened?

While serving as Minister for Education, Woods signed a controversial agreement with 18 Irish religious orders involved in child sex-abuse scandals which limited their compensation liability to the victims of abuse to only €128 million. This compensation scheme is project to eventually cost the Irish government, and therefore the Irish tax payers, €1.35 billion. The agreement was signed just before the 2002 general election, and consequently was not laid before the cabinet for its approval. It then remained unpublished for several months.
In 2003 after brokering the deal, Woods claimed his strong Catholic faith made him the most suitable person to negotiate the deal. He also denied allegations that he was a member of Opus Dei or the Knights of Saint Columbanus after the group Survivors of Child Abuse alleged he was a member of the former

The fifth of June 2002 was the last day of Bertie Ahern's first government, the day Michael Woods signed off on the indemnity deal. Every one of the 15 ministers who walked away from the cabinet room after the final meeting of that government had been educated in a Catholic-run school. The three ministers who were pivotal to the immunity deal – Bertie Ahern, Michael Woods and finance minister Charlie McCreevy – all received a Christian Brothers education, as did four more of their colleagues – in other words, half the cabinet.

One of Woods' first overseas trips as education minister was with his wife, Margo, accompanying President McAleese on a visit to the pope in February 1999. He has denied rumours that he is a member of either Opus Dei or the Knights of Columbanus.

During the lifetime of Ahern's second government, he was bestowed with a papal knighthood by the Sacred Military Constantinian Order of St George for his contribution to peace in Northern Ireland and for his "efforts to ensure that the new European Constitution includes references to the continent's Christian foundation and heritage".

President McAleese was also knighted in 2004 for her part in the peace process and for her "commitment to inter-church and inter-faith dialogue". The lord mayor of Dublin at the time, Royston Brady, was the third recipient for the work done by Dublin City Council for homeless people.

Where The Catholic Cabinets of 2000-2002 Were Educated

Bertie Ahern, Taoiseach, St Aidan's Christian Brothers school, Whitehall

Mary Harney, Tánaiste & Minister for Enterprise, Convent of Mercy, Inchicore, and Presentation Convent, Clondalkin

Charlie McCreevy, Minister for Finance, Naas Christian Brothers School and Gormanston College (Franciscan)

Brian Cowen, Minister for Foreign Affairs, Roscrea College (Cistercians)

John O'Donoghue, Minister for Justice, Cahirciveen Christian Brothers school

Joe Walsh, Minister for Agriculture, St Finbarr's College, Farranferris (diocesan school and seminary)

Michael Smith, Minister for Defence, Templemore Christian Brothers school

Michael Woods, Minister for Education, Christian Brothers school, Synge Street

Micheál Martin, Minister for Health, Coláiste Chríost Rí (Presentation Brothers)

Mary O'Rourke, Minister for Public Enterprise, Loreto Convent, Wicklow

Dermot Ahern, Minister for Social, Community & Family Affairs, Marist College, Dundalk

Noel Dempsey, Minister for the Environment, St Michael's CBS, Trim

Frank Fahey, Minister for the Marine, St Mary's College, Galway (diocesan school and seminary)

Jim McDaid, Minister for Tourism, Sport & Recreation, St Eunan's College, Letterkenny (diocesan school and seminary)

Síle de Valera, Minister for Heritage, Gaeltacht & The Islands, Loreto Convent, Foxrock

source http://www.tribune.ie/article/2009/may/31/its-a-thin-line-between-church-state/

philologos · 24-08-2010 10:52PM

flag123 wrote: »

Therefore, people see it as a Catholic country. But in recent years were religion plays less of a role in the lives of the Irish people, we tend to look at it as a free state which is not run by Catholicism, like any other country in the Western World.

According to a Gallup poll done in Europe between 2007 - 2008, 42% of Irish people didn't regard religion as important. In Turkey only 9% didn't regard it as important, but in Estonia 84% didn't regard it as important. We're still in the half of countries that are above average in how positively they regard religion though. Church attendance is also higher than most other European countries (46% weekly, 62% monthly) last November.

Up de Barrs · 24-08-2010 10:54PM

This is the most recent article I can find that shows mass attendance in Ireland - one possible measure of the extent to which we are a Catholic country.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1102/1224257901174.html

According to the survey:
For all adults weekly church attendance is now 46% while for 18-24 year olds it is 31%. 38% of people in Dublin and 56% outside Dublin attend weekly.

Personally I would doubt if the actual figures are anything as high as that. At a very rough guess I would say 20% nationally and no more than 10% in Dublin. I could be underestimating it massively but if I hear friends talking about what they are doing on a Sunday morning I dont often hear about to church.

Celly Smunt · 24-08-2010 10:56PM

this would be an ecumenical matter

Donkey Oaty · 24-08-2010 11:00PM

pmcmahon wrote: »

this would be an ecumenical matter

Feck off!

flas · 24-08-2010 11:00PM

sasser wrote: »

No it's not a Catholic country, and to be honest I'm sick of it interfering with my life in this Republic.

bastards giving me an education...

Celly Smunt · 24-08-2010 11:01PM

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

Feck off!

that would be...yes!

flag123 · 24-08-2010 11:02PM

sasser wrote: »

No it's not a Catholic country, and to be honest I'm sick of it interfering with my life in this Republic.

I take it your an Atheist. Please correct me if i'm wrong.

bleg · 24-08-2010 11:03PM

Jakkass wrote: »

We're still in the half of countries that are above average in how positively they regard religion though.

I would find it surprising if exactly half the countries were above 50% and exactly half were below 50%.

oldyouth · 24-08-2010 11:05PM

Genuine Catholics are being robbed of their heritage and beliefs by the sad bastards that are covering up for the abusers that have gone before them

philologos · 24-08-2010 11:05PM

bleg wrote: »

I would find it surprising if exactly half the countries were above 50% and exactly half were below 50%.

You're correct. Most countries would be above 50%. 26 countries come above Ireland in lack of importance of religion, including many former Soviet / communist countries, and organically secularised countries such as Sweden.

Donkey Oaty · 24-08-2010 11:07PM

bleg wrote: »

I would find it surprising if exactly half the countries were above 50% and exactly half were below 50%.

That would be an ecuemenical matter.

hotmail.com · 24-08-2010 11:15PM

oldyouth wrote: »

Genuine Catholics are being robbed of their heritage and beliefs by the sad bastards that are covering up for the abusers that have gone before them

Genuine Catholics need to get lives if that's the case.

When people say "we are a Catholic country", I think this infers a weird aspiration that they have.

georgieporgy · 24-08-2010 11:30PM

I_AmThe_Walrus wrote: »

Absolutely not.

If evidence was put forth that indeed a God did exist, then I would go to church every Sunday and marvel at his power. As of right now, it doesn't so I don't.

You see, that's the difference between you and I.

You're not prepared to accept the fact that there is no evidence, yet I am if it becomes available.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:OjN7tdIoKdYJ:www.aquinasonline.com/Topics/5ways.html+5+proofs+for+existance+of+god&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie&client=firefox-a

please try this link to see if Thomas Aquinas' arguments persuade you

Truff Puff · 24-08-2010 11:45PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

quite right. If this was a Catholic country, all the pubs would be closed on good friday, the schools and hospitals would be run by the catholic Church and the state broadcaster would run the Angelus at 6pm every day.

Where do people get these daft ideas from?:pac:

We are a catholic nation full stop. -pubs are closed good friday. primary, secondary and third level institutes for the most part do in fact have a catholic foundation

i57dwun4yb1pt8 · 25-08-2010 12:08AM

so we are a country of Kiddy Raping , Women Haters ? ??

Meeoow · 25-08-2010 12:12AM

absolutely Truff puff, people are killing themselves in
England to get their kids into Catholic schools, cause they are streets ahead of the state schools.
if anyone has a problem with Catholic schools or hospitals, why don't they go privately to private schools and hospitals

Sticky_Fingers · 25-08-2010 12:25AM

flas wrote: »

bastards giving me an education...

Who paid to give you the education, Rome?

Pace2008 · 25-08-2010 01:18AM

Up de Barrs wrote: »

According to the survey:
For all adults weekly church attendance is now 46% while for 18-24 year olds it is 31%.

I simply cannot believe that. 10% would have seemed a very generous estimate to me, but then perhaps I'm just looking at the circles in which I move - where the mass attendance would be 0%, despite a majority of my friends being weakly theist - and I'm not seeing the full picture.

Owwmykneecap · 25-08-2010 01:46AM

Meeoow wrote: »

absolutely Truff puff, people are killing themselves in
England to get their kids into Catholic schools, cause they are streets ahead of the state schools.
if anyone has a problem with Catholic schools or hospitals, why don't they go privately to private schools and hospitals

We ****ing pay for the schools.

"We are a Catholic country"

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