"We are a Catholic country"

Killer Pigeon

Long live the Atheist Republic of Boards!

sensibleken

Dave! wrote: »

If you're hedging your bets, why go with Christianity? Just because you happen to have been born into a country where Christianity is the popular religion?

Why don't you worship Zeus or Thor or Ba'al?

Also, what if the real God is more likely to be angry and vengeful if you worship other (false) gods, as opposed to none at all? Then staying impartial is surely a wiser strategy?

If you're hedging your bets, then big assumptions are required.

Actually if we're going to hedge our bets statistically we would be better off going for a pantheistic religion. The guys you mentionsed are good. But The Dagda sure can party and The Morrigan is a bit of alright too.

SafeSurfer

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Don't confuse Catholic (Or any Church's for that matter) doctrine with Christianity.

The basic teachings of Christianity are simple rules that the human race has based it's existence on. Basically respect and tolerance.

The basic teachings of christianity are alot more than respect and tolerance, you make it sound like 1960's hippy commune.

The beliefs common to almost all christians are based on the Apostles Creed 2nd to 9th centuries AD.

1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.2. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.5. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again.6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.8. I believe in the Holy Spirit,9. the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints,10. the forgiveness of sins,11. the resurrection of the body,12. and life everlasting.Amen.


These are the basic tenets of christian faith. How you can distill the above into two words, respect and tolerance is beyond comprehension.

Fratton Fred

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The basic teachings of christianity are alot more than respect and tolerance, you make it sound like 1960's hippy commune.

The beliefs common to almost all christians are based on the Apostles Creed 2nd to 9th centuries AD.

1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.2. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.5. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again.6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.8. I believe in the Holy Spirit,9. the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints,10. the forgiveness of sins,11. the resurrection of the body,12. and life everlasting.Amen.


These are the basic tenets of christian faith. How you can distill the above into two words, respect and tolerance is beyond comprehension.

there is a small "c" in catholic.

That's the Nicene Creed, I was thinking more along the lines of "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbour as you love yourself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets"

I read that as "Love God", well, that is up to you. "Love thy neighbour", that to me is all about respect and tolerence.

SafeSurfer

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That's the Nicene Creed, I was thinking more along the lines of "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbour as you love yourself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets"

I read that as "Love God", well, that is up to you. "Love thy neighbour", that to me is all about respect and tolerence.

Eh no your wrong, I quoted the Apostles Creed, the binding doctrine of christianity.

The Nicence Creed is

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God,eternally begotten of the Father,God from God, Light from Light,true God from true God,begotten, not made,one in Being with the Father.Through him all things were made.For us men and for our salvation he came down from heavenby the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered, died, and was buried.On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures;he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son.With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.He has spoken through the Prophets.We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.



Summarising christian belief as love god and love thy neighbour is something that few christian theologians would agree with you over. Just look at the history of schisms, splits, wars etc over even much smaller tenets of doctrine.

philologos

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Summarising christian belief as love god and love thy neighbour is something that few christian theologians would agree with you over. Just look at the history of schisms, splits, wars etc over even much smaller tenets of doctrine.

I thought it was the fulfillment of the law and the prophets. Indeed, of course the actual theology is much more meaty, but in reality all of the tenets of Christianity really come down to two categories:

1) Love the Lord your God with all your heart with all your soul and with all your mind.
2) Love your neighbour as yourself.

Although, many try to emphasise the second rather than the first. In reality, in Christian living both must go together, and of course there are more mechanics in these. For example, how does one love the Lord God with all their heart, soul and mind? For the Christian that is through the recognition of Jesus' saving death on the cross.
How does one love ones neighbour as themselves, by realising how the self-sacrifice of Christ affected us, and to know what it is like to be loved ourselves.

Fratton Fred

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Eh no your wrong, I quoted the Apostles Creed, the binding doctrine of christianity.

The Nicence Creed is

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God,eternally begotten of the Father,God from God, Light from Light,true God from true God,begotten, not made,one in Being with the Father.Through him all things were made.For us men and for our salvation he came down from heavenby the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered, died, and was buried.On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures;he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son.With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.He has spoken through the Prophets.We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.



Summarising christian belief as love god and love thy neighbour is something that few christian theologians would agree with you over. Just look at the history of schisms, splits, wars etc over even much smaller tenets of doctrine.

I always get my creeds mixed up. catholic still has a small c though:D

OK, lets not get into a theological war over this. I fail to see how the basic teachings of Christianity are a threat to anyone, least of all a republic.

So what if this is a Catholic country (large C that time), the basic teachings are not fundementally evil as many people like to make out.

goose2005

Up de Barrs wrote: »

This is the most recent article I can find that shows mass attendance in Ireland - one possible measure of the extent to which we are a Catholic country.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1102/1224257901174.html

According to the survey:
For all adults weekly church attendance is now 46% while for 18-24 year olds it is 31%. 38% of people in Dublin and 56% outside Dublin attend weekly.

Personally I would doubt if the actual figures are anything as high as that. At a very rough guess I would say 20% nationally and no more than 10% in Dublin. I could be underestimating it massively but if I hear friends talking about what they are doing on a Sunday morning I dont often hear about to church.

And if you cross off those who go to church out of habit or so that their mammies don't disown them, the number gets even smaller.

flag123

I see religion these days as more of a cultural aspect to people's lives rather than control and influence, which is good, because people can live their lives believing or not believing in Ireland as it's predominantly catholic.

But when religions like islamic are the majority, lifestyles are controlled by it and extreme laws are set in place. Even looking at muslims that go to Christian countries, they continue carrying in their culture and extremist views in some case.

30% of Europe is believed to be muslim by the year 2050. Scary fact, mainly because Western Europe's verge out of the dark ages and got it where it is today, was due to Christianity views.

Something needs to be done.

SafeSurfer

flag123 wrote: »

I see religion these days as more of a cultural aspect to people's lives rather than control and influence, which is good, because people can live their lives believing or not believing in Ireland as it's predominantly catholic.

But when religions like islamic are the majority, lifestyles are controlled by it and extreme laws are set in place. Even looking at muslims that go to Christian countries, they continue carrying in their culture and extremist views in some case.

30% of Europe is believed to be muslim by the year 2050. Scary fact, mainly because Western Europe's verge out of the dark ages and got it where it is today, was due to Christianity views.

Something needs to be done.

The Muslim Europe myth has been roundly debunked. See below

http://www.newsweek.com/2009/07/10/why-fears-of-a-muslim-takeover-are-all-wrong.html

The reason why western civilisation today can still read the works of Plato, Aristotle, Pythagoras etc is because they were preserved by Muslim scholars in Muslim libraries. It was not christianity that delivered the west from ignorance.

Just today on radio 1 with Pat Kenny an author was describing in his new book about the crusades how a muslim knight was lamenting the loss of his collection of 4,000 books in a shipwreck. Contrast that with the christian knights who mostly could neither read nor write.

I_AmThe_Walrus

Can we stop with this cult drivel now?

Seriously, it's not 1000AD....it's seriously starting to get old.

philologos

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The reason why western civilisation today can still read the works of Plato, Aristotle, Pythagoras etc is because they were preserved by Muslim scholars in Muslim libraries. It was not christianity that delivered the west from ignorance.

Agreed, the Islamic presence in Europe did benefit philosophy and other science. That's factually correct. It is also disingenuous to suggest that Christianity has had no positive effect on Europe.

Owwmykneecap

Jakkass wrote: »

Can I be assured that my taxes won't fund or support the legalisation of either abortion and / or euthanasia without bringing either before referendum?

In terms of social issues there are two sides to every objection.

Not even remotely relevant.


Point is: People are supposed to be guaranteed a free education in this republic free from religion. This is not the case when the vast majority of people have no real choice over which schools they can attend and 90%+ are run in some way by the catholic church.


Why should a gay teenager not be able to go school and learn without being told he is a sinner.
It's a ****ing disgrace.

philologos

Owwmykneecap wrote: »

Point is: People are supposed to be guaranteed a free education in this republic free from religion. This is not the case when the vast majority of people have no real choice over which schools they can attend and 90%+ are run in some way by the catholic church.

Constitutionally, there should be a greater choice. I've argued that all the way through the thread if you'd been reading what I've said about education.

Owwmykneecap wrote: »

Why should a gay teenager not be able to go school and learn without being told he is a sinner.
It's a ****ing disgrace.

I've not heard one case in any school where this has occurred. In Christianity, one of the key points is that we've all sinned. I.E - I am no more or no less a sinner than anyone else according to that belief system. (It seems a lot of people misunderstand what is meant by the word 'sin' anyway)

IT-Guy

Jakkass wrote: »

Constitutionally, there should be a greater choice. I've argued that all the way through the thread if you'd been reading what I've said about education.



I've not heard one case in any school where this has occurred. In Christianity, one of the key points is that we've all sinned. I.E - I am no more or no less a sinner than anyone else according to that belief system. (It seems a lot of people misunderstand what is meant by the word 'sin' anyway)

This is one of my biggest irks about Catholicism, that before we're even born, self-aware and responsible for our actions we've done something "wrong", we're all equals in the negative sense! Also the very concept of confession and introducing it to kids at such an early age - why the hell should any child have to apologise to some fictional deity for being a kid and doing things that kids do? Sowing the seeds of doubt, depression and low self esteem there. I know for a fact any kids I have will never have to worry about being struck down by some vengeful God nor have to apologise to him for being normal. I cannot wait until all forms of religion are banned from public life, your religion should be like your sex life - private, nobody else's business and definitely not forced on anyone else!

Owwmykneecap

That's just great, in a country with high suicide rates, especially amongst young people, people defend the idea of institutionally labelling those that are already different as sinners.

You haven't heard of a school doing it? Any school with a catholic RE dept. does it.

MardiB

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

There shouldn't be the choice between exclusion and indoctrination for a child. They are in school to learn, not to 'study' religion or prepare for rituals - that is an outside and optional activity, and one that should not come near a school.

I agree 100% As Richard Dawkins puts it, there is no such thing as a catholic or protestant child etc, they are simply children of catholic and protestant parents. Children begin to be indoctrined at about five years old in most of Irish schools and it's wrong, Raise your children how you wish in your own time.

MySelf56

I don't goto church, at the same time i don't consider my self atheist or follow other religions.

Don't get me wrong how many schools built by govt vs church? how many old age homes maintained voluntary church? how many hospitals built by church? Marriages, communion etc are still strong.

Why to be shamed following your catholic beliefs or just any other religion. Just like there is no perfect human religion is also not perfect. Every religion has its pit falls.

I don't think we have Budha purnima holiday or diwali as holiday or Ramdan as holiday for starter so it is not even secular. So what? majority of the used to practice catholic tradition still they are in vast numbers. Because every one driving german cars with borrowed money doesn't mean not disrepect fellow human or country man.

Min

Richard Dawkins... The man who said he was wrong to let his daughter believe in Santa Claus...he probably told her how to think.

Boxoffrogs

Min wrote: »

Richard Dawkins... The man who said he was wrong to let his daughter believe in Santa Claus...he probably told her how to think.

You're so wrong, in fact he told her to question everything she is told including things he might tell her himself.

SafeSurfer

MySelf56 wrote: »

I don't goto church, at the same time i don't consider my self atheist or follow other religions.

Don't get me wrong how many schools built by govt vs church? how many old age homes maintained voluntary church? how many hospitals built by church? Marriages, communion etc are still strong.

Why to be shamed following your catholic beliefs or just any other religion. Just like there is no perfect human religion is also not perfect. Every religion has its pit falls.

I don't think we have Budha purnima holiday or diwali as holiday or Ramdan as holiday for starter so it is not even secular. So what? majority of the used to practice catholic tradition still they are in vast numbers. Because every one driving german cars with borrowed money doesn't mean not disrepect fellow human or country man.

So thats a don't know?

Min

diddledum wrote: »

You're so wrong, in fact he told her to question everything she is told including things he might tell her himself.

I hope she did question the rubbish he spouts, he gives information to suit his point of view and leaves out the information that doesn't suit his views.

rainbow kirby

Min wrote: »

I hope she did question the rubbish he spouts, he gives information to suit his point of view and leaves out the information that doesn't suit his views.

Kettle, pot, black.

Min

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Kettle, pot, black.

I don't think so but I take that as you not disagreeing with my post :P

flag123

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The Muslim Europe myth has been roundly debunked. See below

http://www.newsweek.com/2009/07/10/why-fears-of-a-muslim-takeover-are-all-wrong.html

Interesting. I couldn't find the exact evidence from last post but remembered reading the fact somewhere.

Well thank God for that:p

MardiB

Min wrote: »

I hope she did question the rubbish he spouts, he gives information to suit his point of view and leaves out the information that doesn't suit his views.

Have you read ' The god delusion'?

What information do you think he leaves out? You cannot prove the existence of an infinite being, the creation of the world in seven days, heaven etc. You can prove science and evolution.

farna_boy

Owwmykneecap wrote: »

Not even remotely relevant.


Point is: People are supposed to be guaranteed a free education in this republic free from religion. This is not the case when the vast majority of people have no real choice over which schools they can attend and 90%+ are run in some way by the catholic church.


Why should a gay teenager not be able to go school and learn without being told he is a sinner.
It's a ****ing disgrace.

I've asked the question previously and no one seemed to know (or maybe didnt reply): What percentage of fundiong is provided by the church to Catholic schools? Someone mentioned that the state pays for the state curriculum to be taught but in the case of religious run or private schools, does the state pay for anything else? If the "owner" of the school (be it religious, private, whatever) pays for a larger percentage of the schools funding shouldn't they be able to teach waht they want, as long as it doesn't contradict the state curriculum. Until the state buys the schools, I don't think the state can dictate what is taught outside its curriculum.

Owwmykneecap wrote: »

That's just great, in a country with high suicide rates, especially amongst young people, people defend the idea of institutionally labelling those that are already different as sinners.

You haven't heard of a school doing it? Any school with a catholic RE dept. does it.

That is an Irish problem and totally separate to religion. According to most on here, Ireland these days is a lot less theistic than it claims to be, especailly among younger people and yet you claim the reason people are killing themselves is because of religion? Which is it?

MardiB wrote: »

Have you read ' The god delusion'?

What information do you think he leaves out? You cannot prove the existence of an infinite being, the creation of the world in seven days, heaven etc. You can prove science and evolution.

Likewise, nothing can be proven prior to the big bang. We can prove things that happened just after the big bang (micro, maybe even nano seconds after) but the truth is we will never know how the universe started. The Catholic church does support evolution and that what was taught to me in school (a seminary).

philologos

IT-Guy wrote: »

This is one of my biggest irks about Catholicism, that before we're even born, self-aware and responsible for our actions we've done something "wrong", we're all equals in the negative sense!

Christian denominations differ on that. Personally, I would say that we are born with the inclination (or ability) to sin. However, it's obvious to us all that we have done things wrong at least once in our lives.

People don't like to hear it, but its true.

As for sowing depression and so on. The point of Christianity is that it is good news not bad news. If we accept the Gospel, we can become new people and have a deep relationship with God, and be freed from sin.

sensibleken

Personally I think the catholic church should be declared an illegal organisation and kicked out of the country. minority opinion i know but there you go.

But were slowly become less catholic country and i think the slide toward secularism is inevitable considering how the church conduct themselves

sensibleken

Jakkass wrote: »

Christian denominations differ on that. Personally, I would say that we are born with the inclination (or ability) to sin. However, it's obvious to us all that we have done things wrong at least once in our lives.

People don't like to hear it, but its true.

As for sowing depression and so on. The point of Christianity is that it is good news not bad news. If we accept the Gospel, we can become new people and have a deep relationship with God, and be freed from sin.

you see I see this as selling people things they dont need. convince them they have a woodworm infestation and then seel them the poison. convince them they are covered in sin and sell them the gospel.

yes weve all done things were not proud of but a lot of us are good people and not inherently sinners.