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"We are a Catholic country"

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    #302
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    sensibleken wrote: »
    you see I see this as selling people things they dont need. convince them they have a woodworm infestation and then seel them the poison. convince them they are covered in sin and sell them the gospel.

    Of course if you don't think that 1) this is the truth, 2) that believing in God is important and beneficial, and 3) that there are decisions to be made here on earth about the here-after then you won't see there as being a need.

    As for convincing people they are full of sin. It's not really about convincing. To me it's obvious that I have done terrible things, dare I say it's probably quite obvious in most peoples lives. I.E - It's reality not fiction.

    As for "selling" them the Gospel. There is no tangible benefit to me for sharing it with other people. So "selling" isn't the right word. Normally, it's just out of a care for other people.
    sensibleken wrote: »
    yes weve all done things were not proud of but a lot of us are good people and not inherently sinners.

    We have a difference in opinion on what is a good person. I believe that people can do good things, but doing good things while still having done bad things doesn't make us 'good people'.


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    #303
    King Felix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 532 ✭✭✭King Felix


    Jakkass wrote: »
    If we accept the Gospel, we can become new people and have a deep relationship with God, and be freed from sin.


    What does that mean in actual, tangible terms?


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    #304
    u140acro3xs7dm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭u140acro3xs7dm


    If this was a Catholic Country over half of the population would go to mass. I am not sure of the figures but I seriously doubt 2.1 million people head off to mass every week. So if over half of the population DON'T go to mass how can this be a catholic Country?


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    #305
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Of course if you don't think that 1) this is the truth, 2) that believing in God is important and beneficial, and 3) that there are decisions to be made here on earth about the here-after then you won't see there as being a need.

    As for convincing people they are full of sin. It's not really about convincing. To me it's obvious that I have done terrible things, dare I say it's probably quite obvious in most peoples lives. I.E - It's reality not fiction.

    As for "selling" them the Gospel. There is no tangible benefit to me for sharing it with other people. So "selling" isn't the right word. Normally, it's just out of a care for other people.



    We have a difference in opinion on what is a good person. I believe that people can do good things, but doing good things while still having done bad things doesn't make us 'good people'.


    Getting more converts leads to monitary gain and further power of numbers for the sect so in some cases selling is the appropriate word (though im not necesarily refering to yourself)

    It seems you have a lot of guilt about some of the things youve done. Grand. So have I, we just go about it in differnt ways. Instead of asking an invisible force to forgive me I try and make amends with the person Ive wronged. If i cant then ill make sure i never do it again.

    Know i know you probably do the same in addition to asking forgiveness from god but i just don't see the point in asking god for forgiveness.

    Its like when you were a kid and you hit your sister. You'd apologise to your mam if you were caught and she might say 'don't apologise to me, apologise to your sister'. Now if we do that as adults its just plain insulting to the person weve wronged if we look for forgiveness from someone who had nothing to do with what we did.

    now you could say that any sin offends god and therefore we need to ask his forgiveness. But if hes that touchy then hes not much of a supreme being


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    #306
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    sensibleken wrote: »
    Getting more converts leads to monitary gain and further power of numbers for the sect so in some cases selling is the appropriate word (though im not necesarily refering to yourself)

    This assumes that Christian churches generally make a profit. By the by, telling people about the Gospel doesn't necessarily mean that you will tell them to go to church X or Y. It just means that you are telling them about how Christianity works, and generally only if people are genuinely curious.
    sensibleken wrote: »
    seems you have a lot of guilt about some of the things youve done. Grand. So have I, we just go about it in differnt ways. Instead of asking an invisible force to forgive me I try and make amends with the person Ive wronged. If i cant then ill make sure i never do it again.

    At present, I don't have any guilt involved. You mention that you make it up to the person you've wronged, this is true, but I'd also hold that I've disobeyed God's standard by doing what is wrong, and as such I need to repent and to be put right with Him.
    sensibleken wrote: »
    now you could say that any sin offends god and therefore we need to ask his forgiveness. But if hes that touchy then hes not much of a supreme being

    Sin is falling short of God's standard usually by willful disobedience. It's not about being "touchy" either.

    Most people wouldn't say that the State is touchy for giving our nation laws. In the same way I wouldn't consider it touchy for God to give us laws to best live our lives in His world.


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    #307
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Eve Flaky Joyrider wrote: »
    If this was a Catholic Country over half of the population would go to mass. I am not sure of the figures but I seriously doubt 2.1 million people head off to mass every week. So if over half of the population DON'T go to mass how can this be a catholic Country?

    As long as over half the country has been baptised catholic they will say they are in the majority.


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    #308
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    King Felix wrote: »
    What does that mean in actual, tangible terms?

    Tangible terms for the individual? - I'd say that people become much more focused on how to live the best lives they can according to God's standard and see more clearly how things fit into the overall meaning of life.


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    #309
    King Felix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 532 ✭✭✭King Felix


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Tangible terms for the individual? - I'd say that people become much more focused on how to live the best lives they can according to God's standard and see more clearly how things fit into the overall meaning of life.

    I meant in terms of the statement you made.

    -You accept the Gospel.
    -You become a new person.
    -You have a deep relationship with God.
    -And you are freed from sin.

    How exactly does that work?


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    #310
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    MardiB wrote: »
    Have you read ' The god delusion'?

    What information do you think he leaves out? You cannot prove the existence of an infinite being, the creation of the world in seven days, heaven etc. You can prove science and evolution.

    I didn't read the whole book, just bits of it as it mostly insults one's intelligence and panders to his mostly atheist audience.

    In dealing with Fatima he said “it may seem improbable that seventy thousand people could simultaneously deluded, or could simultaneously collude in a mass lie. Or that history is mistaken in recording that seventy thousand people claimed to see the sun dance. Or that they all simultaneously saw a mirage…But any of those apparent improbabilities is far more probable than the alternative: that the Earth was suddenly yanked sideways in its orbit, and the solar system destroyed, with nobody outside Fatima noticing”

    If he had posted accounts by people who were in Fatima that day, including sceptics, atheists, scientists. He would have exposed that not all were believers, not all expected to see a miracle. A doctor there on the day said they were looking where to where they expected the miracle to happen but they had to turn around to look at the sun.
    Also it was seen within a 18 to 20 mile radius of Fatima, so he got that wrong too.
    Either he left it out or didn't do proper research.


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    #311
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    As long as over half the country has been baptised catholic they will say they are in the majority.

    and the sad thing is i would use countmeout.com if i didnt think my children would be descriminated against in schools


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    #312
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    King Felix wrote: »
    I meant in terms of the statement you made.

    -You accept the Gospel.
    -You become a new person.
    -You have a deep relationship with God.
    -And you are freed from sin.

    How exactly does that work?

    Biblically - Jesus was sinless (Hebrews 4:15), and Jesus took the sin of the world upon Him (John 3:16-18), so that we might not have to bear the punishment ourselves.

    Christians believe that by Jesus' death, our sin died with Him, and by Jesus' Resurrection we become alive again through Him, formerly we were slaves to sin, now we have been freed to become slaves to righteousness. (Romans 6:1-23).

    Our sins separate us from God (Isaiah 59:2). By having our sins separated from us, we are able to be reconciled with God the Father once more.

    That's how theologically it works. I found the whole thing to be quite amazing the first time when I was reading through it.

    Edit:
    MardiB wrote: »
    Have you read ' The god delusion'?

    What information do you think he leaves out? You cannot prove the existence of an infinite being, the creation of the world in seven days, heaven etc. You can prove science and evolution.

    I preferred Christopher Hitchens' take. He has a better appetite for humour.


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    #313
    rossie1977
    Registered Users Posts: 11,343 ✭✭✭✭rossie1977


    Min wrote: »
    I didn't read the whole book, just bits of it as it mostly insults one's intelligence and panders to his mostly atheist audience.

    In dealing with Fatima he said “it may seem improbable that seventy thousand people could simultaneously deluded, or could simultaneously collude in a mass lie. Or that history is mistaken in recording that seventy thousand people claimed to see the sun dance. Or that they all simultaneously saw a mirage…But any of those apparent improbabilities is far more probable than the alternative: that the Earth was suddenly yanked sideways in its orbit, and the solar system destroyed, with nobody outside Fatima noticing"

    so you believe the sun danced in the sky?? wasn't that supposed to have happened in knock last year too ;)

    surely if the sun danced in the sky the rest of the world would see it, not just fatima and knock.........


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    #314
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Tangible terms for the individual? - I'd say that people become much more focused on how to live the best lives they can according to God's standard and ......

    Would that be the Catholic gods standard, the Presbyterian Gods standard, the Free Presbyterian Gods standard, the Jewish Gods standard, the muslim Gods standard, the loads of Hindu Gods standards......?


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    #315
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Nodin wrote: »
    Would that be the Catholic gods standard, the Presbyterian Gods standard, the Free Presbyterian Gods standard, the Jewish Gods standard, the muslim Gods standard, the loads of Hindu Gods standards......?

    As a Christian I believe there is only one God, if people wish to believe in numerous other gods, that is their prerogative. It is up for people to investigate for themselves on the issue.


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    #316
    skregs
    Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭skregs


    sasser wrote: »
    Another discussion about religion on Ray Darcy, and some fool texted in saying “We are a Catholic country”. I have heard this a lot recently and it drives me INSANE. We are not a Catholic country, we are a REPUBLIC. A country doesn’t have a religion anyway, but we are a REPUBLIC!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

    nothing stops a republic being a catholic country


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    #317
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Jakkass wrote: »
    As a Christian I believe there is only one God, if people wish to believe in numerous other gods, that is their prerogative. It is up for people to investigate for themselves on the issue.


    O. just the christians? That narrows it down a bit....
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations


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    #318
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Nodin wrote: »
    O. just the christians? That narrows it down a bit....
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

    Obvious answer: I believe there is only one God. Most of these denominations are the result mostly of either differences in practice and expression of worship, or in terms of minor theological differences. Such differences tend to be over exaggerated.


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    #319
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    rossie1977 wrote: »
    so you believe the sun danced in the sky?? wasn't that supposed to have happened in knock last year too ;)

    surely if the sun danced in the sky the rest of the world would see it, not just fatima and knock.........

    Not the same, nobody got eye damage in Fatima and they had their backs turned to the sun when it started.

    In Knock you had people staring at the sun.

    Are there any reports of atheists seeing anything at Knock?

    The children in Fatima were promised a miracle, the whole definition of the word 'miracle' means it would be unexplainable.


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    #320
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    sensibleken wrote: »
    and the sad thing is i would use countmeout.com if i didnt think my children would be descriminated against in schools

    What type of discrimination are you worried about?
    Are you not willing to work to live life the way you want and to prepare your kids for questions which may be asked of them?

    8 years ago when my eldest started primary school he wasn't the only non catholic and non christian in the school, he was the only one in his class, my mouther started 2 years later and she is one of 4 in her class who are not catholic. As along as you communicate well with you kids and prepare them they will be fine.


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    #321
    ItsAWindUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,325 ✭✭✭ItsAWindUp


    skregs wrote: »
    nothing stops a republic being a catholic country

    What about when it has religious laws?


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    #322
    Manic Preacher
    Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭Manic Preacher


    I feel your anger Sasser but what's the point in getting worked up? The church are writing the annals of their own downfall right now and in 30 years time church attendances will be as low as they are in Britain.


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    #323
    skregs
    Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭skregs


    ItsAWindUp wrote: »
    What about when it has religious laws?

    could have religious laws, could have bishops as the head of state. as long as those bishops are democratically elected, you're living in a republic.
    North Korea is a republic, doesn't mean its a bastion of liberty and free-thinking


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    #324
    PeterIanStaker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭PeterIanStaker


    @Manic Preacher: 30 years? I hope its sooner than that, simply because the RCC is great at shooting itself in the foot, hopefully 10 years. Having said that, you may be right, as there are a lot of stupid people here.


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    #325
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    If your aim is church - state separation, there isn't much of a need for you to wish for the collapse of the actual churches themselves. I thought the objection was to church involvement in State, rather than belief in society.

    Or have people just not been honest enough when giving their opinions thus far?


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    #326
    bleg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭bleg


    I would be in favour of forcibly removing religious influence in state activities but I would not be in favour of forcibly removing belief. Rational thought and debate over the coming decades should be enough.


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    #327
    PeterIanStaker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭PeterIanStaker


    Maybe there isnt much need to wish for the collapse of the churches, but it would help.


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    #328
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    bleg wrote: »
    I would be in favour of forcibly removing religious influence in state activities but I would not be in favour of forcibly removing belief. Rational thought and debate over the coming decades should be enough.

    You are interested in removing belief though?
    PeterIanStaker wrote: »
    Maybe there isnt much need to wish for the collapse of the churches, but it would help.

    I can guarantee you it won't succeed in a general sense. It is probable that the % attendance will decrease further, but it is not probable that one can stop the growth of alternative faiths.


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    #329
    bleg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭bleg


    Jakkass wrote: »
    You are interested in removing belief though?


    Dunno how you can infer that from my post.

    Let it die off naturally over the coming decades.


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    #330
    PeterIanStaker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭PeterIanStaker


    Jakkass wrote: »

    I can guarantee you it won't succeed in a general sense. It is probable that the % attendance will decrease further, but it is not probable that one can stop the growth of alternative faiths.

    Indeed the attendance will continue to decrease as the population ages, but do you think there could be a schism/split in the RCC maybe, with liberals and fundamentalists going their separate ways?


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    #331
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    bleg wrote: »
    Dunno how you can infer that from my post.

    Let it die off naturally over the coming decades.

    You included the word forcibly as a caveat.
    PeterIanStaker wrote:
    Indeed the attendance will continue to decrease as the population ages, but do you think there could be a schism/split in the RCC maybe, with liberals and fundamentalists going their separate ways?

    The RCC isn't the only factor in the equation. Compare the growth rate in some of the other faith groups.

    Between 2002 - 2006:
    A smattering of particularly high growth rates from non-dominant faiths.
    Islam (69.9%)
    Christian (unspecified) (36.5%)
    Evangelical (39.6%)
    Orthodox (99.3%)
    Apostolic or Pentecostal (157.5%)
    Hindu (96.3%)
    Secular growth rates:
    Atheist (85.8%)
    Agnostic (47.4%)
    No religion (34.8%)
    Not stated (-11.1%)
    Lapsed RC (-8.5%)

    It seems to be a mixed bag. I'm looking forward to the 2011 census to see what differences there will be.


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