Institutional abuse was "endemic".. - MERGED

Black Dog · 21-05-2009 8:29pm

Overblood wrote: »

Are we allowed to quote from the report? Can I quote a passage that includes "penis" and "mouth" in close proximity?

Have you not already done it?

Consider for a moment, Overblood, you hesitiated to post the contents of this report for fear of being offensive yet this report has been written in a manner and in a style aimed at not causing offence or further hurt. Imagine, then, the extraordinary hurt of the children who actually experienced these things we hesitate to even mention.

They are so terrible that to talk about them is uncomfortable yet young children experienced this.

philologos · 21-05-2009 8:30pm

CiaranC wrote: »

If an organisation sets itself up as a ritual and systematic abuser of children, then it naturally follows that it should be reviled.

Did the Pope do this? Just curious. I think the case is more that priests abused their positions rather than the Church organising a systematic plan of abuse.

CiaranC wrote: »

The catholic church facilitated over 800 individuals in dozens of institutions as child rapists. It was aware of the rapists and torturers from the very top of the organisation and actively protected them for 50 years.

Again a minority of the Catholic Church.

CiaranC wrote: »

I am not interest in seeing the catholic church "change", any more than I am interested in seeing a new, modernised, PR-spun Khmer Rouge.

Of course you don't because I assume you don't care about Catholicism in general? I'm personally not an adherent myself but I would like the Catholic Church to deal with this issue adequately and to reform their own power structures so nothing like this could be allowed to happen again. Just as much as people reformed the German state after the Holocaust.

CiaranC wrote: »

Who are these individuals who were decent and well meaning and "may" have tried to do something? How can you separate the membership of such an organisation from the organisation itself? Are we now to forgive every such organisations on the strength that some in them were merely complicit and not active?

We're talking about separating some of the membership of the Church who did wrong, from the Church itself. That's the way I would see it anyway. Dudess no doubt may well differ.

I personally would rather that the practice in Christianity in Ireland changed so that we could all be guardians of the Gospel who hold our priests and pastors to account by the words of the Holy Scripture.

I know you mightn't care much for the Bible, but I found this passage to be poignant concerning this very issue:

James 3:1 wrote:

Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers and sisters,[URL="javascript:void(0);"]*[/URL] for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

People blindly trusted the church, and after a while instead of learning themselves, they expected the priests to learn for them. Thats my reasoning behind it anyway.

Dudess · 21-05-2009 8:33pm

CiaranC wrote: »

Everyone knew it was going on. Everyone. Everyone was told which priests to watch out for.

My mother had the misfortune to be born into a poor family, the youngest of 13. Her father died while her mother was pregnant with her, leaving the family almost destitude and a prime target for these vultures.

She was never allowed to be alone. She was instructed, under punishment of death, never, ever to go near the augustinian college. Her siblings were instructed to travel in groups while in school, even while on the streets.

Indeed I have heard of that too, but I think it could have depended on certain factors (what, I don't know) - I asked my parents who are in their 60s if they were warned of priests to keep away from: they swore they weren't. My mother isn't religious, my father is, but nowhere near to the point of being an apologist for those bastards.
Also, if there were young men who entered the priesthood knowing there were some within it who abused their position, maybe they naively thought "I'll make a difference, I'll be one of the good guys, I'll protect the kids". We just don't know - it's not right to be black and white about things.

deadhead13 · 21-05-2009 8:38pm

Jakkass wrote: »

but to revile the whole Catholic Church for a minority of priests and nuns is a bit extreme.

This isn't just about a few rotten apples in the system, the system as a whole was rotten - The Judical System, The Department of Education, The Department of Social Welfare, The Religious Orders, The Guards, The ISPCC Inspectors, the farmers who used cheap industrial school labour...etc were all culpable. As for the perpetrators of abuse - more than 800 priests, bothers, nuns and lay people were implicated

The Religious Orders, particulaly the Christian Brothers, were not exactly helpful to this Enquiry

Dudess · 21-05-2009 8:45pm

And just to add to my last point: some young men were forced to join the priesthood.

CiaranC · 21-05-2009 8:49pm

Jackass, I wont address all your points mate, Im going to bow out of this one before the AH crowd arrive

Jakkass wrote: »

Just as much as people reformed the German state after the Holocaust.

A semantic point maybe, but they created a new German state, they didnt attempt to reform the Nazi Party from the good guys left over.

We're talking about separating some of the membership of the Church who did wrong, from the Church itself.

Thats smacks of rationalising what happened to me. Im not sure you will get far with that tack with a lot of people.

I have nothing against the Bible (Ive read the NT) per se, or even christianity, but Im no christian (as you might have guessed

).

I have a huge issue with the catholic church. It should pay, and pay dearly for its crimes against humanity here. Ultimately, it will die a slow death. It wont be missed.

I would hope good christians, of which there are many, would take a look at other churches who did not engage in systematic abuse of power to prey on the most vulnerable in our society, examine their conscious, and make a decision to leave this church and its legacy behind.

Dyr · 21-05-2009 8:53pm

Dudess wrote: »

I'm surprised there was a distinction between the two types - I thought the church and state were inextricably linked.

Again though, wasn't the church's power that huge that it was pretty much in cahoots with the state?

There was, the church wasnt the only institution that thought itself above reproach

Yup it was in cahoots with the state, and it was the church and the social mores that it promoted that made these kids so vulnerable.

But it was not the church alone, the state ran plenty of mental institutions etc where the medical profession (for example) were implicit in cruelty and neglect. . My aunt worked as cleaner in one place where a young girl who was agrophobic was tied to a lampost in the grounds for hours in rain, hail and shine to "cure" her. It wasnt priests who did that.

I believe that twenty years from more scandals might come to light that are happening NOW and irish people will ask again how we could have let it happen. The answer will be the same, we couldn't bring yourselves to accept what was going on because it would threaten the values that our society was based on.

CiaranC · 21-05-2009 9:04pm

Last post on the matter, just saw this. The point that it was just a minority of priests in Ireland who were to blame for this is nonsense.

Australia, Austria, Brazil, Britain, Canada, Croatia, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Italy, Mexico, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Peru, The Phillipines, Poland, Slovenia, The USA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases_by_country

Catholic clergy paedophile rapists operating in every one of these countries. Is it supposed to be just a coincidence that all these things happened, in all these places, under all these different types of government, in all these different cultures.

Dan Brown eat your heart out.

Dyr · 21-05-2009 9:07pm

Would there be paedo teachers in each of these countries as well?? The conspiracy widens...

slippy wicket · 21-05-2009 9:12pm

Hanging is to good for these evil perverse bastards. All assets of these twisted satanic orders should be taken into public ownership and used to fund payouts to the victims. The only way to make this sick cult sit up and take notice is to hit them on the balance sheet.

carlop · 21-05-2009 9:19pm

CiaranC wrote: »

Last post on the matter, just saw this. The point that it was just a minority of priests in Ireland who were to blame for this is nonsense.

Australia, Austria, Brazil, Britain, Canada, Croatia, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Italy, Mexico, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Peru, The Phillipines, Poland, Slovenia, The USA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases_by_country

Catholic clergy paedophile rapists operating in every one of these countries. Is it supposed to be just a coincidence that all these things happened, in all these places, under all these different types of government, in all these different cultures.

Dan Brown eat your heart out.

I agree with most of what you're saying, and I as much as anyone else want to see the Catholic Church stripped of any power it still holds in this state. However, I can't think of a motive as to why the Church as an institution would want to have such a network of paedophile priests under its command?

I'm not saying that you're wrong, I just can't think of why they would. Hitler had his own reasons for killing the Jews, they were utterly reprehensible, moronic reasons, but he ultimately thought he stood to benefit from their eradication, while he also had a personal intense hatred of Jewish people.

In the case of the Catholic church, I just fail to understand what motive they may have had to systematically abuse children as a church-wide policy.

lisbon_lions · 21-05-2009 9:21pm

This whole thing is absolutely sick. Agreements between church and state, a dirty sweaty handshake. I am absolutely ****ing sick.

This country has failed its most vunerable citizens, its children.

anplaya · 21-05-2009 9:27pm

has anyone on this thread been in schools that were named in the report?i have btw ,any1 else?

shreksaurus · 21-05-2009 10:20pm

This was on tv3 on the midday show earlier. I started roaring crying when I heard the stuff that happened.

Words fail me. Jesus fùcking christ almighty the abusers are beasts.

My mam was telling me earlier about the time she went to primary school. It wouldn't have been as bad as the abuse I heard about today but it was bad all the same. The master used to hit the kids heads of the blackboard if they got a sum wrong amongst other things.

Wonder did any of these fùcking beasts kill a child.

Horrific stuff altogether.

Ann22 · 21-05-2009 10:24pm

Dudess wrote: »

And just to add to my last point: some young men were forced to join the priesthood.

Too right! There would have been a fair bit of pressure put on some to join up. Years ago, it was a huge deal to have a priest in the family. Young teens were sent away to seminaries to prepare and were probably abused themselves there.. at the crucial stage of puberty, when they were learning to deal with their desires and natural instincts. No wonder half of them became perverts ffs!

Ann22 · 21-05-2009 10:29pm

shreksaurus wrote: »

This was on tv3 on the midday show earlier. I started roaring crying when I heard the stuff that happened.

Words fail me. Jesus fùcking christ almighty the abusers are beasts.

My mam was telling me earlier about the time she went to primary school. It wouldn't have been as bad as the abuse I heard about today but it was bad all the same. The master used to hit the kids heads of the blackboard if they got a sum wrong amongst other things.

Wonder did any of these fùcking beasts kill a child.

Horrific stuff altogether.

Sure there were rumours that children went missing off the records in the Artane boys school for one. I'd say there are unmarked graves around it. God!

shreksaurus · 21-05-2009 10:57pm

Ann22 wrote: »

Sure there were rumours that children went missing off the records in the Artane boys school for one. I'd say there are unmarked graves around it. God!

I'm sickened beyond belief as to what those cùnts did to children in their care. To small, young, innoscent, defenceless children. My thoughts and prayers go out to all the victims that suffered from that abuse.

nacho libre · 22-05-2009 1:02am

RealEstateKing wrote: »

stuff, that nobody ever talks about WHY such an enormous amount of abuse happens/happened within the Catholic Church.

It is obvious to anyone who knows how human beings work, that if you ask a human being to suppress their most natural human desire (sex) for their entire life, that in many of them this will come out in other ways, either through violence or through twiseted sexual means, or alcohol/drug abuse.

These people were not born violent peadophilic child abusers, they were made this way by being forced to take a vow of celibacy. Granted some preists managed to remain decent human beings while following this law, but even the most basic psychology tells us that human beings can never really repress desires, merely divert them.

what's the excuse for those who were not priests who, according to the report, also engaged in abuse in these institutions?

there are a lot of retired senior civil servants from the departmant of education, in particular, and the justice department who have a lot of questions to answer for. as well as members of the judiciary.

i suspect there is a sinister reason why many of these people who were in a position to do something, rather than being unable, simply turned a blind eye.

nacho libre · 22-05-2009 1:56am

nacho libre · 22-05-2009 2:02am

Dudess wrote: »

Oh I'm referring to cries of "anti cleric" simply because of the anger over the abuse, not because of people calling all priests paedophiles. In fact, on reflection I'd consider that text to the Today FM breakfast show an example of the former.
Calling all priests paedophiles is of course moronic too though.

such an approach might be undignified for you and others, but if mass hysteria raises people's level of consciousness/ awareness of just how prevalent the crime of sexual abuse is in this country and it lessens the number of future victims of sexual abuse it's a positive occurrence in my view.
of course you will also counter that we risk witch hunts; mob justice and paranoia, but the fact is there are thousands of people from every walk of life who have committed sexual abuse living freely in ireland today who will never be held to account
at least we can make it more difficult for them to offend again if people's awareness is constantly raised and the apparatuses of the state charged with protecting the welfare of children continue to make the necessary changes to safeguard them as much as is humanely possible.

22-05-2009 3:18am

Dudess wrote:

And just to add to my last point: some young men were forced to join the priesthood.

There were plenty of lonely widows to whom they could have "offered their condolences", it's not an excuse to rape children.

jape · 22-05-2009 3:32am

Organized religion = epic fail.

kraggy · 22-05-2009 3:59am

Haven't read through much of this thread but have just finished listening to repeats of todays radio shows and am absolutely livid with one aspect of this in particular.

In 1999, the Government i.e. Bertie and Michael Smith etc, let the Christian Brothers and Sisters of "Mercy" et al off with them contributing land, buildings and a bit of cash as compensation for the victims.

This also bought IMMUNITY from future prosecution or compensatory claims.

So the perpetrators of these despicable acts and those WHOLE institutions which protected these people will NEVER be brought to task over this again.

What stupid ****ing idotic ***** not only agreed to this but actually set it up? Fianna Fáil.

Another reason not to vote for them pricks ever again.

What should have been done, is what happened in Newfoundland in Canada. Similar abuse had been inflicted by the Christian Brothers (many of them Irish) over there too. So, the Canadian Government paid the compensation to the vicitims themselves and when they had that done, they said to the Christian Brothers, right, it's us against you, and they brought them down.

These orders and sects of the Catholic Church should be made pay and be banned from existence.

They are sick establishments that have no right to exist.

watna · 22-05-2009 4:08am

CiaranC wrote: »

My mother had the misfortune to be born into a poor family, the youngest of 13. Her father died while her mother was pregnant with her, leaving the family almost destitude and a prime target for these vultures.
.

I guess that's another contributing factor to the whole thing. Poor families having 13 children because the Catholic church doesn't agree with contraception.

dorothygale · 22-05-2009 4:26am

This is appalling.

I went to a school for boys in the U.S. in the 1990s for a year ran when I was boy. It was ran by the Franciscan Brothers...

Happily I can say I never once experienced any sort of abuse or any kind, however it was easy to tell they were quite twisted and bent individuals who had severely diminished social skills... now it's comical but in hindsight, knowing these monks were responsible for children it's rather scary.

Even though they were our educators they certainly had no interest in teaching us anything and we basically did as we pleased. However being as we were more or less isolated there was not much to do.

Our parents paid an expensive tuition in order for for us to be boarded there so that may have been the reason they never attempted any sort of abuse... the implications of doing so would ruin a good cash cow. I shutter to think what would have happened to me should I have been a ward of the church.

dorothygale · 22-05-2009 4:29am

watna wrote: »

I guess that's another contributing factor to the whole thing. Poor families having 13 children because the Catholic church doesn't agree with contraception.

The Church, the Irish Government, these children's families, and humanity in general let these children down. The only innocents were the children themselves.

dorothygale · 22-05-2009 4:32am

Ann22 wrote: »

Too right! There would have been a fair bit of pressure put on some to join up. Years ago, it was a huge deal to have a priest in the family. Young teens were sent away to seminaries to prepare and were probably abused themselves there.. at the crucial stage of puberty, when they were learning to deal with their desires and natural instincts. No wonder half of them became perverts ffs!

You always have a choice.

fryup · 22-05-2009 7:18am

dorothygale wrote: »

You always have a choice.

yes wake up irish people

Catholism isn't the only religion in the world

watna · 22-05-2009 7:34am

fryup wrote: »

yes wake up irish people

Catholism isn't the only religion in the world

That doesn't even make any sense when it comes to this thread. The state and church were entwined so it's hardly like everyone thought the church was evil and could get it out of their lives easily. This kind of thing was surrounded in secrecy. There was no public outcry and it was all hushed up. There was no backlash to the Catholic Church because of the place it held in Irish society.

fryup · 22-05-2009 7:48am

watna wrote: »

That doesn't even make any sense when it comes to this thread. The state and church were entwined so it's hardly like everyone thought the church was evil and could get it out of their lives easily. This kind of thing was surrounded in secrecy. There was no public outcry and it was all hushed up. There was no backlash to the Catholic Church because of the place it held in Irish society.

point taken, but what i'm basically trying to say is, is that i hope that this is the wake up call that irish people need

maybe now they'll finally break the umbilical cord with the RC church for once and for all and we'll become a truly secular society

fingers crossed

Institutional abuse was "endemic".. - MERGED

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